He at it again: How quickly things are forgotten - Solo Greater Rift Summary Per Class
I called him out there for dog whistling that Barbs don’t really have it as bad as we say we do, but I just don’t have the time and energy to explain what’s wrong with his data. Pro, Rage, Arch, y’all wanna give me a hand?
I am planning an analysis. Bad internet here but I may look at it.
Amen, godspeed.
I look forward. Make sure you wear the chef hat and cuss a lot.
I am thinking whether to include all classes but seeing devs are buffing others irresponsibly, I will simply only look at barb, wiz and necro…Getting 1000 data at each json file needs a fast internet. It is a pain right now.
Please don’t mischaracterize my OP. My OP is clear:
Barbs are currently bad. They need a buff.
Monks are currently bad. They need a buff.
You and I have the same goal in that we want to see cross class equity. I do not understand your tone.
In the past 4 eras and 6 seasons, other classes have been “worst” including demon hunters and witch doctors in terms of top 10 solo greater rift clears.
I feel like you have underappreciated the fact that there is more than one way to achieve the same goal. You want to buff support legendaries for barbs to achieve equity. Presumably, you also want other classes to have similar equity. I want an across the board buff for class equity. As you and I know within class build equity is more difficult.
I will wait for 2.6.6 to be out though. Other classes may probably receive some improvement through new items.
You get used to it.
You get used to this as well.
One big problem with the top 10 approach to analysis is that, by definition, it focuses on outliers. You get a much more accurate picture statistically if you look at things like top 50, median, and bottom 10. Those measures give far more accurate snapshots of the state of any class. Looking at just median and bottom 10 for the current season shows you how bad the state of barbarians really is.
Barbs are bad this season and era, irrespective of how you parse that data. I did look at the top 100, 1000, and median. Barbs should be buffed as well as other underperforming classes.
Fair enough, but when your analysis focuses exclusively on the outliers, you don’t really get the whole picture. For example, only the top 7 barbarians would even make the wizard leaderboard.
Actually JEB, my analyses use every existing data points on the leaderboards. It includes outliers as well as the average joes. In the past, I could identify very clear buff numbers for some sets, which we are currently using for barbs. This was back from S11 to S12. However, apparently devs kept messing with the balance achieved back then and now we have another mess to clean.
I will make another analysis when 2.6.6 is out and some LB clears can occur. Currently having trouble with internet (on holiday).
You can see some of the old works here:
S11 Analysis (when things were very unbalanced):
https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/6unrgr/analysisseason_11_data_greater_rift_clearing/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x
S12 Analysis (after buffs and achieved balance):
https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/7gv52h/analysisseason_12_data_greater_rift_clearing/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x
I was talking about MicroRNA’s recent analysis. I’ve actually followed your posts. Your methodology is right in line with what I was talking about. As you say, though, it is out of date. Trying to make new conclusions, as MicroRNA does, with simple top ten 10 analysis is not a reasonable substitute. I’ll be curious to see how your upcoming retake is received.
Oh yes you do.
When you do this:
But you also do this:
The latter looks like a dog whistle to nerf Barbs.
Maybe you don’t intend it that way, and if that’s the case, you really, really, really need to stop and re-consider your approach.
My comprehension is very different than yours. The argument that was put forrh is simply barbs are currently the worse solo class and a buff is in order. Over the past 2 years, other classes had the unfortunate title of “worse” in solo. The conclusion that the second observation is a “dog whistle” calling for a barb nerf is erroneous and contradicts the first statement.
I am relstively comfortsble with Micro’s numbers and those posted online in the 2.6.6 barabarian buff proposal website.
You seemed troubled by Micro’s numbers since it ignores the nuance /correction for differences in paragon levels, augments, and legendary gem levels. The same is true for the buff website. Criticism of micro’s numbers would lead to the same critique of the barb buff proposal. Double standards are bad.
That is only part of the argument, and without additional context, is a gross oversimplification of the conclusions we drew. There are several additional problems with Barbs; their current power deficit is a symptom, not the disease.
We have many problems with his “data,” many of which have been discussed ad nauseum.
That’s not how it works. A dog whistle is a dog whistle. There’s also the problem that he and others have posited, which is that there’s a relationship between a class’s inclusion in group metas and their solo power, and however he’s backpedaled or clarified, that very idea is problematic and has been parroted by others.
