You jinxed it 
Table has almost been posted.
EXACTLY 
You’re the one who’s lacking comprehension skills on these forums.
COMMON SENSE would be to BUFF other skills and weaker class sets and supporting items to at least be viable to clear 120-130 GR and I bet that some players might even do 140 GR with these changes I made in my “wall of text” post, but unfortunately you didn’t even care to look at these changes just noticed “moar powahcreep”, cause that’s all you and other people like you can do…
At least in the BARB community when I made item suggestions they were discussed by other forum members and they may either agree with me or give me hints on what would be a better solution for this specific item and I might agree with them or not.
Unfortunately that’s NOT the case with people crying for nerfs and whining about endless “powahcreep”… You probably never played any modded game in your life, yet alone mod one yourself, cause you only think that mods make the game faceroll everything one shooting anything that stands in your way… 
Why don’t you PLEASE tell me how nerfing the Wiz Tornado build created more diversity for Wizards, same with the recent “Archon” nerf which made Wizards pretty much BEHIND almost every other class in the game…
Same with all that BS asking for nerfs logic like little children in kindergarten who cry because other kids are more liked than you or have a better, bigger toy than you…
PLEASE tell me how nerfing the Crusader builds created more diversity for this class, same with the recent WDs Mundunugu build set…
Of course they had to nerf the WD because Crusader cleared a 150 GR SOLO and Wizard too before so it’s obvious that it should be nerfed right? 
This illogical approach to balancing items is why we have NO DIVERSITY AT ALL and always end up with ONE OP build per season doing 150 GRs SOLO while others are left in the dust, cause Dev(s), are too lazy to buff other sets or AT LEAST 2 class sets per class for each New season.
It’s either that or they’re not allowed and are strictly ordered to provide us with only one OP build per season by whoever is in charge of the D3 RoS dev(s) team…
I really hope Blizz won’t listen to all that NERF this NERF that, cause some cheaters did 150 GR in season non sense and actually FOCUS on making other class sets and supporting items BETTER, rather than DESTROYING what’s working FINE or already existing builds and Limit the current build diversity even more…
I for one would love if they STOPPED ignoring players suggestions who want to have more strong PET builds, cause I would really LOVE to play a Phalanx Archers crusader, Mystic Ally monk build or Ancients barb build and be able to clear at least a 120-125 GR with this build as easy as with the current DHs GoD…
3 Likes
But… but… I didn’t say his name three times!
2 Likes
Do I have to really explain that bit of logic to you? Think about what I said originally, and how that works to balance the game.
- People were asking for GoD6 bug fixes, particularly with missile dampening, this means a pierce cap on Ninth Cirri satchel.
- Many want to see adjustments to hungering arrow such that other primary skills and rune options become viable too (Bolas/Grenade) This ultimately means boosting the power of GoD6 set bonus, so that the existing hungering arrow build remains powerful.
- Everyone wants other DH dps skills to be able to conquer GR137+.
- Nobody wants #1 and #2 without #3 occurring first.
Why are we arguing again? Is there no trust in #1 and #2 being done correctly?
2 Likes
I agree. For Devouring arrow GoD build, it needs both a nerf to devouring arrow and a buff to make other primary skills and runes to have more power.
Personally, a nerf to an OP build does not need to result in becoming the weakest solo class. A nerf can be done with a surgical scalpel and not a sledgehammer. Your hyperbole weakens your argument.
This is one of the reasons that I created a thread during the last PTR to get holy point shot further buffed.
Some players have the opinion that classes should only be buffed and never nerfed. They are entitled to that preference. My opinion is that both buffs and nerfs should be used to achieve balance in power between classes as illustrated. This viewpoint appears to be shared by the developers. Please see the Developer’s Game Balance blog post:
https://us.diablo3.com/en/blog/23290575/[d3]-developer-insights-balancing-class-set-design-1-28-2020
The blog post states:
"While this is our goal, we also recognize we aren’t always going to hit it perfectly. Like many games, Diablo III has a lot of mechanical details. A single change can ripple through many other parts of the game, so it’s important we’re mindful of what each change can affect. We also realize that, even with special care, it may take us a few tries to achieve our intended result. To account for this, we have a scale for error, based on how a class is performing above or below our guideline:
- +/- 1-2 Greater Rift Levels: Very close. Probably fine, when accounting for random elements (the perfect “fish”) or high player skill cap (excellent play and timing).
