For T16 I’ve been running EF + Powerful, Taeguk, Gogok. Works great. I think Powerful is a little more comfortable than Trapped for T16, since your Dust Devils often don’t catch up to enemies till you’ve moved past them, out of the range of Trapped’s secondary.
How do you suppose pushing will be gimped by having more DPS and more defense?
I’ve actually been using Stricken, Taeguk, Gogok to have the Stricken stacks to work the RG down a little faster but I’ll try Powerful out. Should provide more damage overall through the rift once the first elite pack goes down.
One thing you guys are not mentioning is the stats your losing by rerolling cdr instead of other options that are from core zodiac. By my count we would lose
2x IAS on weapons
1-2x attack speed or area damage from rings.
1x attack speed on gloves
1x vit or resist on shoulders if you get good ones
Convention of elements
I don’t know. All those stat rolls plus COE for somewhere in the range of 50-60% damage. I don’t see this being a good trade off.
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I was only thinking in terms of pushing. Haven’t really tried the new Crimson’s variant in T16, but will today.
Well, is it really more DPS?
As you push higher and higher and things take longer to die, I wonder if the core build, with its reliance on COE-driven DPS cycles, will start to provide more bang for the buck when fishing. I’m far from certain, mind you, but I’m not sold until I see some relevant clears.
The extra defense argument doesn’t really hold up vs Parthans. Parthans doesn’t cap, so if you’re fishing properly, it’s always going to provide more mitigation than Crimson’s + RCR + Mortick’s.
That’s exactly what I’m thinking.
COE-driven builds tend to perform better at the highest tiers because we can’t make up for that multiplier. I suppose some folk will go for BK swords with IAS/CDR/AD, but those are going to be nightmares to find, and let’s be honest, the vast majority of us won’t roll Strength off our weapons.
I forgot to mention the 30% damage reduction from CC vs permanent IP.
I run at either 57% CDR and 37% RCR or 63% CDR and 28% RCR. In either case it is trading COE for RorG. More damage and more defense vs 50% average damage on COE and no defense.
In WW you cannot burst a bunch of damage in 4 seconds like R6, so I have to base my analysis on average damage. You spend minutes gathering mobs and you spend minutes taking out density not seconds.
There is also a small benifit of being able to run into the oculus ring more often where with COE it only benifits you 25% of the time.
I am not saying anything about morticks now, just the simple ring swap. If you still want to run Parthans that’s a different debate.
As for stat changes, it is very little for me. No change on chest, shoulders (always had CDR), head, boot, pants, amulet (Flavor of time comes with CDR), zodiac (comes with CDR), or SG.
For my gloves, I traded strength/ASI for CDR, and Weapons I traded IAS for CDR. Maybe 1 break point is all I lost.
As for IP, I just changed for Ignorance is Bliss to Iron Hide just so I don’t have to hit it as much. 100% up time.
Going the CC route is just better all around if you ask me.
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Actually, I have a question about Crimson’s bonus, and maybe you or someone else can help: Is the multiplier from Crimson’s based on sheet CDR or your actual CDR total from gear?
There’s a huge difference between the two.
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Pretty sure it’s sheet CDR.
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I think you’re right, which means there’s a limit to how much CDR can/should be stacked. The best places to get it will be swords and helm, but a second ring roll, and perhaps even the shoulder roll are unnecessary. In other words, I think the best configuration for CDR will be 20% from weapons (10% each), 12.5% from diamond in helm, the Zodiac ring (8%), and 10% from Flavor.
It may not be worth it get 8% CDR on shoulder as the above will already put us over 50% sheet CDR.
Shoulders are nice to have CDR you are only giving up a bit of vit which you can always replace with paragon. For me shoulders are a given. Also 8% CDR is all that you can get on Flavor of Time.
Also for a new ring that drops, CDR and RCR are no longer automatic roll offs which makes a good to go ring easier to find. I think I rolled RCR off my primal SG a long time ago.
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You should definitely still get Strength/CDR/AD on Shoulders imo. 4th roll can be Vitality/AllRez/whatever you want.
Unless you’re really squishy, CDR isn’t replacing a very important stat on Shoulders. Best case scenario you’re getting Vitality + All Rez, but once again… only reason to take that combo is if you’re really squishy… even then is it worth it?
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I promise you those defensive stats are very important.
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Completely agree, but the biggest issue for WW isn’t defense it is offense.
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I just want to jump in and say that you all are testing pro. The Barb community is in good hands.
Go Bears!!!
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I hear you on that one. But if you consider density a factor for Bloodshed you have to do that for Into the Fray to. Have you calculated the damage gain of WW and all your tornadoes for Into the Fray. Into the Fray does effect Slaughter proc rate too. If you do 4billion non crits at 60% crit chance with 500% crit damage increasing the crit chance even by 10% has a big effect.
But you are probably right with Bloodshed. It is an explosion with a radius. By itself it is only a sub4% damage gain (1 target hit) but if you manage to hit 10 mobs at once it is a pretty big gain.
Btw Bloodshed should be dps * crit_chance * critical_hit_damage * 0.2 * 0.2 * number_of_targets_hit right?
