Battlegrounds 3rd Party Apps...Cheating?

[LightRain-1911]

I don’t think it gets any worse than addressing a common argument in the original post and finding people still repeating that same argument…

@LightRain-1911

I don’t think anyone can make an argument about it being OK or consider it to not be cheating. Blizzard not being able to control it or not caring is another thing.

It’s not like Blizzard has a strong policy to stop people from cheating. They never stopped hackers in SC2

Also, you do realize that in the hypothetical case that Blizzard allows it, one could still consider it cheating right? It’s not like the hold the moral authority just because they created the game. Blizzard itself could be inmoral.

But anyways, I guess you are right, that is why you can use deck trackers in tournaments… Oh no wait…

[Deathy-1302]

@LightRain-1911

So everyone pretty much uses Hearthstone Deck Tracker right now in Battlegrounds… I see every streamer using it. I just got banned in one of the chats for asking if it was cheating and got accused of not playing the game.

Sorry to hear that happen, but most streamer ban that cause it becomes a echo effect and derails the streams or it a meme that annoy’s them.

@LightRain-1911

I don’t think anyone can make an argument about it being OK or consider it to not be cheating. Blizzard not being able to control it or not caring is another thing.

Ok so you want an official statements by blizzard even by their handbook that give GM/Master/tourments?
https://assets.blz-contentstack.com/v3/assets/bltc965041283bac56c/blt9947def28df308cb/60f784a52d26525ef67acd49/Hearthstone_Tournament_Player_Handbook_v_2.7.pdf

also found on here
https://playhearthstone.com/en-us/esports/programs/rules-and-policies

Written Notes and Deck Tracking Software.
(a) Players may make handwritten notes on a blank piece of paper while competing in live and
online Tournament matches. Players may not bring outside notes to the match. Tournament
organizers reserve the right to impose additional requirements on note taking at their sole
discretion. Additional restrictions may include, but are not limited to, requiring that all player
notes be taken using materials provided by the Tournament organizer. All players must allow
any Tournament official to inspect their note-taking materials and written notes upon request.
(b) Players may, at their sole risk and responsibility, use deck tracking software applications
during online Tournament matches subject to the requirements described in this Handbook
(“Deck Tracker(s)”). A Deck Tracker may be used by a player during an online Tournament
match so long as all of the following requirements are met:
i. The Tournament’s specific rules do not prohibit Deck Trackers.
ii. Use of the Deck Tracker complies with all of the terms of this Handbook.
iii. Use of the Deck Tracker complies with all of Blizzard’s Website Terms, which include
but are not limited to the Blizzard End User License Agreement.
iv. The Deck Tracker only provides information to the player that could otherwise be
obtained from the player’s perspective via observation of the unaugmented Hearthstone
game interface.
(c) Failure to adhere to all of the Deck Tracking requirements outlined in Section 5.10(b)may
result in disciplinary action.

Some GM do use Gametracker even though it doesn’t look like while other use notepads, and some even use both. There even been a few Official blizzard events where streamers used deck trackers, and HSReplay at 1 time was specially invited to update their deck tracker with the API staff.

I’ve post’d somewhere inthe past and even you can find this, HSreplay USE to have an mobile deck tracker on the Google App Store but was close due to how the game fetches information as a risk, and since google , the mobile HS team and HSreplay Hearthsim team couldn’t work together to stop any issues, it flew under the radars.

Hearthsim STILL makes the Phone/App to track you just have to do extra loops to install it.

https://github.com/HearthSim/Arcane-Tracker/releases/tag/463
If you want the current decktracker for mobile, just know it won’t be always updated with everything new as it’s a side project now for the team.

Statements from google why they refuse to let it on the app store
https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answer/10467955?hl=en&ref_topic=2364761&visit_id=637647827760668495-2677993689&rd=1

the Official statement from the HS replay team.
https://articles.hsreplay.net/2020/07/22/update-on-arcane-tracker/

But it is there if you actually look for it, so yes everyone can be on same footing, but it wasn’t a thing HS replay team fault they only doing PC, cause you need to do manually install for it now on mobile cause how Google refuse to work with the Hearthsim team and Blizzard on how to fetch information log.

[LightRain-1911]

Man, this is for constructed, not battlegrounds. Deck tracking in constructed can literally be done by hand or even memory.

Now, you can’t possibly remember nor write down the entire board for other 7 players including minion count, position, stats and type can you?

Also write down each minion available on each level.

The fact that you can’t bring outside notes outlined here:

@Deathy-1302

Players may not bring outside notes to the match.

Means you have to remember it previously and rush it down on paper.
So, clearly, the deck tracker telling you which minion is available on each level is putting you on a considerable advantage. We can safely infer this would no be allowed by the rules you just posted.

[Deathy-1302]

@LightRain-1911

Man, this is for constructed, not battlegrounds. Deck tracking in constructed can literally be done by hand or even memory.