I’m uncomfortable with a lot of what’s in his post, but a simpler way to put it is this: Barb experts, including one of the best players in the game across multiple classes, have chimed in and explained to him that his particular approach is misguided. He hasn’t listened–which, seeing as it’s a public forum and he’s free to disagree, is fair. We’ve asked him to chill and take our word for it. Those are fair requests, his freedom of choice to disregard that advice is also fair; so, too, is the criticism we’ve directed at his ideas.
In other words, there’s no debate about what exactly are the problems with the Barb class because we’ve laid those out in detail.
Our website does not ignore nuance and Paragon. If you think that, you haven’t read it in depth, nor looked at the various posts I and other Barb experts have made.
TLDR: One of these things is not like the other.
I have read the barbarian proposal in detail and it is clear from the description of the problems with that class. The solutions discussed will never be implented in full. It looks like you want an entire overhual of the class. Maybe, you will.get a barbarian class that meets your expectations in another game or in D4.
For better or worse, barbs asked repeatedly for Morticks to return to the game. I.have read the posts about why it isn’t a buff and agree.
Unfortunately, Blizzard provided precisely what barbs asked for. Just look at the 2.6.5 PTR forum. You can claim that those posts wanting Morticks back were ignorant. I am also not saying that you made any such posts. I’'m too lazy to check who said what. Nev even alluded to the fact that this was one of the most requested items for barbs if you do not believe me. There is a saying:
Be careful what you ask for, you might actually get it.
Please forgive typos since I’m on my phone.
Saying dog whistle is your get out of free jail card to imply anything you want to a person be it true or not. Just because you “feel” like he is implying it doesn’t mean he his and you shouldn’t base your arguments off that “feeling” alone.
Argue the point that barbs have had it worse for longer than any other class. That is a legit argument to be had. You can also argue his numbers (which you did and were right about his data). Why then accuse him of dog whistling for nerfs? It is an underhanded tactic saved only for those who wish to attack others without proof.
To end my little rant, don’t attach motives to people that have never said anything close to what you are accusing them of.
Garbage in, garbage out.
I read the thread. My brain hurts… a lot.
Some folks are working these forums hard for TL3.
On a serious note. Nev stated, after Free and Rages prop came out, that the info had been passed onto the devs. These lads worked on it for weeks n weeks on the old forums and hats off to them Big Time 
Because of this Blue attraction (in Nev) all the attention seeking, self serving noddies have come out with “hey look at me too! I have a betterz idea coz I am so meeeeee”.
Where was they over the few weeks plus that Free n Rage n Co. put this together?!?
To sum up these peeps I’m gonna start calling them Seagulls. They aren’t Trolls but Seagulls. Ever taken Chips, Fries or food to a beach/marina and the Seagulls finally flock to get an easy feed. They wont fish like other marine birds, they wait for someone else to do the work and them BAM they’re there in ya face.
Welcome to the party Seagulls 
I’m good at english, I believe, but jeeezzz boys/girls. I’m from Quebec(french province), and I moved to Calgary(English province). I get alone with everyone and even at work, we use specific wording. But hell jeeezzz, You guys sound just like the Tv show Suits. I got to Google the sh!t out of every damn words in those Counter-Counter arguments. I’m actually lost. Could someone give me the score? Is Team Free winning or Team Micro/Decipher ?
Ok back on the topic. I’m a big fan of Barb. I’m sad to see that people like (Team Micro) are pushing against something that Team Free willingly did just to make a wheel turn.
Honestly, let’s face it. They buff Barb on 2.6.6. The wheel will spin and things will move. What is going to be next? Monk/Dh will cry because now it’s them that are in the jam behind ?
Barb had at least 3 out 4 wheel stuck, if we unclog it for 2 of them and we manage to do something. The way I see it, the whole community was pushing at the damn cart stuck. If no one is pushing for your own cart… well, talk about it on YOUR OWN COMMUNITY forum, ask for help. This is was we did, and we got people pushing with us.
We don’t need people coming at us and jump on the cart while we pushing it. It ain’t going to make your cart moving. That’s bad sportsmanship. The game is competitive, but at what point? You will win what if you rank 1st on next patch ?
I learned it the hard way. On D2 2001, I skipped college and sleep 8 hours out of 7 days. Ranked 2nd with a Barb level 83, when WW lance barb were popular. I got nothing out of it except a good lesson. The only reason I remember that forever is that after I finished my marathon, I learned that the 2 towers fell down a week later.
Don’t be greedy and spit on other people hard work. Not nice. Be a team player.