Long Long time Diablo Fan here & First time POE player (played first on the most resent League Reset). I’m sure its been said many times before but POE to me feels like what Diablo 3 should have been. Minus all that any class can be any build/skill system stuff.
Anyways, this Topic is about my most favorite part of POE, the entire freaking map structure of every act. I have never really gotten lost in a Diablo 3 map. And running around those dark shadowy mazes of POE layouts really made me feel like I was back in Diablo 2 again!
Not sure if this has been talked about recently, but i fear for Diablo 4 map layouts and want to draw attention to the most essential part of a ARPG for me, the board, Diablo 3 failed so hard in the map department, there are so many maps that feel like a railroad track, even the newer open maps are just one big open square? I cant even remember getting lost in a D3 Map.
From some D4 gameplay footage I fear they are headed down that same one track layout.
PLEASE Give us Massive sized dungeons, that don’t have just ONE WAY to get to exit.
PLEASE give us back light radius and the need for it.
PLEASE give us that Modern Diablo we all dreamed of!!!
Let me Know your thoughts, thanks
ps. also Javazon in D4 would be great, and more monster density in D2r would be a nice treat too. Thats all
The modern Diablo we all dreamed about eh? Assuming you’ve lurked and been around a while, you should know there is no consensus on what “we” all want. There are 4 main camps, those that want D4 to be like D2, those that want D4 to be like D3, those that want D4 to be it’s own thing, and those that want D4 to take good bits from previous Diablo and other ARPG games and refine them.
If course there is some over laps with groups, but there is no collective “we” that you speak for.
Rant aside, unless someone can point me at something different, D2 maps were big squares with specific exits to the next level or new maps, same with PoE(unless you mean endgame maps). GGG showed off their map creation system at a GDC and it’s basically a big randomized square. Exits to other locations are basically at the same areas every time.
I mean there are plenty of D3 maps that are winding with dead ends no where near the exit points. But in regards to D4 it’s a shared world, inter connected with no separation so they will all be open and static. Think of an MMO. In all honestly, I’d rather have well thought out maps as opposed to randomness. Dungeons may be random, but again, I’d rather they be well though out and static. Especially with the keys. Could get quite frustrating trying to figure out a key and a new layout every time.
Hey thanks for the reply, and sorry for speaking for the “WE”, lol naturally I just assumed everyone wanted what I want, how selfish and silly of me. I have stayed away from the forums and only really chat in game Diablo 2. I guess that’s the “We” I was referring too.
I’m gonna see if I can attach some Pictures of the D3 maps I’m talking about, I just ran a grift, and it was 3 maps/levels, all straight lines.
I suppose I didn’t mean what I said about the open square D3 maps, those are enjoyable lul, I got lost in my dislike of the corridor maps.
I agree with you, and its probably true most ARPG maps are big squares with specific exits randomly generated based off a “set”, right. There’s a general sense of direction based on the way you enter of where you should head. I just ran through 10 acts in POE, although I was brand new, I have never gotten so lost in a game. Not since Diablo 2.
That’s my point, So many of the D3 maps feel like a long fancy corridor with Static Exits at Point A, I just have to go forward. Like one very small Frigid Highlands. Forward into a wall and then make a perfect 90 degree turn. Sewers Forest etc, Usually Forward then sharp turn. It’s “simple” and I think it really hurt Diablo 3.
I’m gonna check out that GDC video thanks for the mention.
GRs were changed to be more direct/linear if you will. Considering they are a timed based thingy and open sprawling maps with dead ends and back tracking tend to hinder progression in them. I get it though and know exactly what you mean.
Well let me educate you on the general consensus in the Diablo community - those of us who want D4 to succeed anyway:
The opinion of D2 diehards is the tiny irrelevant minority and it’s generally accepted that copying D2 too much is only setting up D4 to fail. D2 is so 20 years ago. If ya’ll love it so much, stick with D2R and leave D4 alone to go into the future.
On the topic of POE maps - their map system sucks. Whoever decided that the map resetting after 5-10 minutes and forcing you to clear it all over again should be fired. The last thing D4 should have is anything copied/pasted from POE. Their devs are tragic one-trick plagiarizing ponies & desperate for money, which is why they cater to the tiniest whims of the most clueless players - which is why POE sucks so much.
Again, not mechanics, simply design, the layouts, the ground work.
