Itemization Critical and Constructive Feedback

PC General Discussion
1

Why rework itemization?

Legendaries are currently rare items with aspects imprinted on them, nothing less but also nothing more. There is too much loot to check, especially rare items and Legendaries. The flood of items is so overwhelming players keep asking for loot filters and stash space or stop playing the game. Most Legendary drops are underwhelming. The few godly drops in Diablo IV seem unfarmable to even pro players.

How to rework itemization

  • remove Legendary items and Imprinting from the game
  • reuse Legendary item art, graphics, sounds for new Unique items
  • move Legendary powers to the Codex of Power or Skill Tree or Paragon Board
  • players activate a small number of unlocked aspects in the Codex of Power
  • lower the drop rate of rare items and improve their rolls based on monster level
  • add new unique items to the game, some of which can be farmed in World Tier I and II
  • add target farming for unique items
  • consider simplifying affixes on items

Where to move Legendary Powers

  • multi-class stat bonus: aspect in the Codex of Power
  • multi-class skill bonus: aspect in the Codex of Power
  • one-class stat bonus: passive skill node in the skill tree
  • one-skill bonus: skill node in skill tree attached to the skill
  • situational stat bonus: rare Paragon node on the Paragon Board

Notes

  • Note that Uniques can stay what they are, Unique items giving unique bonusses.
    Ideally Unique items will change the way you play the game completely and can be so cool and/or powerful you’ll want to make your build around it.
  • Nodes in the skill tree should not be mutually exclusive, because by having to put a point into the node you’re already making a choice. You have more choices when you can chose the one, the other or both. This becomes clear when you have maxed out skill points, have most or all of the gear in place and are seriously weighing where to put your points.
  • Aspects obtained from clearing dungeons can have the minimum roll on World Tier I and the maximum roll on World Tier IV.
4 Likes
2

yet another post of itemization…why dont people get it that itemization is fine as it is and that is exactly the reason why bliz doesnt need to speak about it in season 2. just enjoy it the game!

2 Likes
3

For casual players it probably is, but when you get to mid and later game there are certainly issues. When compared to other games in the ARPG genre that set itemization standards it’s lacking in more than one area. That’s why I think it’s good to share ideas.

If the developers think itemization needs changing it’s a major system overhaul and will be implemented in an expansion, not in a season. Seasons are generally for mid sized content, smaller game system changes or additions and balance changes.

Sure, I’ll try again in Season 2. For now I hope the developers will look into itemization in Diablo IV, talk to gamers about it, go experience it for themselves and carefully consider what the proposed changes would mean to Diablo IV. I think it’s a major step in the right direction though it might be missing some nuances.

2 Likes
4

Personally I am not a fan of many of your suggestions here about reworking itemization except target farming (which is supposedly going to be introduced in Season 2)

I think the flexibility of imprinting is great and I like stacking similar affixes conceptually, with the rework of vulnerable and crit damage in season 2 I am hoping this system will finally be interacted with as intended.

I think what you have done though is highlighted issues that most players experience.

Your point of items improving based on monster level, that identifies an issue with reward imbalances in the game - You get to a certain point and the game doesn’t communicate better rewards even if you increase the challenge.

The desire to just turn everything into uniques is because fundamentally the item identity in the game is poorly communicated, we never find a legendary or rare so good we have to stop playing in the middle of a fight to check it - because they fail to communicate the power with us and that means after every slot has a legendary power we can just check in town, we’re not eager for anything that’s not a unique even if actually we do want something rare/legendary.

Requesting to lower the drop rate of rares, yeah pretty much we have a situation where power is poorly communicated so we are constantly checking items that are duds, in the other games the item is more clearly communicated so that we can either ignore or immediately sell those items - This difference means we spend less mental energy on worthless items in those other games but in D4 we have to individually acknowledge a lot of items and this really sticks in our head just how often we look at items without improving our setup.

So for me, I’d say the biggest problem with D4 items is communicating the power.
In other modern games with poorish loot solutions they use a loot filter as a crutch that lets players ignore items, this sticky plaster helps fix it for most players but involves the player intervening with the reward structure.
In D3, item identity was very clear, at max level rares became crafting currency and the normal drop was legendary so you’d only spend mental energy on a few items per area - And you’d also know the slot to compare so you could ignore other legendaries if they were in a core slot.
In D2, actually more similar to D3 than people will admit on this, you ignore items based on type/slot and items that you actually pick up/check are only a handful per run. Even the lower rarity items like white/blue, you know the base type to check and generally ignore the others.

D4 broke this formula by making every ancestral item a potential winner, you can only filter out non-ancestral items when checking for upgrades. You have to look over 10x as many items on average compared to those other games which means you see 10x as many non-usable items that you’ve fully read. It makes that stick in your head more and is tedious in general.

I think due to community calls for a loot filter that eventually (maybe even soon) the Diablo team will give the community a loot filter. I think its the wrong move personally and they should instead work to make the base game function more closely to a loot filter by default which requires them to address the desirable item communication issue.

