I keep wondering why this discussion is still ongoing. The AH is never coming back, not in any form, implementation, whatever. Blizzard already made it clear.
It’s not coming back, get over it already.
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Not every. I saw bot complaint that starts with “I saw bot in the group of random players - ban this botter!”.
I suggested already solution to fix this:
but botters will be still there (just for trolling another players) though bots will provide exactly zero profit for rankings. The best example of this - complaints about cheaters in D3 on PS3.
Complaints of some small amount of players on forums which will play anyway with or without AH? vs players that leaved D3 at all and will not buy D4? Nice argument.
Now is the RoS. No one can be forced to the AH because anyone can obtain medium gear with the minimum efforts. And what is the reason to hate AH now?
As you can see in this thread, there are another reasons for returning AH - to do not collect and salvage the tons of garbage (legs) because now even top primals (the second such item on the soft) are just 15 souls, no more. With AH it is useful item that can be exchanged on other item without necessity to intersect with some one else 1 by 1 or to farm forums for such items or to spam in the game chat for this. In PoE there is the trade that has additional functional like AH has (i.e. simultaneous interaction of millions players without trade forums and chats) but anyone need to hold in its mind the true cost of all items for that to know what items should be exchanged on which one else. In Diablo 2 and 3 no analogues of such trade at all, only AH (in D3).
And what? D4 has trade already.
Though there are all such complaints.
And I say - devs know now what most fans want (trade or AH) using their data about classic and RoS. But they make additional mistake when they hearing the smallest number of fans which complaint on forum against AH and trade. Like ones that they did with removing of AH and introducing primals in the RoS (at the last moment of time the base of players of PoE was doubled - you can check this moment by yourself using resources steamstats and steamcharts, both com).
You sayd that removing LB can help to stop botting.
I gave your example why such solution can’t help to stop botting.
AH in this theory is optional. Do not want to pay - do not pay.
You just do not understand simple things, so I can return this to yourself: “keep living in your strange world where the difference in the gear (primals vs ancients) gives much more power that the difference in the paragon (2k vs 6k)”.
You can’t provide exact numbers of profit between such items and can’t understand small profit of them comparing with the paragon, so it is uselessly to talk with you about such things.
You can’t explain why is so. While I can explain why is so - just because Blizz want to sell as many copies of D4 as possible whereas they do not need to do the same for D3 RoS (they did this already). That’s all.
Very small difference comparing the difference between 2k and 6k paragon or random between ideal and bad rifts.
AH is about exchange of these primals that “are not needed” by your words. Why do you still have arguments about AH? I.e. about trading of items that “are not needed”? Nice gift from you. Thanks.
You made one simple mistake again and again: yes, you will obtain access to the primals of other players. BUT! And all of them will obtain access to them. I.e. instead of your meaning that ONLY you will obtain access to all these items of another millions players while they - NOT.
Exactly, initially, all these millions of players will obtain access to the limited amount of top primals - i.e., say, millions of players (that want such items) will obtain access to the tens or hundreds of such items. They can’t obtain access to the millions of them due to the fact that such items are very rare. Hence such items will have very big price and the only way to obtain them - to drop another item that will have the same price as it (to sold it and to obtain enough gold to buy such rare item). Bots (gold farming) can’t help with such prices too (I gave you example with some prices of classic already).
And yes: AH is not market at all. It is the way to exchange one item on another (both with the same price) using gold as intermediate pool.
Nice argument: “I do not know, but I think that they will find other methods”.
It is the main arguments of ones who already leaved D3 and asked for trade in D4 otherwise they will not buy this game at all. The official position of devs: “hey, guys, you do not need primals at all” - does not matter at all, because they did just one more big mistake (hm, in the game with the grind players do not need items - very funny).
You forgot about seasons with the limited duration.
You forgot about fishing of rifts (this is not about gear and paragon).
You forgot about some another things, so it is not primals that keeping users playing the game.
You do not obtain access to such number of items in the season.
Ask ones who played in D3 classic from the start about AH in that time.
Really? And where is the second addon for D3 after RoS (with new act and so on) if “many people returned” and hence devs obtained very big amount of money which they lost in classic? No of it. Moreover, the part of this addon were introduced into the game for zero price (because devs have big doubts that such addon will buy enough number of players). It is like words about necro-pack that it was succesfull. And where is the next pack? No? Why? So funny arguments about AH and its role for the Diablo. Especially with returning of the trade in D4.
Yeah, of course.
Steam has no problems with its AH, but Blizz has.
