Yes, Goethe, one of the greatest minds of europe was known for his naivity. Thanks for pointing that out.
He picked their side in full knowledge of what was done (remember: rape and death threats). That takes alooot of denial (or agreement). And yes, that is what he needs to measure himself with.
“the company you keep”
It might have been years ago, but it is not unrelated and he seems to hold a very similar stance on the subjects nowadays, as proven by the provided link.
So did you read the first paragraph of the wiki page or not? Because it still seems that you did not.
And they should not have to. If someone is being bullied, they should be allowed to speak out against it without fear.
It all comes down to taking the perspective of a victim and how they feel. If everybody is fine, then there is no problem, but not everybody is treated the way things should be. And if they speak up, they should be heard. The problem gets only worse with people (like you in this particular case) trying to shut them down, because they want to maintain their untainted gaming atmosphere, because they are lucky to never have suffered from that kind of bullying or are in denial about it.
A Civilization is Measured by How It Treats Its Weakest Members
Gaming culture is also a society that should apply these standards to itself.
You mean the vibe of citing facts?
And what would that be? Enlighten me, because i do not know that story.
no problem, he also just was a child of his time…i pointed out that
back then almost all ppl had huge restrictions on travelling and to information so it was mostly true for his time
also your reasoning is that he was on the same side as ppl he did’t know or agreed with ( on this threats) on another topic, that is like 10 years ago and now that he has an opinion on another topic you assume he isn’t credible because of it.
that’s like judging every amercian that voted biden not to be credible for the future if he would decide to start a war. like same side once - too bad. that’s neither logical nor fair!
aaalso there is a game with ugly character models waiting to be discussed
And he left alot of art and wisdom that still has great relevance today.
Such as:
literature
poetry
nature science
visual arts
and many more.
So without any doubt, he was one of the most productive and acknowledged minds of his time.
And one of his most famous quotes is the one i quoted. Timeless, applicable to everything, because the core part of it means that you should always uphold your principles.
Something that seems to be an aweful lot difficult to some. It was back then (which is why is said it) and it is now (which is why i quoted it).
Not exactly a good point to point things out, when you have an actual piece of timeless wisdom at hand.
Keep trying.
What does travelling and the speed of information have to do with chosing who you associate with based on principles? Nothing! You seem to have missed the essence of the quote or just searching for a lazy excuse.
He knew they arguments, their methods, their stance and he happily sided with them.
There are a million ways to stand up for your arguments, but jumping onto the bandwaggon is what associating with the cargo on said bandwaggon is.
If he did care to make his stance separate from the gamergate people, he could have stated so.
Instead he was (according to MissCheetah) a “proud gamergater”. That is hardly a separate stance. He was happy to associate with them. And he is responsible for aligning with them.
Not really. Its like judging every american who voted for biden and who continues to support him after the war has started. In this case it is even worse, because they would even double down on their support by stating that they enjoy the war.
Your argument is neither logical or fair. as most of your arguments lately seem to be, because you are - i am growing to like that trope - stretching the bow until it snaps.
Sure. Not ugly though, matter of subjective taste, you know the jist.
So where were we? Oh right, i was asking on whether you had a source for the claim that the “developers and designers spoke up against the new models”. Turns out you still dont have any.
Wanna try again?
you didn’t ask me about that because i don’t give a crap about gamergate, maybe it was elobacarcen. i do however give somethings about ppl getting hastly judged out of lazyness and ideology and virtue signalling!
you are who you are because of the “bubble” you have available. your upbringing, education, friends, relationships don’t make you who you are when your character has enough depth. And your friends can have totally different viewpoints and lifestyles than you and still be your friends
you can’t say who i am because of the ppl around me because unlike you i’m really an individual. i’m unlike my friends /family because opinions/religion/tradition/race are no factor. so then you would assume i’m liberal but f*** that everything case by case.
my problem is that they changed it in the first place, it’s no representation of the original, and the reason for it is not acceptable. also there are a lot of ppl that find it ugly not only me…and if you prefer a 65 year old boxing hag to a 25 year old battle-barbie i just question your taste
Good to know.
So where is that source then? Btw it was asked before the gamergate thing came up.
The problem was that the quoted “source” had a track record related to gamergate and thus is not exactly the ideal source you should be looking for.