No… That the again I will say LEGAL tournament handbook, to ALL HEARTHSTONE GAMES.

@LightRain-1911

Now, you can’t possibly remember nor write down the entire board for other 7 players including minion count, position, stats and type can you?

I can, but some opponents I might never face so I have to hover over their name ingame to make judgements what they might have w/ damage dealt ot taken from last opponent.

@LightRain-1911

Also write down each minion available on each level.

Most ‘streamers’ or even ‘pro players’ generally remember this believe it or not, I even remember over 90% the cards play, and I use Deck tracker.

@LightRain-1911

The fact that you can’t bring outside notes outlined here:

You even know what is classified as outside notes? If not I’ll inform you what it is.

Outside notes are the following - Team Comp setups, best card combos, win rate of each “Hero” from what is T1 and T5, they can’t use those in a an Legal tournament, have you ever been in a Tournament to tell me I’m wrong? The fact you took a book that said “Tournament player handbook” as constructed and not as all hearthstone games. as stated in the book say you don’t know anything about the tournament play. Cause it talks about Hearthstone game client not Standard or wild ranks, in the handbook.

And if you must know how an tournament setting works I’ll enlighten you.

Each player share their screen to a Blizzard/Tournament official at ALL times, this is why some use discord screensharing always when playing in a Tournament, the “cast” normally only see a spectator mode by the Official blizzard Tournament Client which is slightly different from fan tournament or non-official tournament, as there is a Hearthstone Client for Tournament only use. While your login you still have your friendlist, much like you can on the normal client, but is a different client completely.

Mind you this is where you need to reach out to the “tournament organizers” Generally and this is where the FULL screenshare has to be in effect, you might be told to disable some features, so this is why you have prep time before tournament to set things up, Some setting might be ask to turn off, or if majority of players are using it and everyone majority rule over it to not be use, then it can be seen as “not meeting the tournament organizers rules”.

@LightRain-1911

Means you have to remember it previously and rush it down on paper.

Most tournament or ‘pro player’ doesn’t rush down information that doesn’t matter, what they do write down is stat/DR. The fact you never been in the tournament or attempted to play in the scene I don’t think you would understand something chaotic as 22/reborn/Taunt - but to a veteran that could be seen as Acolyte of C’Thun Cause the important part is the 22 attack to that quick scribe down and the card might still have 2 hp or they know their minion meets the attack thresh hold.

@LightRain-1911

So, clearly, the deck tracker telling you which minion is available on each level is putting you on a considerable advantage. We can safely infer this would no be allowed by the rules you just posted.

No, you have that wrong cause again outside notes, is Team Comp for BG, which you should already remember at most point or wing it and not rely on a single team comp to win IE DR Pirate Buff/Best Elemental to keep and buff/DR Beast/ and etc.

Play a Legal Tournament before you act like you know what the rules are as then you can talk to the Organizer and have that debate, But I’m going to safely assume you wouldn’t go that far as you even can talk to Blizzard Tournament staff for a Refence of what is allow and not allow for their own thing even if your not at Tournament level as in the TOURNAMENT HANDBOOK, it says.

If you have any questions or comments about these this Handbook, please email them to
HearthstoneAdmin@blizzard.com or send written questions to: Hearthstone Tournament
Handbook c/o Blizzard Entertainment Esports, P.O. Box 18979, Irvine, CA 93623

[LightRain-1911]

@Deathy-1302

No… That the again I will say LEGAL tournament handbook, to ALL HEARTHSTONE GAMES.

Then the material you provided is way too generic for the matter at hand and thus irrelevant. Although general rules must apply to both, it is clear that Constructed and Battlegrounds are two very different games and have different rules and thus probably have specific handbooks too.

The differences are clear and very well relevant: It is not the same to display information that one can remember or write down in time (played cards in constructed 1v1) to information one cannot (the entire board of 7 additional players and constantly updating it)

@Deathy-1302

I can, but some opponents I might never face so I have to hover over their name ingame to make judgements what they might have w/ damage dealt ot taken from last opponent.

That is not an argument, there is no way you can possibly prove that. You must be some kind of superhuman or maybe just incredibly stubborn, thinking you can actually match the precision of the tracker, surely you will be missing certain details. Or are you actually saying that you remember 100% the board of all 7 players and are able to update it in your mind every time you face them?

Even if you could, there is no denying that having the entire board of all players available through the hover of a mouse is incredibly facilitating.

But let me tell you more, even if you were able to remember 80% of the board and the stats, that extra 20% the app provides could be critical, and thus is giving a slight advantage, there is no denying this.

@Deathy-1302

Most ‘streamers’ or even ‘pro players’ generally remember this believe it or not, I even remember over 90% the cards play, and I use Deck tracker.