Though both companies are from USA.
At first, prove this moment.
I also thought initially that RoS (and removing of AH) was the best moment in the history of D3 (and I did pre-order of RoS + tested it on CBT and OBT), but facts and their analysis talk directly opposite things to my initial opinion.
I never played in WoW. Only D3. D1 and D2 I just passed once.
They did not do this. They just said what exact things of original AH they do not like and such things of AH I removed in this theory of ideal AH.
No matter how you twist and turn the matter, the AH is not coming back. Not ever, not in any form. Accept it already.
But you aren’t buying anything, it’s a subscription or donation to the player and has nothing to do with getting in game equipment
Well lets see, No LB, means no LB chasers botting to get keys to get to the top
People that bot don’t use bots to get on the leader boards. They use them for repetitive tasks like keys, bounties, paragon, etc… When the botter comes home he gets the fruits of the bot and uses them to push the leader boards or do other things that the bot cannot do.
You must’ve forgotten the divisiveness of the AHs. It almost split the player base in half. So half of the players didn’t like the AHs that is more than just a small amount of players. The hatred for the RMAH was even worse so don’t even think that it was just a small amount of players.
That is because no matter how you cut it you won’t be able to obtain even crappy gear let alone medium gear if the AH were to return. The drop rates have to be abysmal because if they aren’t then the best stuff sells for pennies on the dollar, or to put it better it becomes vendor bait. Having millions of top end gear (ancients (not primals)) on the AH floods the market where in a short time the price for them will drop like a rock to vendor prices.
There are some legendaries that are so garbage that they wouldn’t be worth trading with others. Ones that have no useful affixes on them at all for the build you are playing. I have seen that happen more times than I can count.
I bet you are the type if you see it as ancient you will equip it right away even though it is not better than what you are currently using and will do the same if it is primal.
D4 will not have an AH trade can take many other forms other than AH. Even PoE doesn’t have an AH. The only way that the AH could return is if Classic game team was gonna turn this game into an MMO. That has a snowballs chance in hell of happening. AHs never really belonged to the Diablo franchise. Go find and MMO that has and AH and play that AH like you would in D3.
Look again I tell you that paragon is just an extra layer of damage. Go to D3 planner and just put in 6k paragon. Then take a look at damage. If the skill damage is in the hundreds of trillions you would have a point. But it is likely to be only in the hundreds.
When I say that gear makes the build I mean gear makes the build. To you paragon makes the build, which is living in a dream world. According to you a player could go in with all white gear and have 2k paragon and be able to rock a GR150 right along side of those using sets right. After all paragon is so important. It is more important than gear.
The paragon on your season and non season account in EU isn’t anywhere near what I have and I have been posting more than I should. I am seriously thinking of taking a vacation from the forums for a while so I can truly test my knowledge and skills as a player to see how far I can take my seasonal barb in the GRs.
Players in a thread that no longer exists said that to be able to go higher than GR 110 you need well rolled ancients, level your gems, augment your gear. The last thing that was mentioned in that thread was paragon.
They said it themselves years ago. Wyatt said it short circuits the reward loop. You get a really good piece of gear. Now you shoot up on the gear curve. When that same piece drops months later it is garbage. Further playing the AH was better than playing the game to get the gear. Players played the AH more than the game itself. That is unhealthy for a game like Diablo that is a loot hunt game not AH tycoon.
Further laws change so that it would be a legal nightmare to have a RMAH return to Diablo.
Finally D4’s trade isn’t an AH and will not be one.
You do realize that there are diminishing returns on higher paragons. Just do the math if you are so good at math then tell me what the difference is.
When I am saying not needed I mean that they are not required like in WoW where if you don’t have all item level (insert number) gear you won’t be able to get into dungeon x. You can still complete the highest tiered GRs without them and do just fine.
Further when you have trading you must have hard to find gear that is the high ticketed items. The only way that can happen is if you take what is hard to find now and make it even harder. Because with millions of players players would be all decked out in well rolled primals faster than you know what hit you. Botters would bot for that gear just to sell it either on the AH or for real money.
Exchanging one per one items are still gonna have the same problems. In time everyone would get geared up quickly in all primal ancient gear that is well rolled. All because botters would bot for such gear to trade. Then they would say just give us any primal it can even be crappy and we will take it.
Primals are designed as a time sink. With their rarity it would take an extremely long time to find a full set of them. Thus you still have things that you haven’t done yet in the game. That is the whole point of primals. Give those that already have top end well rolled ancients something to look for.