It would be the same as me listing some well-known feminist as a source for D2 models. We all know how you (not you specifically, but your side of the argument) would react to that.
If you want to drive an argument home, make your best point, not your worst. And i sincerly hope that it was not your best point.
Yet if you have such a strong character, you can maybe take a different stance than your “friends”. I think you are being held up by the word “friends” here. The point is that on certain things of significance, you should be able to distance yourself from your friends or associates. If you are not able to do that, you have to live with the fact that others will count you in on their agenda. Because you are giving them support.
The quote approaches it more from the point of personal principle, but since this point does not seem to reach any endpoint with you, take my more practical example.
Yes, and we heard you back in february. Remember? The devs acknowledged to revisit the topic based on your feedback.
What new things do you have to bring to the table?
Now you are putting words into my mouth.
It gets a bit tiresome, but again:
In my view, she does not look 65 years old, not like a hag, has absolutely no physical relation to boxing and instead is a rather good fit for the amazon theme (in my view, in case you forgot how i started the sentence).
And yeah, i prefer a more fleshed out character over a generic “battle-barbie”. Barbies are a childs toy. And of some men of a certain caliber. If you really want to play with a barbie, they go for little money in the toy store.
By all means, people should speak out if they are being bullied.
Only, people who weren’t the bullies shouldn’t have to take the blame and pay the price.
That’s why when discussing games, It would be nice if people leave their bad experiences at the door and judge things for what they are.
Yeah, a lot of what I’ve seen in recent years is people assuming the role of a victim and ruining things for a whole bunch of others, that have nothing to do with the “victim’s” suffering, be it real or perceived.
That sounds all good and well in theory… only, again, in recent years it has reached intolerable levels of unreasonableness.
A regular person can’t enjoy a piece of entertainment, without all manned of BS shoved in it to sooth the “weakest members” and “the victims”.
Anyone gets offended by anyone and anything. How are things judged by?
Not based on facts and specifics, I can tell you that much… but rather on sweeping generalizations about perceived power (or lack there of such) and status… and especially in the west, based on race, gender, sexual orientation and whatnot… and it all originates from what I already described are failed, divisive and detrimental ideologies or now… perceived slights the supposedly weakest members of society experienced… or whomever claimed that role, anyways…
And because of that, art people enjoyed should be replaced. Diablo fans should all make way for the… whomever is offended by the appearance of the Amazon, supposedly weakest member of society, claiming victim status… and so on.
By following that logic, regular people, regular fans will never get to enjoy anything… ever, because there will always be this group, or that person shrouding themselves in victim status and ruining the fun for everyone else.
D2 Remaster should have been primarily for the D2 fans… but nah, it’s for the weakest members of society first! It’s for the victims of… I don’t know, not having the same body type as the Amazon or whatever other real or perceived slight they experienced.
It’s for everyone, but the actual Diablo players. They come last.
Like I said… intolerable levels of unreasonableness…
And we live in a society, where honor, truth, intellectual honesty and experiencing art for what it is… all those are now a distant memory.
And according to you, this is the right state of things… that those things belong back in the 90s.
Now things should be censored and curated in order to suit the weakest members…
I wonder… why am I not considered one of the weakest members of the gaming society? Why shouldn’t things be tailored to me and bent to my will? Why am I not the victim? How am I represented?
All of these and more are questions, that are now going though my mind…
And I guess the answer is, that everyone has his own sad, sob story. Those who bring it up get perceived as “the victim”, “the weakest member of society”, and those who have the good nerve to keep it to themselves and/or share it with only select few… those are automatically the “strong members of society”, so nobody should care about them…
Nice to have agreement here.
Now let’s assume that calling a woman who does not look as you like it “ungodly ugly”. Would you consider that bullying?
Good. And while we are at it, let us not give them new bad experiences while playing as well. Like bullying.
So let me ask you. How many times in this thread have you already assumed the role of the victim? Just from the top of your head. Give me a rough number.
And that is how they feel for the past decades if not centuries where there was no “intolerable level of unreasonableness”. You are in remotely the same perspective for just a couple of years now. Do you understand the problem now?
Currently you are the one being offended by the new models. And you are in turn offending others by the measures you set up for female video game characters - which is arguably still based in lore - but more importantly by the measures you apply to those who should not be placed in your video games. Because that is how you are shutting out a big part of the community and you are not exactly shy to offend them.
