Your thread is about DH and Necro not getting buffed and then you bring barb into equation. Now enjoy the argument with someone who wants to straighten the fact about barbarian class in your thread.
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Okay then we must hold Blizz to the strictest literal definition of every word that they say. The same holds true for other things in real life. It has to apply to all industries and jobs. Now you really want to go that far just to be nit picking this area. Besides like I said it only talks about DH not necro. Further I said could, which is not definite. Plus in video games nothing is set in stone. There could’ve been a hold up in the new set or new things that they have planned that they haven’t talked about yet. Where the barb’s was ready to go. So it could’ve been DH, WD, and Wizard but somehow the DH’s sets or support legendaries just weren’t ready to be released. But the barbs was ready.
I am talking about the idea that players seem to think that they have to always play the strongest build of the strongest class. Like it is some requirement, either you do that are you are not playing the game correctly. At least that is what I got from the portion that I was commenting on.
Also paragons cannot overcome the sheer luck of the GRs. Anyone that gets the right rift layout, enemies, pylons, etc… can clear a higher GR than someone with lower paragons. Paragons are not the end all be all as far as GR clears goes.
You are missing the whole point here. Sure they got attention, but was it the attention that they were wanting. Do you really think that barbs love the idea that their only role in the meta is a zdps setup. I don’t think so, not when you have game that is designed to be where you the player are the one doing the damage. Doing the killing and looting.
Look at Wizards they got more love than DH and Necros but still they were stuck to using Archon for a long time. Simply because there wasn’t anything else that was nearly as strong as Archon. Oh IIRC it was lightning Archon builds that were the king for many long seasons. So just a few tweaks here and there that don’t change what the complaint is about is showing a lot of attention and love to the class. I don’t think so.
Are token changes that really don’t change anything about the class or make things better for them really great changes for the class. By your own words I could make the most changes to DH’s and Necros were they would get just a few percentage point changes to their gear every patch for 20 seasons. Wow what attention. But if those percentages don’t really address the real issues have I really showed that love to the class that is needed. What would the majority have to say about it.
Would you say the same thing if Blizz changed a few sets of the DH like they did with Firebirds and Tal Rasha’s changes. After all your DH class got some changes. They were not neglected.
You are saying forget about quality and look at the quantity is what your argument is all about. Where he and I am saying quality is more important than quantity even though you disagree with that for some strange reason.
Yes I know you are looking at quantity over quality. What if Blizz gave the same quantity to the DH and Necro but still didn’t give a great deal of quality, would you be happy with just the sheer quantity. Even though the quantity doesn’t really address all of the important issues with the class.
This is what he is talking about. The issues of the class that the players are having should be addressed. Not just a few number tweaks here and there along with some things removed, nerfed or added back many seasons later.
This means that you don’t care about the problems that the players are having with the new sets. I guess the same would be true when the DH gets its new set. Just because the set is there is all that matters. It could have as many issues as the other classes new sets but that wouldn’t mean a thing to you because you got the new set right.
You finally see the light here, quality better matter to you or you are saying to Blizz just give us a quantity with very little to no quality.
If you were around for the beginning then you would know that WW barb was the only build that majority of players used for a long time. Due to it being the strongest build in the game. The other was the CM (Critical Mass) Wiz build. Blizz had to make changes so more builds would be played. Hence some of the changes to barbs were for such things and more.
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I think you better take another look at his posts and you might see the issue here. He doesn’t care if the issues of the class are addressed in the patches. He doesn’t care if the patches provide quality. To him only quantity matters. Although I would say what would he have to say of Blizz gave a whole bunch of quantity to the DH and Necro but very little to no quality.
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A whole bunch of quantity? Are you serious? We got long needed buffs in 2.6 patch for UE MS and shadow impale, with a few buffs to legendary items too (which made LON rapid fire popular), but that was it. Even then, the buffs were sub par compared to other character class/builds. Several patches onwards, other character classes/builds have been buffed even more, without DH getting any love, and we’re even further behind than we were at patch 2.6.0!
If you see that as DH getting some love, you’re sorely mistaken and need to take those rose tinted glasses off!!!
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Barbs got very nice buffs last patch, and are getting more goodies this patch…2 patches in a row. How is that fair? DH have been even more neglected than barbs were - and yes, barbs were neglected, you’ll get no argument from me on that point. What you, and others are trying to do, is falsely make out that DH have gotten more buffs than barbs over the years, when that is blatantly untrue. Barbs are in a far better place than DH are, even pre 2.6.7 patch. Barbs have been rightly whining for a fair while, but at least you had a place in the 4 man meta. DH haven’t even had that!!! I know some barbs have tried to argue that inclusion in the 4 man meta is unnecessary and I counter and say that that is a blatant lie.