This is not to say that itemisation is perfect, it can be improved further definitely but I think a big problem even with an improved affix layout would be this communication issue. Loot should be fun to find not a chore and no matter how good itemisation is, it will feel bad without solving this.

5

I disagree,

Since the game is made up of many different players the complaints towards it are universal that the itemization is a problem.

  • For casual players it’s too confusing.
  • For most players, there are too many situational affixes
  • For all players there’s just a lack of items
  • For pro players there isn’t enough that help in build diversity
3 Likes
6

After re-reading your post I agree for the most part.

I do think rares and Legendary items currently cannot be used properly to communicate their power. Also consider the flow of combat and item drops. The combat is action packed, the flow is great. Being flooded with rare and legendary items, each of which could be a potential upgrade even if the chance is low, breaks this flow. Diablo IV’s combat is one of its highlights. Getting item drops just right will make it shine even more.

7

Did you read the patch notes? or last chats or whatever 90% of these have been said we hear it, we will talk internally, or they already are.

The affix’s got a foundational change for more to come, something like that.

Other than that loot is pretty easy once you play more, it was a learning curve like other games, you get faster and better at sorting loot.

Filters can help yes, we know they know.

I agree with legendries not feeling special enough and hope to have items that are not just rare with powers also, i think that would be cool.

Especially not having much difference between sacred and ancestral, like the gold and blue power is cool and i get that, but the legendries themselves dont stand out, i think some with a trade off choice you know do i keep it and gain this or extract and put it on a rare, something like that, better though.

8

The biggest problem with the itemization is that it doesn’t extend all the way to level 100. It is quite possible to have the best gear for your build at level 70. That’s 30 levels of nothing new.

2 Likes
9

Removing all legendaries might be a step too far for me (I would just remove a lot of them), but nonetheless I very much agree with this:

In particular the one-class and one-skill bonuses.

Uniques should get some of the same treatment though. Move uniques that alter one skill to the skill tree.

:100:
Or imo, base it on character lvl.
In a game where you can go in and kill freaking lvl 150 enemies, far above your own lvl, monster lvl based rewards, as sensible as it is, becomes meaningless very fast, and rewards people for standing afk with a lvl 60 character in a Tier 150 dungeon while being carried.
If basing it on character lvl, at least there is more reason to lvl up.
Maybe balanced approach would be to balance it as *Lowest of either Character lvl +10 or monster lvl.
So if you are lvl 100 and kill lvl 110 enemy, you get drops based on lvl 110.
If you are lvl 100 and kill lvl 100 enemies, you get drops based on lvl 100
If you are lvl 100 and kill lvl 150 enemies, you get drops based on lvl 110
Ensuring that it is still worth it to go and fight more challenging enemies. Could of course also be a bit more than +10, as well as the +X value depending on your lvl, so at lvl 100 going higher was more rewarding, but at lvl 60 you couldnt exploit it.

In principle it offers more choices.
But in a game that is already suffering from builds focusing solely on buffing 1 dmg skill, this would only make it worse.
For such a system to work, you would need to have individual skill points for enhancing each skill, so you couldnt just throw all your skill points toward one skill. Like how Wolcen does it, and afaik, Last Epoch does it.

That is vvery much a positive as I see it. All good A-RPGs have basically worked that way.
It might definitely be too easy/fast to get gear, resulting in the sense of having found the best gear at lvl 70.
But the chance to find the best gear at lvl 70 definitely should exist.
No mindless scaling of gear with lvls.

10

Honestly, we’ve been talking about itemization for months now. No need to rehash it. The game is not salvageable. It has a defective core. Why am I replying on a forum of a dead game you ask. I have 15 min to kill and no access to my pc.

11

Yes. And yes.

The changes proposed here are on a more fundamental level and a lot more daring. After the release the developers are consistently choosing to be on the safe side of change, which is fine as huge changes is something that’s more appropriate for an expansion.

Changing affixes is a bit like polishing some of the itemization building blocks in Diablo IV whereas things like removing Legendary items and moving Legendary powers is more like removing and changing pretty much all of the itemization building blocks.

I think I need to be clearer on what the experience would be like in both cases.

Current situation

Level 1-50

Should you focus on getting gear instead of just leveling you'll be chasing aspects either by doing dungeons or by finding Legendaries. The drop rate of items is ok and finding a Legendary item is a bit exciting but not great. There's no god drop.

Level 50-70

By running Helltide and Nightmare Dungeons you'll get lots and lots of Sacred Rare items and Legendaries. You'll be pretty much fully geared in no time. The drop rate for rare and Legendary items is too high and finding a Legendary item is not very exciting. There's no god drop.

Level 70-100

When running Helltide and Nightmare Dungeons you'll find even more Ancestral rare and Legendary items. You'll be fully geared after a short while, but you can still find upgrades, especially if you're willing to go through each and every rare and Legendary item you'll find. The drop rate for rare and Legendaries is way too high and finding Legendary items is generally not exciting. Finding unique items is generally much more exciting. It's sometimes extremely hard to find a key item for your build. Some unique items are so rare they are almost impossible to farm.

