Reminder: Maxroll Builds are not optimal

PC General Discussion
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I think maxroll is a great tool for helping jumpstart into builds and great for casual players to just follow the button clicks to get going. Super valuable to the community.

I randomly hopped in Raxx’s stream in time for him to pompously claim how maxroll build guides are the best and most optimal builds… This is simply not true at all. All of the ones that I have currently reviewed on classes I play have poor choices in them.

Who am I? Some random player with a lvl 100 barb and necro who has done uber lilith and T100 NMD.

Lets review a couple just to prove the point, starting with the HOTA build guide…made by Raxx himself. Where to start…

  1. Berserk ripping aspect is flat out trash if you use sword technique (like recommended in the guide) because it only applies bleed from the base dmg of the ability. You only consider this if you need a bleed option if you switch to axe technique. It can also be used to stack disobedience (which isn’t in the maxroll build).
  2. Temerity legs, these are honestly trash. Their only use is if you run conceited aspect. These are worse damage reduction than normal legs for any hard content and this is only useful for speed farm level content, and in that case, I still wouldn’t use them because you don’t need conceited to kill speed farm content. You would NOT use this to push NMDs or lilith.
  3. Helm aspect for dmg reduction for bleeding is worse than other options I think on hota. Why is disobedience not on this build??
  4. No concussion in the talent tree, which is amazing for everything. This also enables you to use retribution aspect. Amazing defensive talent for pushing NMDs and also can be optionally used to help with stagger on lilith for p2 to remove pools. Butchers cleaver also helps with massive stagger.
  5. Supreme wrath of the berserker is just flat out useless pt. The dmg bonus is a multiplicative bonus to the terrible 25% dmg bonus of berserk. It’s useless. Wrath is not a dmg cooldown. It’s an emergency unstoppable to get out of stuff. If you want damage, look elsewhere, CotA is superior ult for dmg or can use other abilities like chains/kick to enable vulnerable.
  6. Lunging strike - this is good for speed farming only and should be replaced by Flay for any hard content. Flay gets a much more reliable vulnerable proc on basic, dmg reduction, and it bleeds…so on lilith you don’t need sword technique or berserk ripping.
  7. 5/5 Rallying cry, this is just a waste of points. 1/5 already overcaps you on fury.
  8. Enhanced challenging shout, removes your fortify when you click it. It’s bad.
  9. 5/5 challenging shout, waste of points except for super high content, These can go elsewhere like into counteroffensive, martial presence, martial vigor
  10. Mighty war cry is useless because you have the aspect and legendary paragon node to get fortify.
  11. Guttural yell is not worth it. You can get more value from the other pts I listed.
  12. No move speed passive? probably the best 3/3 in the tree, especially for uber lilith and speed farming
  13. still has shout cooldown reduction on chest, which isn’t even in the game…
  14. Having All stats on a couple weapons, and possibly dex on boots might be required for you to hit your paragon thresholds on rare nodes at the end of your board.

I’m not going to go into the board and why I don’t think it’s optimal because we’re already at a big list. The goal isn’t to just destroy every guide they have on maxroll, but people need to realize that these guides are NOT optimal. They’re not even all setup well for “speed farm variant, lilith variant, NMD push variant”. They’re likely just suboptimal at everything. The necro guides are even worse (no flesh eater)…and Raxx writes the HOTA guide but doesn’t even play a barbarian and doesn’t do end game content with one for sure.

Just don’t be afraid to stray from those guides as you learn more about the game. They’re good starting points but a lot of the guides that I’ve read are definitely not optimal/meta. This wouldn’t need to be stated if they didn’t actively promote themselves as the ‘best, most super meta, tryhard’ guides ever. Keep innovating those builds out there boys and girls. There’s still undiscovered tech and optimal choices that haven’t been found yet.

Edit: People were asking for a build guide and notes. I put a lot of notes in the d4builds link quickly and also a small vod on some of the pieces that I was talking about. I don’t normally do this type of content creation so this is a little rough that I put together quickly. I can do the same for the WW build and bone spear builds. I’ll refine this tomorrow and fill in gaps.

HOTA
I split the HOTA build up 3 different builds

Speed Farming
https://d4builds.gg/builds/e2a2d11d-5f45-4b2c-8feb-a7fb2436ad7a/

Nightmare Dungeon Pushing
https://d4builds.gg/builds/519be857-45b1-4c93-9e73-8685babc63ef/

Uber Lilith
https://d4builds.gg/builds/73df1169-7929-4929-ac24-9b8e58012a9f/

Video Commentary on some interactions that people don’t know (some of this is outdated info already)
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1857828188

WW versions: (some of this is outdated info already)
https://d4builds.gg/builds/7818abbf-7ac9-4bad-9415-95e26e6ccb60/

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1858188994

Bone Spear Necro:
https://d4builds.gg/builds/77c12c8b-69a3-4987-b5fb-3e6755a972cb/

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1859308863

Edit:
FYI to everyone looking at the builds…I have adjusted some of the content but have not adjusted the VODs yet. Some info has been tested last night due to a forum poster challenging some dmg mods. Thanks to Yemallis.

  1. Unbridled Rage - This does not appear to multiply your “dmg with core skills”, but is just a flat 135% global multiplier. This is a sheet dps error it seems and therefore “dmg to close enemies” is superior to “dmg with core skills” because the rolls are higher.

  2. More sheet dps errors, but Retribution appears to be a global multiplier of 40% when you hit a stunned target, making it better than expectant in nightmare dungeon pushing for HOTA. Maybe even for WW but I’d have to test the lucky hit procs on WW.