90% you say, the tracker does 100%. Also, this is not about pro players only, its about all games across all levels, most people do not remember. The fact that you are using only pro players to close the breach between tracker users and non tracker users gives you away: you know there is an imbalance, you are just trying to make it seem like there is not. When you consider amateur players the difference is VERY relevant.

Still, most don’t, they are lazy and use the tracker, do you watch streams?

@Deathy-1302

You even know what is classified as outside notes? If not I’ll inform you what it is.

Outside notes is just what is sounds like: pre written notes you do not take during a match.

@Deathy-1302

Play a Legal Tournament before you act like you know what the rules are as then you can talk to the Organizer and have that debate

Not an argument, appeal to authority. I don’t need to play a tournament. My arguments are sound and founded in logic and reason. Playing a tournament would not give me any additional knowledge to discuss the matter in hand.

Also, we can safely assume that this handbook you provided is very well outdated

This Handbook contain the governing rules, policies, and procedures for Tournaments that are in effect at the time of their publication

Deck trackers have been developing over time and they have become much more robust than they used to, displaying information that would be otherwise impossible to remember or write down on time.

Edit:

I did write an email and this was the reply:

Hello,

Thanks for reaching out! We don’t currently have any official Hearthstone Esports Battlegrounds events, but any third-party tournaments would be up to the individual tournament organizer.

Thanks,
Eric

So we can completely dismiss your handbook

[chatterbone-2508]

Dude, I gotta hand it to you, your dedication to your opinion is almost admirable. You’re a friggin tank!

I must admit I was a little biased towards you when I noticed you were arguing with Horatio, but to me, it’s clear as day who is being rational here.

As stated earlier, I have ADHD, remembering close to as much info as the BG tracker provides is only possible to me if im at my absolute best, and that is not how I am on average. I lose a lot because I position poorly as I get worn out from merely focusing on the game, and I see my opponents having the best lineups possible because they use that damn tracker…

I’ve played for over 1400 hours, I know almost every trick in the book and I know all the minions available by heart, but having to constantly guess what my opponents look like on average 4 turns after playing them puts me at an insanely high disadvantage.

I basically play just as well as kripp does, im even WAAAAY better than savjz, but I don’t reach the same WR because kripp uses the tracker, and I don’t…

[Deathy-1302]

@LightRain-1911

I did write an email and this was the reply:

Hello,

Thanks for reaching out! We don’t currently have any official Hearthstone Esports Battlegrounds events, but any third-party tournaments would be up to the individual tournament organizer.

Thanks,
Eric

So we can completely dismiss your handbook

You clearly don’t know how to ask the right question, and it clearly state in the handbook.

@Deathy-1302

. Tournament
organizers reserve the right to impose additional requirements on note taking at their sole
discretion. Additional restrictions may include, but are not limited to, requiring that all player
notes be taken using materials provided by the Tournament organizer. All players must allow
any Tournament official to inspect their note-taking materials and written notes upon request.

You clearly don’t know how to get to the point and love running around the bush, so It’ll be waste to put any more time to try to teach you how to correctly ask and get answers.
To show how I can use some your own words and only fix what I want to be true to be my answer to any further on your lack of knowing what to do or ask or any player who will give you legit advise.

@LightRain-1911

we can completely dismiss you

Cause 1, you refuse to ask the right questions, when given answer you only point out what you want and think the Official Tournament book is wrong when it clearly state you need talk to Organizer. You need to learn to ask the right questions to the Admins to get better indepth answer.

Here I’ll leave parting words to help you find a better answer with the Admins.

Hello I like to ask a few question in hypothetical statement, If Blizzard was to hold an tournament with Battleground, how would blizzard Approach if a player was to ask to use Deck Tracker, of a sorts, or if you can give any example of Any other tournament where a Player was approve or disapprove from using a Deck Tracker, as I am wondering why Deck Trackers are Fine for Normal And Rank Play vs a tournament setting if there is any difference to ruling with 3rd party programs such as HSReplay Deck Tracker.

Something like this Will get you a better answer then whatever lame terms “bad” question you asked them.

[LightRain-1911]

So just cause the answer does not fit your stance you assume, with no evidence, that I asked the wrong question?

Anyways, what difference does it make?! The answer is the answer, what has been said has been said, the handbook is irrelevant, and not only because of the reply, also because of the fact that it is outdated!

Also, you answered none of my arguments.

[Deathy-1302]

@LightRain-1911

So just cause the answer does not fit your stance you assume, with no evidence, that I asked the wrong question

Pretty sure, cause you lack basic understanding of question and answer. And by their respond I’m 100% your question was nothing like me to get an proper answer beside “Ask the Organizeer”

@LightRain-1911

Anyways, what difference does it make

Asking the RIGHT QUESTION to get RIGHT ANSWERS – Tips to Improve your communication skills

and this is #2, good bye troll enjoy your fake caring for the right answers.