New situation

Level 1-50

Should you focus on getting gear instead of just leveling you'll be chasing aspects by doing dungeons. Rare items will drop once in a while, higher drop rate for Elites and Bosses. Unique items can drop with a low drop rate or can be target farmed to increase your chances by a bit. Unique items are for example items like The Eye of Etlich, Manald Heal and String of Ears, i.e. unique items that are not too powerful but useful early on and stay useful in the mid game.

Level 50-70

Running (regular) dungeons once in World Tier III will upgrade your aspects. The drop rate is about the same as during level 1-50 but you have a chance to find more powerful mid tier unique items which can also be target farmed. Helltide and Nightmare Dungeons give a small chance to get a random mid tier unique item.

Level 70-100

Running (regular) dungeons once in World Tier IV will upgrade your aspects to the max. When running Helltide and Nightmare Dungeons you'll have a a decent chance of finding good rare items and occasionally a random high tier unique item. There are opportunities to target farm uniques, super uniques and uber uniques. Godly Unique item drops exist and there's a real chance you'll get one when you invest a realistic amount of time.

More control over your Build while Leveling

Legendary Powers have been moved to the Codex of Power, the Skill Tree or a Paragon Board, so you'll have more control over your build during the leveling process and planning is also easier. Due to much higher availability and diversity of unique items you'll still have an important part of your build that's reliant on the right item drop. Luckily you can target farm key items.
12

They are adding target farming for at least season 2.

Seasons are always their to push the games idea’s and such, what works may end up in some form in the core game also, what doesnt will be for seasonal.

I meant the changes to affix ordering, was only the start of more to come. So lets see what they do with that, is what i meant.

I like printing items,the codex way you suggest is too simple for my taste. It needs more layers less. Like other crafting items like rune words, or cube etc

Ancestral items that are legenday but are better and more special than ordinary ones, maybe one extra affix or something.

Any easier than as is, my brain will shut down and my face will slam the keyboard…
I find nothing about it hard as is.

13

:joy:

When more powers are in the Skill Tree and Paragon Board it’s easier to use an online planner to plan out your build pre-season.

Also, with target farming you have a good chance to get your build, the one that you planned for pre-season, complete.

14

Thats if you play that way, I prefer to play my way, I dont play planned builds, :person_shrugging:
Even so making it easier defeats the purpose of people playing there own characters, that is why D4 id different, it want to break traditional a little.
and i am all for it. meta is boring imo.

Your ideas are okay, i respect them.
I just prefer what the Devs have made for the moment and will see what happens.

2 Likes
15

No need to move them around to different places. Just make them affixes on rare items. Rare itemization need some serious spicing up anyway. Playing a barb and you get Tornado seeking on gloves? Sell them and buy something for your barb. Economy. If only they could set up a robust trading system.

Or better yet. Remove “Tornado” and make it “seeking abilities seek out 2 more enemies” And then every ability that has the “seeking tag” would benefit.

16

At the very least, without an item filter I wouldn’t even consider coming back to play this train wreck.

Itemization is probably close to the worst of all time and that’s after d2 had maybe the best.

However, it is funny to watch the fan boys continue to suckle at whatever dried up crone’s teet is offered them.

17

This is the way.

And yeah, quite a few of the legendary affixes could be turned into normal affixes too.

18

It just occurred to me what the greatest drawback is of the current Legendary Items in Diablo IV.

It is that they are lacking an Identity.

Currently they lack Identity, because they are just a rare item with an aspect imprinted on them. You’ll remember the Aspects more than you’ll remember the Legendary Items. You’ll remember most Unique Items a lot more than the Legendary Items.

19

I dont see a problem there.
Not all items should have an identity in that sense. I mean, that is the very concept of Rare items. Of which legendaries certainly is a subset.
Items with an identity, that is the role of Uniques.

I just wish actual Rares were useful. Legendaries are fine, but they are still less interesting Rares.

20

Legendary means “described in or based on legends”, but currently there’s nothing Legendary about the Legendary Items in the game. If a rare item, after an aspect was imprinted, would just be called rare item with an aspect or imprinted rare item then it would also be fine.

Out in the world Legendary means something really, really special. Like the Legendary soccer player Pele.

I really think Legendary items shouldn’t be a subset of rare items. Legendary Items should be their own distinct item type and when you find one, it should feel great. Maybe not as great as when finding a unique item, but it should be close to that feeling. It shouldn’t be something you can get at any time by imprinting an aspect on a random rare item. That doesn’t feel Legendary to me.

If a rare item would remain a rare item after imprinting, with the aspect power on it of course, rares would be useful. If you then go one step further and let players activate aspects from the Codex of Power and remove imprinting you’ll have the situation I talked about in de original post and rares would be more useful, because you really need them to balance things like your resistances, primary stat, health. Because Unique Items are powerful but have set stats and most of the times they lack simple survival stats, or at least they should lack these to some degree if they currently don’t.