Slaughter does insignificant damage in a Wastes build… only build that buffs Slaughter is IK 6-piece.
No. Almost all your direct dps is from critical hits. With 50 chc and 500 chd 6/7 of you damage are critical hit. But you rather have ~65 chc with BR and WB.
Let’s calculate it out and see how it turns out. (First, Jako is right that Slaughter is basically useless in this build, since the Wastes set doesn’t buff its damage).
So, with perfect gear, and BR + WOTB active, your WW barb is going to be running with 67% CHC and +610% CHD. That means that out of every 1000 hits:
330 are going to be regular hits, each of which does X damage, for 330X total.
670 are going to be critical hits, each of which does 7.1X damage, for 4757X total.
Grand total there is 5087X.
4757 / 5087 = 0.935, i.e. 93.5% of your total damage comes from your critical hits. And our average hit is going to do 5.087X damage. Let’s call this amount, the amount you do with an average hit to an enemy, “average damage”.
So your Bloodshed damage would be (average damage * .935 * 0.2 * 0.2 * # of targets hit), or more simply, (average damage * .0374 * # of targets hit).
At 27 enemies hit, your Bloodshed damage will be (1.01* average damage). At 100 enemies, Bloodshed would be (3.74 * average damage). So, an enemy standing next to you would be taking nearly 4 times the damage they would from your WW hits alone.
We’ve also got to account for area damage. When AD procs, it hits everything within a 10 yard radius. The number of enemies you can have within a 10 yard radius of a particular point varies on mob type, but it’s generally between 15 and 30, with some significant exceptions on either end (Demonic Tremors and Armaddons on the low end, Swarms + Maggot Brood on the high end).
You can run with up to 178% AD using WW (this is how much Wroboss used). Let’s say that on average, when you’ve assembled a big pile of mobs using spear, each enemy on the interior of that pile can proc AD onto about 23 other mobs. With each enemy within the AD range of 23 other mobs, they will take (average damage * .2 * 1.78 * 23), or 8.19X average damage, from AD.
So, when running Bloodshed, in a big pile of mobs where your direct WW and your DD’s can be scoring 100 hits, an enemy standing near you will be taking (1X average damage from WW hits + 3.74X average damage from Bloodshed + 8.19x average damage, from AD), for a total of 12.93x average damage.
Now let’s talk about Into the Fray. This ability raises your CHC by 1% for every enemy within 10 yards. Since we’re assuming 23 enemies within this radius for AD, let’s do the same for ITF. This will take you from 67% CHC to 90%. CHD is still +610%.
So out of 1000 hits:
100 will be non-critical, and deal X damage, for 100X total.
900 will be critical, and deal 7.1X damage, for 6390X total.
Grand total is 6490X damage.
6490 / 5087 = 1.276, or 27.6% more damage than we were dealing with our average hit using our Bloodshed setup.
So, the AD dealt to an enemy would be (average damage * 1.276 * .2 * 1.78 * 23), or 10.45x average damage.
An enemy standing near you would take (1.276X Average Damage from WW hits + 10.45X average damage from AD), for a total of 11.73X average damage.
So that’s 12.93X average damage for our Bloodshed setup, 11.73X average damage for our ITF setup.
You could assume certain mob types that would give you a tighter grouping and more CHC from ITF, but this is also going to mean more hits factored into Bloodshed, and besides, your CHC can’t get any higher than 100%, while the number of enemies you can hit to trigger Bloodshed has no real cap. How many mobs do you think Wroboss is hitting here?:
Bottom line, I’m pretty sure Bloodshed is better, particularly in a good rift, though ITF is certainly good too. Based on the numbers it looks like it’s going to give you about 10% less damage, or a bit less than 1 GR.
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For sure for Hi-CDR gear (that’s means another dmg rolls loss) there’s kinda diminishing here, but if not - it’s definitely a case
For sure Bloodshed >> Into the Fray, unless for special local tasks (Elites hunting, rise up some damage @ low Plvl, etc.)
NO WAY. NEVER.
- Parthans DR is MULTIPLICATIVE - so there’s a cap.
- It’s not a Raekor / MotE builds - so there’s not stun / freeze SKILLS by default here (just [defensive] Ground Stomp and some low % items rolls)
- Mobs goes IMMUNE since couple of seconds of the fight
- Crowd dies FAST, but not Elites
- Mostly USELESS on RG
I understand your impression
It’s sounds like IDDQD (but isn’t)
- It’s a kinda placebo effect b/c “best enemy is [dead or at least] stuned enemy”, since it cann’t hit you - so you still take only Elites elemental dmg
- Key word is “fresh”
- I don’t want to start Any blasphemous rumours But I think that Blizz’s Got a sick sense of humour And when got banned I expect to find them laughing ©
That’s why I never use [and recommend to] 3rd party stuff (th or smth - idk exactly) since it’s against EULA - but you could easy find D3 clips on Youtube and [even] on Stream, where you can see those numbers (stun mobs qty, APD DR) in real-time on screen overlay - and they’re not so huge as you want: just about 20% in average, as I told you previosly…