I don’t think you fully understand what top end gear is because you are not higher than me in paragons. Wait till you have gotten higher than me in paragons and you will see what others are saying.
D4 is gonna have a restricted trade system without an AH.
Again it goes back to the fact that players need to make progress with their characters. Players at much higher paragons than you and me will need to see progress in some way. To them just a few inches on the next paragon level isn’t good enough. And since they already have the best gear that you can find in the game. There really isn’t any reason to play. That is why primals were introduced.
You will have access to them because the AH represents the drops of millions of players.
The amount returned doesn’t have to be more than enough to warrant a second expansion. Besides Blizz no doubt realized that to fix this game the second expansion would have to redesign the game from the ground up. Even if all of that that bought D3 were playing and bought RoS it still wouldn’t have warranted a second expansion. That is why they cancelled it and moved on to D4.
Not int he form of an AH though.
Ask around about the legal issues. Some of the legal eagles here remember all of it better than I do.
You can spin it any way you want the AH isn’t coming back for any reason. It was a failure and they won’t be like a dog returning to its vomit.
Ah well its a thing of the past blizz used to generate money for the game. Judging from new content in d3 I would say when ah died so did development of d3. I got to give them credit for keeping it going as long as they have 
If player trading is a thing through whatever mechanism, the drop rates would have to be balanced around that to encourage actually using it while still leaving the average play-time for players roughly equivalent because leaving drop rates very high alongside trading will kill play-time, and I’m not even normally one to ask for more grind. I don’t see why anyone would want their drops curtailed just so they can be pushed towards using the cold unfeeling AH apparatus. If the idea of exchanging one legendary for another seems appealing, it would probably be better integrated into a Kanai’s Cube equivalent anyway.
The AH only benefitted item flippers, chinese botters & third party sellers. Which is why the OP is so desperate for it to come back.
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I repeat again: there is youtube.
Even without LB there will be possibility to compete.
So there will be necessity for botting. 
It is evident but I mean another thing - if rankings will be about skill (not about paragon and even - especially for you - about gear) bots will be still there. Like cheaters in D3 on PS3. There are complaints about them with no reaction from Blizz. Moreover, in the system I suggested bots will provide exactly near to zero profit for rankings.
Are there exact numbers about the amount of ones (who like AH) or others (who do not like AH)? Nope. So: why do you think that they are 50% on 50%?
And this knowledge is absolutely not important in the case of ideal AH in this thread just because it will be optional and with the possibility to view in the rankings only ones that do not use AH at all.
Moreover, as I said early - there is some set of facts that allows to suppose that amount of players that want AH is very big (facts about RoS, absence of the second addon like RoS, trade in D4).
I repeat again: we dissussing in this thread version of AH WITHOUT decreasing of the current drop rates.
You are wrong. The rarest items will be rarest and will cost big amount of gold. Because they are rarest. And on AH with millions users all these users want them, hence they can’t cost “pennies”. For that it is needed to have tens or hunreds millions of such items on AH that is impossible due to the fact that they are RAREST items.
We walking in a circle with you.
What time is needed for this? For that such big amount of these rare items will appear on AH? And do not forget, please, about casual players that can play only 2-3 hours in a day. Who will provide such big amount rare items for all these millions players (do not forget the simple fact the most of them are casual players)?
And even if the situation will be exactly as you described - who is forced you and others opponents of AH to use such cheat? Just do not use it and play without it.
Yeah. It is the additional reason why there are so many garbage in D3. One more - sets which buff only some abilities so legs on other abilities or ones that have their own effects (like ones that call angels or demons or another mobs or just make their own damage) are useless. Of course, it is possible to fix this problem with the tons of garbage in D3 (by balancing all of them), but - as you understand - it is the biggest amount of work for devs. In comparison with returning of AH which uses its own server and can’t damage the core of the game.
Do not be simple. No, of course.
I do not see big difference about trade and AH excepting some moments about convenience of AH in comparison with trade. If you have ideal loot system (like in RoS - by words of devs), you do not need neither trade nor AH. But in D4 they introduced trade though they still talk about “ideal loot system” in D4 (like in D3). In these facts I see logic contradiction. You do not see. Moreover, you see the big difference between trade and AH, though you can’t explain the sence of this difference.
I see 2 another ways:
- very big amount of likes of the first post of this thread;
- failing of D4 and returning to idea of AH for testing it in D3.