I’d like to see Blizzard look at tracking stats for which character classes/builds are most popular in the 4 man meta, and which of them are pulling in the biggest paragons every single season…bet it ain’t DHs!
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What you are missing out on is that quantity doesn’t not mean quality. That is what the whole back and forth between those other two posters have been.
One says just because of a lack of quantity that the DH is the most screwed class. And the barbs have had the most attention.
Whereas the other has said even with quantity it doesn’t mean that the barbs are the most loved class and get the most of things. And I agree quality is equally is more important
It is like saying that each class has to have an equal number of patches. So to balance things out that they would make things where Necros would be the only class that would get anything for x number of patches to catch up to the other classes then DH are treated the same then when they catch up to the the next lowest on on the totem pole then they would be added in till all class have had twenty patches devoted to them right. Then it would mean that all of the issues that the classes have will be solved and everything will be balanced.
This is what that the second one and I am talking about. If you have good quality patches that actually make good changes where it would truly bring the class where it needs to be. Patches that actually address the issues that players are having with the class that is what is important. Instead of having the same number of patches devoted to the class.
And the place is a zdps spec. Mind telling me how many players in MMOs love playing healer or tank over dps. I can tell you truthfully that dps’ are a dime a dozen in MMOs. It is a little harder finding someone that is willing to play the tank role, and even harder to find someone that is willing to play the healer role. Yes both those roles are support which the zdps is. So how much of a role is that.
Also like I said before Blizz could very well be having problems with the new DH set that meant it had to be pulled and the barb’s, WD’s or Wizard’s set was added since it was ready.
Take a look at the following link and then tell me whether or not DH’s have had a role in the four man meta.
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d3/t/4-man-meta-historical-perspective-and-request-for-changes/972
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quantity (without quality) is better than no, or very low quantity at all, no? Sure, in a perfect world, quantity + quality is desired, no argument from me there.
as to zdps barb, you missed my point entirely - at least you could play your main in the group meta and get more paragons and better chance of gear upgrades, even if you dislike the zdps build/role. DHs don’t even have that option, we HAVE to drop DH as our main when it comes to group meta play and play another character class/build…that is not desirable imho. DHs were in the group meta for s1 and s2, and s10 to some extent, and that’s it…we’re up to the 19th season now, and we’ve had 3 seasons out of 19 in the group meta, that’s 15%…far lower than any other character class/build.
DHs have been screaming for years at Blizzard devs to get us back in the group meta, but we have been ignored. And, we still are being ignored. Many of us are fed up, and that’s why the OP made this thread, with an opening sarcastic post.
We’re not trying to take anything away from any other character class/build, we just want some love for our character class and relevant builds. We want to compete in the 4 man meta. We want to be able to push as high as other character classes can with their respective builds. Witch Doctors are in the same predicament as DHs and it’s sad.
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While my opinion is : a hackNslash game should not resemble WoW with a healer and tank class. And zdps should not even be a thing, I understand what you are saying. If you want the best progress, Barbarian had a role.
However. I have never said anything about “oh well, screw the other classes”. I have even advocated for Dh to get elemental arrow build, chakram. And even a fix for the grenade primary skill build.
And even advocated to update if not all, then a lot of the legendaries, so they actually buff skills, so we get more builds, than just “oh look a legendary, let me autosalvage it”.
I didn’t say you said screw the other classes. I think most serious players play more than 1 character class/build, and want to see other builds compete. True, I think OP builds like bazooka wizard need to be nerfed, but that isn’t to do with disliking wizards, it’s because I want to see game balance, with multiple builds from each character class performing within 1-2 GRs of each other, and having a chance to be included in the group meta.
Most of the DH legendary items are instant salvage, and I suspect that this is similar for many of the other classes. Blizzard would be far better removing them from the game imho - no one uses them and they serve no purpose in the game…
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I’m not going to keep replying back and forth about everything we all type out because all its doing its creating a giant argument between us players which we will never agree with and this is also something I never wanted to begin with. I was never out to make people mad, attack others, or create an environment that caused this. I created this thread to bring attention to the fact that Demon hunters have been getting ignored the most and how the the patch cycles have become toxic to everyone. Its so toxic that instead of coming together to ask for changes we fight with one another over it. This already happened before patch 2.6.5 but since patch 2.6.5 the toxicity/jealousy level of the community has increased 10 fold.