- +/- 3-4 Greater Rift Levels: The warning zone. We need to watch for buffs/nerfs in this area, but action may not yet be necessary. Time to keep an eye on it!
- +/- 5 or more Greater Rift Levels: Warrants significant change. At this range, it’s clear that something is over (or under) performing and needs to be addressed."
Of note, they presented their table showing that as of early December 2019, 5 of the 7 classes had the same or more solo power than their definition of having an ideal class set at the time (solo GR 130 power in non-season @ 5k paragon). The biggest outlier was crusaders at GR 138. Needless to say, crusaders were nerfed twice to reduce their power. Strikingly, the devouring arrow GoD build has more players in non-season who have soloed GR 150 than the number of crusader players in any non-season era.
Although you think your idea is common sense, there are obvious counter arguments like the one discussed above. One reason that I dislike the “always buff, never nerf” strategy is that it leads to a constant power creep and imbalance. The changes to solo power has consequences for group play. In non-seasons, the 4 man meta has been constant for years in that there are 2 DPS dealers where the specific classes have varied. There are 2 zDPS players (invariably monks and barbarians for years). In non-season era 10, there were 34 teams worldwide who cleared GR 150 in 4 man groups. In the current non-season era 13 on the EU leaderboard alone, a player in a 4 man group would need to clear GR 150 in under 9 minutes and 53 seconds to be in the top 1000. The top worldwide GR 150 4 player non-season clear is now under 3 minutes. To be among the top 2000 GR 150 clears in 4 man group currently, one would need to clear the greater rift in roughly 6.5 minutes. To me, this clearly illustrates the power creep that has occurred in era 11-13.
https://us.diablo3.com/en/profile/MicroRNA-1507/career
I think that simple inspection of my career profile page would demonstrate that I play all classes from 4%-32%. For DHs, my most played class @32%, I have more than 2,000 hours. For me, it is not and has never been about class warfare. It is about having all classes with similar power. I want any player irrespective of the class that they prefer to play to have similar power and opportunity. I advocate for buffing weak classes such as barbarians and monks pre-parch 2.6.7. Also, I wish that wizards and monks get significant buffs in patch 2.6.10. Similarly, I advocate for nerfs to OP classes such as the current DH and patch 2.6.8 WD, my second most played class @28%.
1 Like
If you think current DH GoD build is OP than you’re more clueless than you look like…
This build is SO OP that NO ONE even wants it in 4 Man META groups…
There are less than 5 players in TOP 100 of the leaderboards…
This build is a horrible trash killer, compared to UE Multishot and a slow GR killer…
ALL 150 GRs made in season by this build were by ABUSING the SEASON THEME and 10000+ paragon in non season…
The only problem with the DHs GoD build is how strong the hungerring arrow skill is with it, but if you and others Nerf Geniuses get this build nerfed DH will get back to be one of the WORST classes in game, cause some players can’t handle that DHs, just like WDs, Saders or Wizards before cleared a 150 GR SOLO probably by using THUD anyway, so any clear that was done using any “cheats” whether THUD, botting for GR keys, account sharring etc. MEANS NOTHING AT ALL!!!
Don’t expect Blizz to listen to the “nerf” suggestion of the forum poster who wanted to buff the set itself to 20000% or 30000% (6 pieces) and just limit the amount of enemies pierced by the hungering arrow.
If Blizz nerfs this build than it will get nuked from the orbit and for what, cause JEALOUS (insert lines of curse words) “players” can’t stand that DHs just like WDs and Saders or Wizards before got some love…
DHs have NO Other strong build. Nerfing DHs GoD would be the DUMBEST thing to do and Blizz would only P1S5 a lot of people of just like they did with the previous POINTLESS WD, Saders, or Wizards “archon” builds nerfs…
“How many times do we have to teach you this lesson old man?!”…
3 Likes
There is a difference between solo power and being in the group meta. My comments and data were for solo power. In the blog post, they use solo power to determine an ideal class set.
I looked at the 4 man non-season leaderboards. The leaderboard was not reset when patch 2.6.9 was introduced. Therefore this leaderboard has old clears patch 2.6.8 (pre-crusader and witch doctor nerfs) and new clears with patch 2.6.9.