I do not play in MMO at all. D4 will have some features of MMO, so I will not buy D4 too (by this and some set of another reasons - I did exception for RoS just because I already had D3 and without RoS this game became unplayable + I already knew about some bad moments of this game; but I do not want to buy new game which will have all bad moments of D3 + additional bad moments from MMO while the first one can be solved with the minimum efforts).
I see such strange arguments at first time. No one before compared players with and without gear in the discussions about top places of rankings because all of them understand the simplest thing that without gear is impossible to compete so they always compared different versions of the same gear (ancients vs primals or so on) and they never compared players with and without gear. Only you can use such arguments.
Only according you and your “unique” understanging of words I said.
I repeat many times already: I compare the different variations of the same gear (MEDIUM version of it and TOP version of it) to see the profit of it. And then I compare this profit with the profit that paragon gives (say, 2k vs 6k). Only you can compare players with medium gear and small paragon with the players without gear at all and big paragon.
Yes. I said exactly this. With the same sence I wrote above.
Very strange argument, I think. Or not. Just because big paragon means usually very big amount of hours in the game and ones who have job and other hobbies (programming or creating their mods for other games) can’t allow for them to spend so big amount of time for gaming (especially, in one game). I.e. big paragon does not mean big IQ, sooner contrariwise. For example, devs can’t allow for themself to play in D3 all their time, but you do not use arguments about your paragon when you are talking about them and their “professionalism”.
Because paragon is farmed in the last case.
Moreover, they said nothing about fishing GR. 
I removed this possibility. And devs removed it too for D4.
By this item:
Further:
Yeah. Now players (most of them) do not play neither in D3 nor in AH. 
I repeat again: Valve (Steam) does not have such problems.
Trade = AH. You can’t explain the difference between them.
ok. Math: 6k paragon vs 2k paragon gives 20k of main stat = at least doubling of damage. Top gear vs medium gear (the same items of gear, not different, but with the different values of stats) can’t provide such power. Calculate by yourself or just look at the d3planner.
Good luck them. May be farm several top primals for the time of full season, may be not (because of random).
You described exactly holes of trade in D4. Good job.
Season. One ended, new begin. You never have full set of such items. Only in non-season where lovers of seasons do not play at all (they do not have time for this).
So your argument is very funny.
I do not have ban in google, on youtube and on forums (to read them), so it is not problem to know such things for anyone who want to know such things.
I played in D3 3k+ hours already. About 2k hours - in classic. If I do not have something, this means that I do not need this at all. For what purpose do I need big paragon? For rankings? To fish rifts? No, thanks.
With the best loot system trade is not needed at all.
Hence, something wrong with loot system in D4 if there is trade in it.
They did not have it. In seasons.
Yeah. Millions tons of garbage and tens / hundreds useful items. For millions players.
How do you think, if D4 will have no success, players of D4 (that bought D4) will see all these expansions about which devs talking now (promised them) or not?
Or do they also prefer to make D5 instead of fixing D4?
I know that Valve does not have any legal issues with its own AH on Steam, while Blizz have them, though both companies are from USA.
Please, give quote from their words where they said exactly the same as you.
AH is optional feature. Do not like - do not use. Very simple.
And Blizz doesn’t need a separate server to support HC. Just remove HC and players that want to play HC can just delete their character when it dies like they did before HC was ever supported in a game. This is basically what he is saying. It is an extreme hyperbole much like the ones that I use to teach others how wrong their suggestion, idea, etc… really is.
I don’t think that bots can be programmed to skip mobs and do a whole lot of other things that players do all of the time when pushing their limits. So there is some skill as far as doing what is needed to get the job done.
I have told you earlier that no matter how you spin it the AH will never return to this game. So get over it already.
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While this kind of rhetoric might do work for respecing - since respecing is a convenience feature without cost on the one hand and forgoing its use actually outright solves any problems of including it on the other - there is no chance that Blizzard will include the auction house without dialing back drop rates, since they’re going to want some amount of player retention. I can’t just “choose” for my drop rates to be restored. So we have to discuss the benefits and drawbacks. Most people who want trade want it because it fosters a sense of community, which is understandable, but the auction house entirely lacks that benefit. Moreover, Kanai’s cube more elegantly fills the role you’re casting the AH in here with none of the downside.
They did this already - with primals: effective drop rate of legs was decreased in 400 times. And instead of this:
they obtained leaving of players from this game (some of them moved into PoE which has trade so Blizz returned trade in D4). Very simple.
Exactly, you can. In seasons.
In one season you can play with AH.
In other season you can play without AH.