[Horatio-2419]

@chatterbone-2508

when I noticed you were arguing with Horatio

Awwww, you warmed my heart!

[chatterbone-2508]

I think you guys should look at yourselves and ask whos trolling here, he made a post about a perfectly valid opinion and you guys(including me at the start) are just shi++ing on him for being genuinely bothered on the behalf of more people than himself.

You’re saying he’s whining about it while in reality, it’s you lot who is whining about him being upset about something… How backwards is that??? Get a damn grip

Nobody forced any of you to read or comment here, yet you keep spinning circles to no end what so EVER for the sole purpose of being unpleasant, and all he is doing is talking back at you for being insulted, and HE IS TROLLING???

If that’s not trolling in its raw form then I don’t know what the hell it is, bravo guys, bravo, standing applause.

[chatterbone-2508]

Yeeeah… Lets put that back in the fridge.

[LightRain-1911]

@Deathy-1302

And by their respond I’m 100% your question was nothing like me to get an proper answer beside “Ask the Organizeer”

They said that because they are not hosting Battlegrounds tournaments at the moment. Not because I communicated poorly

You should email them yourself instead of whining and being condescending thinking you can teach others to properly communicate when you have not even read my email! And the best part, you call me a troll! How delusional can you be? For what I can notice you can’t even write proper English, so quit acting all superior, it is honestly embarrassing and cringey.

On further inquiry I received this reply:

The idea is that as long as the tracker doesn’t provide you any information you wouldn’t be able to record yourself with a pen and paper during a match then it is okay. Sometimes for events that are held in-person and not entirely online then you can only have a paper and pen, which is why we have that stipulation. Helps keep it all fair.

It is settled then, you can’t write down everything that the tracker displays in time.

Also, there is a big clue when it comes to defining if use of trackers is cheating or not:

Sometimes for events that are held in-person and not entirely online then you can only have a paper and pen.

So no tracker. Why do you think this is? I mean, If tracker and paper are 100% the same why allow only pen and paper?? Makes no sense. Unless… the tracker does afford an advantage over paper and pen. Clearly.

Lastly, going back to the mobile argument. Deck trackers are not and probably will never be possible in IOS, because of the way the way IOS separates in-app data, which makes it impossible for another app to access the information from the game.

So no, players from different platforms are not on equal footing because of the tracker.

Also, I am not even sure if the apps for Android work for Battlegrounds or just standard.

[blood13666-1452]

guess your strictly focus on bg…i thought you mean in general…i dont think you can afford to spend time reading info on your next opponent if you want first dibs on minions you seek for your build in BG XD

even less time to look for info with a build requiring apm play…beside your composition has to be arrange in a specific order…just knowing the opponent core tribe is enough to know how to position…you cant counter every build :S…its even more irrelevant than ranked …

i be taking the door now…facepalming hard…dear further would-be posters…consider this thread solved…there no more arguments to give him(see replies from other ppl)…only time may convince him that the deck tracker app isn’t cheating…well ofc…feel free to play along with him/her if you get a kick out of it

[LightRain-1911]

@blood13666-1452

guess your strictly focus on bg…i thought you mean in general…i dont think you can afford to spend time reading info on your next opponent if you want first dibs on minions you seek for your build in BG XD

even less time to look for info with a build requiring apm play…beside your composition has to be arrange in a specific order…

Exactly! Now think about having to write it down on paper

@blood13666-1452

…just knowing the opponent core tribe is enough to know how to position…you cant counter every build :S…its even more irrelevant than ranked …

I wonder why the Tracker is so popular then?

@blood13666-1452

…there no more arguments to give him(see replies from other ppl)…only time may convince him that the deck tracker app isn’t cheating…

What arguments? You have not even addressed mine!

[Sadra88-1836]

would you rather have everyone either bust out some pen and paper or write their own program or find some other way to make it easier? cus they will. people will always find a way especially in competitive games. so either everyone uses pen and paper or their own method or whatever or we can all just use a convenient deck tracker that was made specifically for this reason mind you, CONVENIENCE!! if someone for whatever reason can’t do it, then that’s their own problem. don’t “choose” to play the game as is.

[LightRain-1911]

@Sadra88-1836

if someone for whatever reason can’t do it, then that’s their own problem. don’t “choose” to play the game as is.

What kind of twisted and perverse logic is that?

That’s like Blizzard giving PC one extra mana crystal and telling mobile players it is their problem because they play on mobile

[Lavick81-1266]

Should be banned. Blizzard needs to stop being lazy

[Mistikas-21916]

Yes that’s is “cheating” and these addons should and must be banned.

[Sadra88-1836]

that line was meant for people choosing not to use it when they can. i agree with you that it is unfair towards mobile players, but i look at it as a tool made by the community to help the players, and i wouldn’t want it banned. rather i want it to be available to everyone.