Yes, the white, straight male has always struggled.
Maybe you should pick up a history book, mate.
You sure like to be dramatic about this. As stated so many times above already… she is just a more interesting character. Not just a blant generic blond. Maybe they could have fleshed out the original artwork in a similar way, but they chose to go a different path. And it was a good idea. It was a brave step and it was worth the outcome. Just from a practical making the art perspective.
No need to bring the victim status into it yet. And btw, you are again assuming the victim status on this.
Well, by that logic they have for 20 years. They also still have 1-6 other classes depending on how you count. So what is the problem? Is your slice of the pie not big enough?
Same gameplay, same items, better servers, better graphics, fair pricing model, survey over survey to not piss up the original playerbase. And that is what the devs get back from you.
You are just being ungrateful. Honestly.
And btw, you are again in the victim mode.
Well, it clearly is not, there is no disabled character, no blind character, no deaf character, no truely old character, no gay character (apart from possibly griswold), but it is a step into the right direction.
Are you still sitting comfortably on your chair? Good, because i was just exagerrating a bit. As did you btw. So we are even.
Apart from getting what they wished for after 20 years.
And another victim role part.
And again the victim.
Yes, the world is truly about to end now. Good bye, cruel world!
Again you are acting as the victim.
Well, it wouldnt hurt. Because they are the weakest members they deserve some support. That is what being social is about.
Yes, exactly. Tell me why you are the weakest member of gaming society. Tell me. What in the past 40 years of gaming has not been exactly catered by for you?
Well, you do not show good nerve and you are constantly falling back into the victim mode. I would welcome you actually showing the nerve and starting to argue. But it is always “oh no, they are stealing my game away from me”.
I already gave you lore, original concept, taste. I gave you that you have one vote. One vote each.
And i took that we have one vote each. And a different taste.
The devs gave you the acknowledgement to look into the case.
What more do you want?
original concept? it’s maybe dark, but not bloody and graphic enough compared to the original. also the characters aren’t the fantasy, stylized ppl from another world, they are some generic checkboxes to virtue signal.
we would like to hear if something happens about the models in the future, because acknowledging it means nothing nowadays.
also there is no time before release really so there’s a little reason to be angry
ah, judging individual ppl by their race, funny how that is ok if it fits your agenda. just sad that it has nothing to do with the hardship individual ppl have to endure.
yes, the problem comes from ppl with your mindset, that are ok creating problems for other ppl if it fits their agenda. be careful, that is like you approve being racist against white ppl just because it was reversed in the past…you activly beeing the bad guy here
Where did i judge? It is a historical fact. Again: try the history book. It is good.
That is not my mindset. Your argument falls apart the second you spend a thought on it.
And just to add to it. it is again assuming the victim role. Exactly what EbolaCarcen has said before is the problem: people falsely claiming the victim role. Do not do it. Find proper arguments.
There certainly have been intolerable levels of unreasonableness throughout the entire human history, even today.
Only I am not the perpetrator of said unreasonableness.
Only video games are usually a safe place, a form of escapism from whatever unreasonableness people put up with daily.
Only no, no living person has experienced something for “centuries”, as there are very few people who live longer than 100 years.
Yes… by the new models. What were the reasons for those new models again? Because the old one were not “diverse”, “realistic” and “respectful” enough?
Or maybe you should?
How is she more interesting?
For all you know, all the rogue corpses you find in Act 1 are that of disabled, blind and deaf rogues, that were easy pickings for the demonic forces.
Oh, you mean playable character? My character is already deaf when I turn off the in-game sound. Wanna play a blind character? Turn off the monitor!
Wanna play a disabled character? Log into D3 and play the weekly challenge mod every week with the dumbest build imaginable!
Those are things you can roleplay all you want.
Overwatch is that way, good sir =>
And I find it funny how the announcements, that this or that character is gay always came after some scandal or controversy as a little more than diversion than anything else.
No, I’m actually laughing in my chair, but thanks for asking. You have truly made my night
Considering, that I only like select, few games, despite having played over a hundred titles… no, most things are not for me.
Why should everybody else be the victim? Why can’t I be the victim?
LoL… you gave me nothing.
You refused to concede points I was clearly right on. You and others in this thread acted disgustingly prior to the mods interfering with implied or straight up insults and accusations.
