It’s still enough sustenance to live.
Yes, the thing about GRs is that because they are timed (worst idea ever in my opinion, even though I like speerunning and competing for lowest times), they streamlined the maps considerably compared to regular rifts and especially the regular campaign maps. Linearity vs complexity in level design has always been a subject of debate in many game genres (I remember the biggest turn off for many people in Final Fantasy XIII was the fact that the game was basically a big corridor, although some people think that’s fine in a story driven game), however, I feel like in a dungeon crawler like Diablo, it’s fundamental. I love the maze-like maps of D1, D2 feels a little bit more streamlined but it’s still great. I agree that D3 could do better.
The only thing I don’t like in PoE is how fast people can clear the endgame stuff. I know you need a very powerful character to do that, but some of the clear speeds are silly. Let me at least look at what I’m killing lol
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If i give you a meal every 8 hours or every 8 minutes which would be more healthy
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Yet moving back and forth the same path without that being your “unforced” decision leaves a bad taste.
Imagine you are in the center of a map with 8 tunnels around you, 7 of which are dead ends… Would you enjoy it? Arcane Sanctuary is one of the most hated zones in D2 for a reason, and it has only 4 paths.
Dead ends aren’t productive game design.
It’s a matter of balance, not a matter of 100% one side or 100% the other side.
Arcane Sanctum is way too much in the all or nothing category of mazes, with you having to do 1 run, then if you aren’t lucky, come back (either through the sanctum or through TP) and redo a run. Up to 4 times total.
PoE tends to be pretty ok on that front. It is slightly labyrinthine, so you do have to explore, but a decent amount of clues help you know whether you’re on the right track or not, like a bridge that always has certain elements on one side of it, and others on the other side, or a general layout that doesn’t have you backtrack even if you aren’t going in the right direction, etc… (And let’s be clear, I despise what GGG has made with the game, I am simply willing to give credit where it’s due.)
Globally, I’d probably appreciate some improvement on Grim Dawn for the overworld, and some improvement on PoE for every other layout. Improve on what’s existing, and avoid the trappings that have been highlighted by previous installments.
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Compared to Diablo 3? Yes, definitely.
Gameplay is more than constant combat. Exploration is gameplay.
I bet you will enjoy the meal every 8 hour more, after a while.
Indeed.
Yeah. No need to reinvent gaming. Learn from what others did well.
(I know, people wont agree what was done well. Not the point)
Considering a decent amount of posts in this thread was spend on talking about the benefits of multiple paths leading to the same end, and having multiple exists from a dungeon level… no, you can always exaggerate something into being bad.
You could have those 8 paths all lead to a viable exit. But along each patch, you have dead ends too.
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People hate Arcane Sanctum? It’s literally my favorite map in the game 
There was a dungeon in Diablo 2, it had about four different exits to the second level. I agree that is a good idea. It lets you either press on to the objective, or explore more without having to travel so far back to the level exit.
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But it’s not action.
so?
arent we talking about theres more about a game than action?
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Yes, of course. Maps with dead ends need to go away. It’s bad design.
We are strictly discussing the layout here.
Going back and forth due to dead ends isn’t exploration however.
Exploration: the action of exploring an unfamiliar area
“More” doesn’t have to include bad gameplay mechanics.
Going down the dead end the first time certainly is exploration. Going back again is the natural consequence of such exploration. Moving toward the next unexplored area.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Just make sure exploration is, on average, rewarding.
Great. So it directly is action ^^
what are you talking about?
The structure of the zones in D3 is really very bad.
It always seems like the tunmel to get through, not as an actual experience to explore something and also reach limits.
In D2, on the other hand, the world always seemed like a real open world that still had its limits. In D3, I never really felt like I was traveling through a real world, it just felt like I was being thrown into a scenario that I was playing down.
Now that they’ve gone open world in D4, with the map system of the dungeons involved, a lot of the whole structure changes.
For example, it would be very bad if everything just kind of scaled and you didn’t have any hooks and loopholes at all.
That would absolutely not serve the RPG at all and become very monotonous.
It needs borders in such an open world, in order to protect secrets and to be able to build up sensibly at all.
Mobs that don’t scale, or at most only a little bit. Zones that are low, zones that are high, zones that demand more ambition to match the background, zones that are more used by the player to chill but are still fun, zones that are difficult to access, zones that have a wide and open inviting atmosphere, etc.
With Open World, Blizz has set itself a difficult task. It will not be very convincing if in a finished world, suddenly a new zone grows. If the world stands, you also have to handle it carefully and perhaps protect areas for add ons. But not only because you just clumsily provide it with a big gate with inscription NO ACCESS, but cleverly with playful elements makes it impossible to enter the map for a long time. E.g. by an evil barrier that sucks the life out of you, or a fog that gets so dense that you eventually fall off the cliff you didn’t see. Or a riddle that you can not solve yet, a magic seal to which the seal is missing, an island in the sea to which there is no transport, only legends are told, or underground in an old crypt complex, to a forgotten city an occult entrance exists, protected by a portal that was probably not activated for a long time … only why? We don’t know yet, etc…
If something like that is prepared excitingly at the same time, then of course the world seems even more binding and has its secrets that are always on your mind so now and then.
The map structure of PoE was better yes. Only I always dislike when you just always everything in the much too fast pace passes and not a little longer connects with zones and takes them so more and thus feels more involved in the world.
One of the problems today with the high speed and the constant travel through the area. Annoying a little…
I mean maps with dead ends in aRPGs is as bad design as it can be. I have no idea why I have to explain this to all of you like you are 7 years old.
hmmm
let me think about it
i didnt really join the discussion about that specific topic yet
what exactly makes it bad?
more time investment in killing mobs and exploring maps instead of just rushing through to the final boss?
Only if you’ve abandoned all pretense of being an RPG and turned your game into a speed run. Maybe maps should be ovals with high banked turns and a few easily navigated road courses thrown in for flavor.
Dead ends should not only exist they should be populated by cool encounters.
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As already pointed above there’s no such thing as exploring familiar area. You explore the unknown.
Rushing has also nothing to do with dead ends. You have both in D3 present.
What makes dead ends bad is that the gameplay suffers from these since there isn’t anything special about these like is the case in classic RPGs, in which dead ends are coupled with quest progression.
As already given an example above with Arcane Sanctuary in D2 - players don’t like it. The time investment the player makes in the game has to bring satisfaction and enjoyment. Dead ends in maps constitute the opposite.
Probably because it is nonsense? 
To be fair, Skelos isn’t pretending to want an RPG anymore, since he also want to remove items, and builds, and let an AI play the game for us while we watch 
Hence why you have chests, mini bosses, events etc. at some of those dead ends.
You can have these in non dead ends too.
Maps procedural generation in aRPGs is a fundamental aspect. D4 until now hasn’t shown a progress in this direction 20 years after D2.
Players want a next gen Diablo game, not another D3 with more dead ends and new errors 37.