There are 6 new player/teams that set new leaderboard highs in non-season during patch 2.6.9 on the America region server in the Top 100. These are currently ranked 42, 83, 88, 94, 95, and 98. ALL had DH in their group. In patch 2.6.9 non-season on the America region 4 man leaderboard, the top new leaderboard GR 150 clear was 5.5 minutes and included a DH as well as every other new patch 2.6.9 clear in the top 100.
That is why ALL the data I provided was era/non-season data. The developers also use non-season data to balance the game. This avoids confounders due to seasonal themes.
There are 7 DH players worldwide who have solo cleared GR 150 with less than 10,000 paragon including a player with 7,450 paragon in less than 14 minutes. In comparison, pre-nerf crusader had 3 sub 10k paragon player solo GR 150 in non-season.
Please reread my post. I main a DH. I stated that a nerf should be with a surgical scalpel and not a sledgehammer. I stated that the build should not be “nerfed to the ground.” I said the build needed to be fixed relative to devouring arrow rune and buffed to make other primary skills/rune viable.
I have more than 2,000 hours on DHs. It is my most played class. I want all classes to have similar power and equal opportunity. Fair is fair. Facts are facts. The problem with any OP build is that all other classes/builds are weaker in comparison.
1 Like
Wow 7 people Gosh that is sooo many player…it’s like everyone is reaching this level of play…OMG we can’t have that. Since the classes do not compete against each other (directly) then all DH players have the same opportunities. As does each class to be the best in their own class. Personally I do not play Barbs or WD…I really do not care if you give the Barab a light sabre or the WD pixie dust bombs the nuke everything on screen…I still would not play those classes as they are not fun for me.
I like the monk and DH and I am barely shy of soloing GR 100 for the first time…Have not been able to do that in DH with any other set as it does not fit my play style. GoD fits really well and realize the problem is not the GoD set, it only amplifies what already exists in “balance” Shopping for GRs with lots of missile dampeners will always do more damage with HA devouring arrow, with or without GoD…Granted without the set you are not going to really be hitting over GR 100, but you can still see the effects of that at lower GRs. The problem is not GoD.
Funny how with nearly the same number of Necros clearing GR 150 as Saders before nerfing…Why isn’t anyone calling to nerf Necros…21 is such a large number. Gee the game will break if another makes it too GR 150.
They may get nerfed too if there is consistency with changes that Blizzard adopted in patch 2.6.9.
For game balance, it appears that your perspective is shaped by the classes that you prefer to play. In my initial response to you, I linked the Developer’s game balance blog post. It is linked again for your convenience.
https://us.diablo3.com/en/blog/23290575/[d3]-developer-insights-balancing-class-set-design-1-28-2020
In this blog post, they describe the metrics that they use/used to determine the strength of an ideal class set. It is based on a 5k paragon player on the non-season leaderboard. I suspect that it is no longer GR 130 solo but a smidgen higher. You can compare leaderboards to get a sense of relative class strengths, keeping in mind that the current non-season crusader and witch doctor clears are predominantly from patch 2.6.8, resulting in nerf. Compare those to other current classes.
I think both monks and wizards need buffs in patch 2.6.9 as these classes appear weakest to me.
There was a claim that there was no DH worldwide that cleared solo GR 150 with less than 10,000 paragon. A DH soloed GR 150 in less than 14 minutes at paragon 7,450 in non-season.
I documented that all leaderboard entries in the America region in the top 100 of the 4 player leaderboard that occurred during patch 2.6.9 had a DH in the group.
Here’s the the thing…I only play non-season between seasons and am nowhere near 5k paragon and unfortunately those nerfs hit hardest on those less than 5k paragon.
Again how many people are playing. These numbers are overwhelming
The game balance blog post explains the developer’s thoughts on game balance. It makes sense to me to balance the game around higher paragon player who made the top 1000 leaderboard per region and who likely have more optimal gear and in some cases better game knowledge. If I were the developer, I would do the same thing.
Alternatively, I will ask a rhetorical question. Why would you want to balance the game around sub 1k paragon players who have suboptimal gear? As a developer, I would want the game easy to learn and difficult to master.
Probably not. How many low paragon player are really getting mobs tightly packed to maximize area damage and the benefits of devouring arrow. A change to devouring rune would not affect casuals as much as tryhards.