As for ZDPS this is still better than not being in the meta, but with that aside the issue isnt entirely just the meta the issue is that we all are subjective on whats fun and whats not. Archon isn’t fun to some and thats why i quit that class, but to others it was and to me Wizards have no quality at all, but to you they might. This is the issue with “quality” everyone’s idea of it will always be different, even the developers and because of that we will never agree; However, we can all agree that everyone class should get an equal amount of “Attempted” adjustments even if those adjustments don’t always amount to new builds thats ok. The equal attempt for all classes is what matters to players and creates a fair
This I fully agree with and neither should we have cooldowns in D3 yet we do and those of us who hate this had to either deal with it, or never buy D3; Blizzard didn’t care that this is not the “Quality d3 sequel everyone expected, but it’s what the developers wants for us and that’s what determines the quality of the game/builds, but the players. To me cooldowns have greatly decreased the quality of every class, every build ever made, but to some cooldowns do the opposite and increase the quality of some builds. I never advocated that barbs or anyone else needed a nerf. My entire point of this thread is to get equal attention for all classes because after this patch cycle what do you think is going to happen in the next 2? The crusaders,Monks will be mad because they have been ignored for 2 patches and so on. No one will ever be happy with the “quality” because were all different people with different play styles and different idea’s of what quality truly is when it comes to this game and because of that trying to please players around quality really is an impossible task. Pleasing the players with an quantity of changes is actually achievable.
I also wrote this earlier which points out the exact problem with the new patch cycles and what its doing to the entire community.
Edit:
Ouch, I just noticed this link that you posted.
MicroRNA-1507Hi all,
I checked the history of the 4 man leaderboards. I wanted to summarize and give highlights of the available information. As we know, greater rift clears of 4 man groups are significantly higher than solo players. As such, inclusion in the 4 man meta greatly increases that classes ability to get higher level legendary gems as well as XP/paragon levels.
Please find below the classes and seasons which they are part of the dominant 4 man meta.
Barbarian
4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18Crusader
1,2,3,4Demon Hunter
1,1,2,2Monk
4,4,5,6,7,7,8,8,9,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18Necromancer (Introduced Season 11)
11,12,13,14,15,16,17Witch Doctor
1,2,3,5,6,7,8,9,10,11Wizard
3,3,10,12,13,14,15,16,17,18Since season 4, two classes (barbarians and monks) are always part of the 4 man meta.
No crusader or demon hunter has been part of the four man meta after season 4.
The four man meta in terms of class composition has not changed since season 12 where it is Barbarian, Monk, Necromancer and Wizard.
I think these observation suggest that there needs to be a significant overhaul to encourage greater class diversity in the 4 man meta.
I didnt know it was this bad for DH. At least Necro seems to be doing well. Looks like Season 19 needs to be added to that list and the upcoming season 20.
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To be fair, DH has always been the gold standard. It goes so fast that everybody just picks it by default.
The Necro is a new class, which means they had 100% freedom to create it without offending anybody, with the newest game design in mind. Adjustments should be minimal.
Not saying these classes don’t deserve changes, but as their revenue from D3 is likely pretty flat now, it doesn’t seem terribly unreasonable to pass on changing things just to change things.
Regarding “ No crusader or demon hunter has been part of the four man meta after season 4”
Yep, even if you had a relatively good shadow set up as a RGK compared to other builds you were usually booted from 4 player games. That was with last shadow changes a few seasons ago. DH in multiplayer games is the least valuable role period up through 2.6.8 PTR.
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This is to all concerning metas. There is something that you will never be able to get away from. There will always be the strongest trash killer, strongest RG killer, along with the normal support that will make the group the most efficient at getting really high GR clears done at the fastest time. Even if you could have it where there is a 1-2 GR’s difference it still wouldn’t matter to those that want the best and most efficient. They would eek out those extra GRs anyway.
The only way around it would be for Blizz to purposely design a meta system where you would have more than one meta group. This would be because they would have redesigned the skills where you get really great synergy from each others skills. That way all classes could play the meta if they wanted to.
Again this thread was suppose to be about both DHs and necros. But it has been more about the DHs than necros.
Look if we get a few really high quality patches of loving that puts us in the limelight then I am sure that the problems won’t be as bad as they are right not. That is why quality will prove to be better than quantity. Because quantity without quality is just a token attempt at trying to make good changes to help the class.
Even though Elemental Arrow and Chakram are weaker but the UE set supports them. All that is needed is to buff the legendaries that support them and maybe make some new legendary powers that would buff them further.
Look if DHs get a few really good quality patches that address the issues with the class then players won’t mind if other classes actually have had more changes in previous patches.
I am sure that quality does mean something to you otherwise you wouldn’t have created this thread.
But if the attempted adjustments are just mere token efforts then they shouldn’t have put them in at all. Adjustments should be done in order to handle the issues that the players are having with the class.