I see I opened the can of worms of POE Vs. Diablo VS. 2 VS. 3, but I was really trying to only specifically talk about the map designs. I’d Love to talk about the opinions of D2 diehards in another thread.
-I think 90% of Diablo 3 maps are beyond linear.
-I feel POE map layouts (not mechanics/instances) are way more similar to Diablo 2 than Vs. Diablo 3,
Do you agree?
On average, yeah, PoE map design is better than D3s. Dungeons are often more of maze, open areas can be a bit more varied.
Agreed.
No thanks.
I am fine with very dark dungeons sometimes. But having an affix to counter it, that just seems pointless. Let the dark dungeons be dark, without a counter. Or at least without a gear affix counter. There could be gameplay involved. Like the ability to light torches as you progress into a dark dungeon etc.
PoE Delves also do some interesting stuff there.
The lower monster density in D2 is one of the areas where it is much much better than D3 and PoE. I hope we return to a significantly lower monster density in D4.
Make each enemy a challenge on its own. Dont fill up the screen with monsters which we then AoE down in a second.
That definitely is my group.
It isnt the dead ends D3 is missing (although there should be more of them!), it is more the ‘multiple paths to the same place’. That is nearly non-existent in D3.
One thing nearly no A-RPGs have done, afaik, is multiple paths between different layers of a map/dungeon. That would be pretty cool to see.
Like,if you leave lvl 1 through exit A you end up in a different place in lvl 2 than if you use exit B.
You might even have areas of lvl 2 which can only be reached by using different exists on lvl 1.
Unless I’ve missed something, I haven’t seen many multiple paths leading to the same place in ARPGs(admittedly I have no experience with PoE endgame maps). More often you have an area with a few branching directions with only one leading to an exit. Sometimes you have thise branching paths connect backup, but if anyone has something concrete to show me I’d like to see. Maybe I’m missing something or not really understanding.
A more sprawling map here from PoE. Multiple doors and paths to the same places.
Or from D2
A Grim Dawn map (I know, not a dungeon, but also not a wide open area)
Grim Dawn actually does a little bit with multiple entrances/exits. Like you can go through a dungeon to go to X, or go through an overworld area. It isn’t much though.
In Diablo 3, usually the most you can hope for is small corridors forming something resembling a square.
Map Layout sounds like Shooter but Roguelike more like Diablo. Zones should be massive part of Diablo. Its big part of the game to head to the zones from towns etc. Its kinda hard to give them ideas if you dont know if they are technically possible.
Btw one reason I keep suggesting Music. It should make the “feel of rushing to the zones” more exciting.
Yeah, Diablo is ultimately Town versus Zones kind of game. Looking forward to what Blizz comes up.
“One thing nearly no A-RPGs have done, afaik, is multiple paths between different layers of a map/dungeon. That would be pretty cool to see. Like,if you leave lvl 1 through exit A you end up in a different place in lvl 2 than if you use exit B. You might even have areas of lvl 2 which can only be reached by using different exists on lvl 1.”
As D4 is currently designed, it appears clear that we will get a labyrinthine over-world, but with a static map that doesn’t change (since it’s an open-world MMORPG-ish game).
The question is what the dungeons will be like, and that is very unclear at the moment.
I’d suggest going to poelab (sorry, can’t put links) to check an uber labyrinth layout to see for yourself. It’s not very impressive, honestly.
Honestly, I’d say that PoE has the kind of layout variety that I would expect from an ARPG. D2 is a lesser version of that, though decent. D3, though, has a way of generating its layouts that exacerbates the feeling of sameness that comes from its areas. It’s not so much that its layouts are fundamentally different from D2’s, but rather that it manages to exacerbate the feeling of how unnaturally wide, single-passagy or undiverse a lot of the layouts are.
PS :
I suspect that part of the issue lies in the fact that a lot of its passages look like corridors or pathways, but are very wide, exacerbating the feeling of being on tracks.
PPS :
An absurd part of the issue is that some of the places least likely to be mazes (the insides of the act 3 fortifications) are the most maze-like areas (if not the only ones, I fail to recall other places that felt labyrinthine).
That is true. Although fairly limited connections.
They are very much a side thing too in PoE. Was thinking of having it general game world/dungeons/maps.
lul, I got lost in my dislike of the corridor maps.