Pretty disingenuous of you to bring this up in a topic about nerfing GoD set and conveniently leave out that all of these demon hunters doing high level 4 player clears are on a support build
1 Like
I didn’t look at what their build was. I simply responded to the comment that DHs were not welcome in 4 man groups. If DHs become obligatory zDPS and also were one of the DPS, how would that be fair to the other classes as they would all be competing for a single spot as DPS?
Also, I think the set needs to be changed to nerf devouring rune and buff the set to support other runes/primary skills. It is a nerf to a rune and a buff to a set if you read what I wrote.
For everyone too lazy to read through the whole thread , here is a quick summary:
Opener: Omg, DH so imba where are the nerfs in the patchnotes
Random Guy 1 (RG from now on): No, they are ok
RG 2: Yeah maybe a little overtuned, but thats mostly because of Hungering Arrow / Missile Dampening Affix - fix this instead or limit pierces.
RG3: But but, look at all those 150 clears.
RG4: Seasontheme + Dampeners:
RG5: But, ahhm, DH is good in every field an in all Metas! Cant play anything besides DH
RG6: DH is in no Meta , other sets trash. Leave it as it is.
RG3: But WDs and Zaders also were nerfed so nerf DH
RG 5: Yeah, dont repeat that error of nerfing --> see WD and Zader
RG7: Buff other classes instead
RG8: No, no cause of Powercreep–> Nerf DH and other classes to a simmilar lvl
RG9: Buff DH i want DH to be Meta, besides that DH not imba
RG3: Look look Leaderboards, DH clearly imba
RG10: Here are my proposals of the changes on the GoD-Set (that we wont see anyhow)
For gods sake, there will be always a class that is slightly stronger weaker than other classes in one field…sometimes even at more fields. Something as perfect balance doesnt exist. Not in any Videogame and not in Real Life. Man if people would spent so much effort thinking and complaining about why a Mathteacher or a Nurse earns less than somebody working on the development of a new fancy shotgun, this would be a better world. And we can be happy that we still see patchnotes/new items in such an old game.
If there wouldnt be such thing, there would be no motivation to play the game at all.
Imagine if evey class with 5k Paragon is guaruantueed to be able to clear 135 and fail at 137. This is what perf balance would look like.
Then the QoL of the builds would be different and many people would switch to builds that are easy to play…then we see threads in those forums where people complain about that their needs a skill to be more often activated than a skill on the other class and they want to see buffs/nerfs again.
So here is my suggestion: Just put 2 words in the forum on the blacklist “buff” and “nerf”. And the only thing that people can create are Wishlist-Threads with detailed suggestions.
If such a thread then has no summary of said wishlist where everybody works together like in the thread at the barb-forum, the thread gets closed after 20 days past its creation
3 Likes
We should address the outlier first, which is missile dampening. This elite affix alone, which is almost as strong as a conduit in the right circumstances, brings about 5+ GR’s worth of power by itself and that’s only if you get one of them.
If you just nerf the DA rune and don’t touch missile dampening, then you’ll still see 150 clears. Because HA is uncapped, it doesn’t matter how much you nerf DA, the moment it hits missile dampening, it’s going to hit ridiculous pierce counts and scale. You’ll make the build even more reliant on missile dampening then it already is for those top clears. Instead of keying 1k keys, you’ll key in 2 to 4k keys for multiple missile dampening affixes to make up for the nerf.
This in turn will not only make the build less fun to play and more reliant on gimmick, but you’ll also nerf all other aspects of the build, such as speed GR’s, which right now is in a good spot. It will affect the people that had nothing to do with extreme pushes mainly due to an incredibly OP reaction with a single affix. That’s not fair.
I talked about this a lot on my stream, which eventually lead to Iria creating the “how to nerf DH” thread in GD. GoD6 DA, which is suppose to be a strong single target skill, is pretty bad at it’s job in the current state. Nerfing the rune itself only makes it worse. The uncapped pierces should be addressed instead, then buff the 6pc bonus and other supporting legendaries for bolas. This will, in turn help the other runes of HA, without destroying what the DA rune was designed to do in the first place.
If we have to have a quick “fix” to the build, then simply just remove missile dampening affix next patch. I bet you my life savings that if that affix no longer existed, you’d see signficantly less 150 clears with GoD6, and we wouldn’t see nearly as many “nerf DH” threads.