It is like you can play on soft or you can play on hard.
Nope. AH is much more useful accomodation of community than clans (with limited number of players in them) - it is real accomodation which allows to transform some items from tons of garbage that we have now in D3 into useful items (for another players through AH).
This cube can’t fills this role - it likes Kadala which gives 2x advantage, not 400x. And both of them are still about random. AH is not about random.
EH, not sure I would want AH in D3. It would be kinda funny now to return this after completely taking it down 
If it would return though I would not complain.
What I would want more are lower drop rates and simple ability to trade, maybe somewhat limited trade. But I doubt it will happen in D3. So yeah
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It is already funny that in D4 there is trade with all holes (bad moments) of AH from classic of D3. Which there is in PoE and players in this game ask devs about AH instead of trade due to uncomfortable of trade in comparison with AH. Moreover, in D4 the situation will be the same like it was in classic (i.e. trade will be just removed due to the exactly same holes as AH) or now in PoE (players will ask about AH instead of trade when they will experience it for themselves).
So Mortick’s bracers that is for a WW Rend Barb would be a useful item to trade if found on a Monk. It would still be useful even if it rolled with the following affixes.
- Vitality
- Armor
- Resist all
- life on hit
I think we know what barbs would say about that one. Just because you can trade items doesn’t change the affixes if it would be junk to you if you were playing that class and spec it will be junk for those that actually play that class and spec.
Look you can have a better community without the AH. How many people do you think actually got to know anyone at all in the AH days. I can tell you that no new relationships were made just because of an AH trade. Where you get good community is player to player trading not an AH.
If we ever get anything more than the 2 hour window of trade it will be a system that is similar to the gift system for the consoles. That is what Blizz said years ago on the subject.
AH doesn’t belong in a Diablo game and the limited trade system that D4 devs are working on is what will work if it is done right.
Yep, you must do it via website or be in a trade channels. Selling via channels is also not as comfy yet players manage 
The reason why people ask for AH is inconvenience. Some like the current way some don’t.
Anyways, I’m more of an old school person I guess and, I like player to player interaction while trading So, I’m OK’ish with current state, not perfect maybe could be better but whatever. Also, PoE filter system for items is pretty vast, it might require a huge amount of work to implement in AH, so we are sticking with a more basic form of trading, for now at least.
As I said already, AH can solve the problem with the tons of garbage due to accomodation of community. Clans can’t solve this problem at all. They have another purpose.
Yep.
I have big doubts in this. That devs can develope ideal trade system in D4 while they can’t fix holes of AH in classic and just removed it at all and further - in RoS - decreased effective drop rate of legs in 400 times to the level of classic. I.e. they even do not know what do they do.
It is not problem with the small amount of players, but it is big problem with the millions of players.
As I understood, PoE trade is like AH of D3 excepting existence of intermediate pool (gold) and additional requirement of 1-by-1 interaction of players like was in D3 and was a biggest hole which was used for trading through black markets. We do not see yet nothing like PoE-trade in Diablo and I have big doubts that Blizz can do something like and this means that you will have in D4 trade forums (instead of nice functional for searching of items in D3-AH or PoR-trade) and spam in chats that were in classic in addition to AH.
Yeah. Trade Forum, spam in chats, black markets and so on.
If you played during vanilla how many players did you get to know real well that you didn’t know before just because of the AHs? How many people do you really think made new friends because of the AHs? I don’t think that you will be able to make as many friends with AH trade as compared to direct player to player trade.
Look items that drop that are garbage will still get salvaged. There are plenty of drops of legendaries with affixes that are not good for any build or any class. Even if they are class specific. You seem to be of the opinion just because it dropped that makes it valuable to someone. Well affixes are what will determine whether it would be traded if trade existed in this game or not.
No amount of community support can transform a really bad rolled piece of gear into GG. You can only change one affix so if it is missing a total of three affixes like I mentioned in an earlier reply concerning bracers then there won’t be anything anyone can do about it and that item would get salvaged.
When they removed it they removed it for the reasons that they stated. They are not gonna be going back and put it back in just because you want them to. No matter how you state it the AH isn’t coming back.
If there would be something like Kanai’s cube with trading option someone could buy any roll for real cheap just to utilize it in such way.
Or for example, if well rolled item would cost A LOT but you could get a very very cheap one although badly rolled ust because of legendary power simply as a “starting ground” even such item might end up having some use.
But in general yes, if the item is so badly rolled as you’ve said, probably throw it on the ground for free or salvage
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