I am sure that a bunch of token attempts at handling the issues is not what will be acceptable to the majority. Sure to you it might be acceptable but not to the majority.
Without cooldowns you just dance on the keyboard till you win the fight. Cooldowns get you to plan, think about what you are doing. Time the use of your skills to get the most out of them. Some defensive skills you might say okay if I pop my defensive cooldown now I won’t have it later on when it might matter more.
Plus cooldowns can lead to having some really powerful abilities that would take a huge chunk of resources. Take Big Bad Vodoo at a 2 minute cooldown. Just think of the mana cost without a cooldown. It might be as much as 50-80% of mana.
Further it was said in threads concerning cooldowns. What is the difference if you have to wait to use the skill or wait to get the resources to use the skill. If the time is the same then resources drained to regenerated act as a cooldown anyway.
I am pretty sure that the majority during the days of Vanilla D3 that players knew that D3 wasn’t a high quality game. I don’t think there was any disagreement from the community on that subject. It took RoS to make the game good, not great. Hence the reason for D3’s second expansion getting scrapped.
If Blizz could make a true solo leader boards where the only way to get on them is to play entirely solo. If you team with that character at all then you cannot place on the solo only leader boards. But there is probably a tech issue that would prevent it.
What role has crusaders played in the meta since season four. If they have had more of a role then go ahead and enlighten us. But if not then they are just as screwed as DH. So the thread should be DH and Crusaders instead of Necros. That is if you go by the meta only.
Its about both. The Last patch gave Monk, Crusader new sets, and Barbarians many adjustments. Then in this patch they gave Wizards, WD’s and Barbs their new sets with more adjustments.
That is the point of the thread. Who got left out? That is the DH and Necro and based on the amount of patches that each character received changes on Necro is the worst, with DH right next to them. I don’t play the necro much so I can’t argue much about them outside of them being screwed right along with us.
If blizzard wanted it to be fair and not sour the community they could have simply given everyone some small adjustments with each patch, or not have given barbarians the extra modifications in the last patch and instead they should have waiting their turn until there set is released just like the rest of us. So if we have to wait for another patch for our set then we should get the same barbarian treatment that they got in patch 2.6.7 and give DH’s and Necro’s some changes.
If sets already released need more adjustments you’d agree that blizzard should adjust them right, well by the other logic of us having to wait our turn means that any set currently made that needs adjustment should have to wait until after the patch that everyone finally has their sets.
Quality is good and nice in practice, but we all know that the hardest part is getting blizzard to change anything, let alone getting them to actually create quality changes. Its not until the last year that we started seeing some slightly better changes. I remember when firebirds went through so many changes and look at what happened to it. They never fixed it and instead gave up on it. Had they given more “quantity” chances at fixing it, the set might actually be fixed by now, or at the very least they are still trying. Its when you get Zero changes where you feel the short end of the stick. A small gesture is better than nothing, a cracker is better than not eating at all.
Cooldowns were never in ARPG games or apart of the prior diablo’s so that is again a subjective “Quality” feature that you like, whereas, most of us didn’t. We all expected a similar game compared to D2 and instead what we got was entirely different. Don’t get me wrong, D3 is fun now and much better but the “Quality” of D3 is nothing like the “quality” of D2 and it never will be for me and the millions of others who decided to never buy ROS. This is why i said “quality” is very subjective and impossible to please. It’s better to attempt change, vs entirely ignoring a class because its too hard to fix. Most of the time quality builds are created on accident anyways by the developers simply adjusting numbers which allows the players to theory craft into builds they never intended. This actually happens more than people think.
I don’t know that much about necro, so only offering my thoughts on DH, which I do know very well.
True, Cru hasn’t had much role in the meta too, but cru builds have been at least 10 GR higher than DH in solo pushes.
They are certain undeniable facts. Monk and barbs have been part of the 4 man meta for a very long time. Necromancers have been part of the meta for almost all season/eras since their introduction. DHs have largely been neglected in terms of the 4 man meta.
I realize that members of monk and barb classes may not want to play zDPS, but at least these classes have the option to be part of the meta if they so choose.
The idea that barbs were the weakest class for years has been shown to be absolutely false. Moreover, the theorycrafting of some individuals that certain patches do not yield any items of value to barbs has also been shown to be untrue when one inspects the leaderboard.
I was surprised when the balance blog post was made on several levels. The two weakest classes according to Blizzard received nothing this patch.
Necros did get something a nerf to their thorns build. 
Here we go again.
Did you read before mumbling?
There is a difference in the topic you created in that comment and what the entire debate was about here.
Learn the difference instead of mumbling.
And btw. your socalled table spamming was proved wrong.
So instead of derailing more subjects, do read.
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