  3. Even though the math comes out identical, the iron golem sacrifice and heavy handed are not “multiplicative and additive”, but the way it’s calculated…the math is the same. If you have 150% crit strike dmg with heavy handed, it would be (100+150) * 1.15 -100 = 187.5…this is the same as doing 150 * 1.15 + 15, but the other equation is the correct equation I believe.

Edited for Language by the Moderation Team.
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101 Likes
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some of the druid guides were very qustionable. the pulverize build was ok tho.

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I think it’s important to mention that their guides consider an average gamer and likely just tell people to take something cause they think they need it.

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This would be true if Raxx wasn’t actively telling his stream community that their players and guides are the best diablo players and best/most optimal builds by far. They are neither of these things. If anything, Ben_ is better than all of them by far. His builds are much closer to optimal, but even they could be improved. He’s just doing what he thinks is needed to get the lilith kills minimum.

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Maxroll is wrong about a lot of stuff which is disappointing because their d2/d3 resources are very good. It seems with diablo 4 they prioritized “getting something on the page” over accurate and updated information.

Most of the people who work on the page are streamers though, so its obvious why they aren’t spending time working on the site.

I for example asked twice for them to let people know their monster families website was wrong, but they didn’t do anything because they said they didn’t have time to work on it.

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too bad we can’t really stray too far from a build guide because every little adjustment cost gold and resources just to try it out, if it’s worse then it will be double the cost for nothing.

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I think the difference is that Diablo 4 has new complexity and interactions that isn’t discovered yet and diablo 3 is SUPER simple. Diablo 2 is a 25 year old game. This is fine, but their guides aren’t even updated for “not new” build changes and that’s simply because they aren’t playing these classes at high end content. Like, I don’t think Rob’s builds are optimal but they’re at least tested enough to clear high end content so they’re a lot closer than most.

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I think maxroll is one of the reasons so many people (who don’t play barb) consider it S tier. Just because some website says HoTA is the best build in the game, doesn’t mean it is lol.

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100% agree that their WW Barb guide is sub-optimal. I found better info in Robs D4 planner and Murders.

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Got a mobalytic guide you can make?

TBH my job atm doesn’t afford me much time to test stuff out. I just follow guides.

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I literally don’t stream and haven’t setup any guides. I do have a twitch stream that is partially setup for basic stuff but I can probably try to throw together a d4 planner or mobalytic guide for stuff that I know. I primarily know barb and necro. (bone spear only, but changing to minions now to test some of Kripp’s build and see how I feel about other options). I can try to get some notes put together as well.

There’s a lot of info that isn’t well compiled on things. Example, people don’t realize that some stats like the barb key passive or the necro crit bonus from saccing iron golem are actually multiplicative and additive. While others, are not global modifiers even with an ‘x’ next to them, making them worse choices. Example, “crit dmg with bone skills” does not inherit any of the crit dmg bonuses in the necro tree. Also, void tendrils doesn’t activate flesh-eater for some reason, or fueled by death.

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Honestly, that would be awesome.

I’m not even close to as high as you but my two highest characters are a WW barb and bone necro. I honestly don’t know any better and just follow the maxroll guide for both…

Like you, I am looking into the bone spear necro build with minions that Kripp has been playing but I’m not too happy that the full potential is gated by a unique.

There are so many details that it’s a bit overwhelming for me. I do appreciate you detailing the issues with the WW guide on maxroll though. WW barb is still my favorite playstyle. Bone spear isn’t bad as well but it’s requires much higher apm and I’m not young anymore… I need to prevent tendinitis b/c of work…

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Murder is really good for WW barb, he’s actually experimenting and putting the builds to the test. Unlike some websites that play a barb to NM 50 and claim S-tier OP 1 shot build!!!

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I’m not young anymore either but one thing I did was move bone spear to the keyboard. I move my core attacks onto the keyboard to use less mouse clicking. My mouse fingers and wrist still hurt from the moving though. :frowning:

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I think people always think damage damage damage…and forget that other things work also. :slight_smile:

Either way there are faults with many of the guides but they are all also pretty viable if you are looking for an easy build.

The best way to build is to try things yourself. Plus I have noticed myself somethings that seem best early game lose ground as you level, and it is not always obvious either. I like D4’s building in that. For example Frozen Orb was not good by itself, but in my current build it is a nice way to trigger long range Vuln and adds a lot of collateral damage.

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Both games were essentially solved before Maxroll ever existed.

Any site that tries to make such a bold claim about D4 is just going to have problems. The game doesn’t even really know what it is yet. Doesn’t stop every guide site and YouTuber from proclaiming their newest baby is the greatest there ever was….until they drop that baby for a new one when something else either changes or someone has found a better way.

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I’m with you on that, Old age is a bugger but at least we get to play 24/7 providing we have a nap in the afternoon :grinning:

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I used maxroll to start my WW barb, moved on to robs HoTA guide, then looked at Matt Jestics translated HoTA guide from the Korean player who solod a T100 but it was too gimmicky.

I’ve much more success in just playing around with the tree and boards and looking for ways to increase damage while remaining survivable.

Most build guides are copies of each other with slight tweaks but it feels like if one person drops some good info for the time everyone else runs with it and tweaks it just enough to claim it as their own.

Would you mind sharing your aspects/skill tree choices? Id love to compare my homebrew build with yours since I’m still struggling in T70 with my HoTA barb and can’t do much to lillith.

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I’ll give it a try but it’s going to be hard to break the second nature from my current setup.

I’m already getting repetitive stress injuries from my work involving the tendons in my bilateral thumbs… sucks hard, c’est la vie.

But please make a quick WW guide when you have some free time. I would love to check it out.

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Get in line, WW barb first! haha jk

1 Like