You misunderstood my reply. My response was to him wanting to bring GoD6 in line with our other builds. If that happens, we would indeed be the worst solo class in the game again. That is a fact.
You’ve been playing this game for a while as well, I’m sure you have to have data somewhere in which blizzard has applied more “sledgehammers” than “scalpels” over the course of D3’s life cycle. It’s never about what “can” be done, as the track record leaves a lot to be desired, but at least they are trying.
You have to look at what the build was because most of the builds that have dominated group meta were also dominant solo push builds as well.
GoD6 is interesting in this case because it is the strongest solo build atm by a large margin, yet is not part of the group meta. This should raise some red flags and questions as to why, given how well it clears solo content. This is the part people tend to gloss over, but it’s an important detail because every other GR 150 or “near 150” solo build clear that has been nerfed has also been dominant in group play. This is not the case with GoD6.
Since it doesn’t mess with group meta, nor does it force an individual to level up a god6 build for xp or gem ups to compete on solo ladder (unlike necros and zbarbs), I think the fact that it performs as well as it does only strictly solo is, while not preferred, “ok” for now until they implement further DH changes.
2 Likes
I knew it…all the nerf-threads are the fault of some streamer…damn it. Nerf streamers!
My 2 cents on this topic: No cirri changes needed, no rune-change needed. Just remove that damn affix or change it.
The affix clearly reads "missile dampening and not Missile-Enhancing. Therefore it is not working as intended and thats its.
1 Like
Perhaps the best idea yet as that really seems to be the issue.
If balancing needs to be done, it should be done on the mean and not the high end. The high end are outliers and just as you would not choose the noobs with no gear, you should not choose the highest…The highest tend to be botting using THUD or other maphacking tool to find and utilize the optimal GRs for time and success.
That would solve a majority of the problem…Aside from HA, other missile attacks also gain multiple strikes causing more damage than designed… have seen this with a monks lashing tail kick where the boss is sitting in the fireball being hit multiple times, as well as affixes from the Shard of hate and sash of knives can also cause multiple strikes in missile dampening.
I stopped reading the nonsense here!
So either it’s pure provocation or you really don’t know that there is an IMPALE set . but even if you just look at the weapon at the DH … you can SEE it! unless one is blind …
2 Likes
I’ve refrained from posting in this thread since it was likely created as a troll attempt by a player with a few alternate accounts. That said, I’ll respond to valid points and try to politely correct misinformation.
While I understand what you mean, balancing around the top end is by far the best option. If you don’t balance the top end, then the mid-range players will diverge as they progress higher creating a bigger imbalance.
That is a misinformed guess. True, there are some players who do use cheat programs or bots, but there are a lot of legitimate players too. If you watch certain streams (e.g. Raxxanterax or Wudijo) you can see legit players claiming rank 1. Of course they play 12+ hours a day and spend thousands of GR keys to get those perfect rifts, but they are still legit.
This isn’t the case, only skills classified as projectiles are affected by missile dampening. There are a lot of DH ranged skills that are NOT affected by missile dampening: Multishot, Cluster Arrow, Rain of Vengeance, Evasive Fire, Fan of Knives, and all rocket attacks. Furthermore, with the exception of Elemental Arrow - Ball Lightning, no other DH skill can hit more than once (twice for Multishot with DML). In the case of Ball Lightning, the damage per hit doesn’t increase with the number of hits, has a far lower multiplier, and has no supporting legendaries to buff its damage (Kridershot makes it free, Augustine’s slows it down).
I do agree that removing the Missile Dampening elite affix is a step in the right direction. To compensate for that nerf and buff the mid-range as you wanted, allowing Hungering Arrow to pierce walls would be a welcome balance.
Instead of removing Missile Dampening, capping the number of pierces would do the same but leave the door open for a similar issue if/when Elemental Arrow - Ball Lightning is buffed.
While the streamers may highlight the issue, they are just the messengers! It is very likely that the missile dampening issue was discovered independently by many players.
I’ll link my other thread here so people who haven’t seen it can read it and its 170+ posts! How to nerf DH for real!
I really doubt there are any scientists working at Blizzard. It doesn’t take math higher than algebra, statistics, and possibly trigonometry (for graphics) to make games. Perhaps AI development is where the highest level of math is involved for games (and it’s mostly statistics and linear algebra). I do agree Blackfeather needs the 600% buff to rockets though!