You don’t give a crap about the lore, the art, inspirations for said art, the studio, the history between Blizzard North and Blizzard South and anything I brought up. To you, those things belong “back in the 90s”.
For you it’s about “representation”, “gay, disabled characters”, “respectful and realistic” depictions of women… as to how the original depiction of the Amazon is unrealistic and/or disrespectful is quite frankly beyond me, but the moment I speculated I got called sexist…
again… and a bully…
I highly doubt anything would come from that, likely because the decision is already made… probably on a level above that of the devs anyways…
I guess to be allowed to discuss the matter further, regardless of outcome? Kinda like what you’re doing.
Hi there, Sinured.
You have an interesting take, so I hope you would allow me to make this connection or… analogy.
I’ve seen the exact same mind in video games. If a character, a race or a class is overpowered, it eventually gets nerfed.
However, there are certainly players, who are in no way concerned with true balance.
Instead, they are concerned with what I would call revanchism.
They demand, that said race, character or class gets nerfed to the ground to the point it’s unplayable… and for it to stay that way for a while as a form of punishment…
And that’s what they get from companies and corporations… revanchism in one form or another.
True Balance be damned.
And Blizzard, even in game balancing are notorious for what I would call PR nerfs. Not to bring something back in line with the rest the things, so it remains a viable option. Nah, they nerf something to the point they destroy or erase it.
Food for thought…
2:42 AM here, so I’ll retire for the night. Have a good one!
When you judge others based on their appeareance you are.
Yes, but for everybody. And you are actively trying to shut people out.
I never spoke about individuals, but about the societies in general. You seem to have a hard time with abstraction, should we maybe focus back on the game?
They are new by definition. Because there were no 3d models before. That is the reason for having new models.
Which part? Or are you just trying to retort with no actual substance?
Scroll up. I wrote it already. Its getting boring having to repeat everything 20 times for you.
Yes, you clearly do not see the argument and think it is all a big joke. Very mature.
Oh really? How many examples of gay characters do you have? Since you are using the word “always”, there seems to be plenty cases.
And what was the scandal again? Enlighten me.
What does that have to do with anything?
Because you are not. Remember, you are the one sitting in his chair laughing. From what i know about bully-victim situations, it is usually the bully who is laughing.
Also it is not a game where you are taking turns. The problem with bullying is that it is usually the same people being bullies over and over again.
Not quite. I am a fan of blizzard north from the very first moment. I have followed every of their games and played them to great avail. I love their art and their gameplay vision. But that does not make me a blind dogmatic follower. It does not prevent me from learning new stuff. And you bringing that lazy argument over and over does not make it any better.
We all are here because we are fans of diablo. Get that into your head already. It is really, really annoying to constantly having to read that ridiculous claim.
I maintain that i never insulted you. You are again playing the victim card, yet you are the one sluring insults out.
Nobody expects you to concede your points. But you should put them in perspective. You are one person, not the majority. You are one fan amongst many (including us) and everytime i provided you a link or a number, you have ignored it. So you are refusing to learn more.
I literally marked it as a planned overexagerration, now you claim it is my argument. Top marks for reading comprehension.
Which does not make it any more respectful.
Because calling women or female characters names based on their appearance is sexist and being a bully.
Why do we even have to debate this? Are you having a different dictionary or something?
Bullying is a subcategory of aggressive behavior characterized by the following three criteria: (1) hostile intent, (2) imbalance of power, and (3) repetition over a period of time.
aggressive: you call them hags, ungodly, ugly and many more words. All can be considered aggressive choices (as opposed to e.g. “old”)
you perceive yourself as the majority and act as a gatekeeper to the community
repeated: you can count yourself, i will leave a checkmark here
Regarding 2:
One essential prerequisite is the perception (by the bully or by others) of an imbalance of physical or social power.
So much for semantics. I find you guilty in all 3 counts of being a bully. You can check them yourself.
So why are you still posting?
Why have you not refunded? What is your goal? I do not get it.
You are posting for ~3 weeks now. And you are saying that you do not even expect them to change anything? Are you insane?
I’d love to discuss with you. But for a discussion you need to acknowledge the other side. So far i have been called many things by you, but not an equal partner in a discussion. Let’s start with that, then we can discuss. I tried a couple of times, even reaching you a hand at the very start, you did not want it.
Your comparison of racism with balancing in a video game shows that you have literally no idea what racism is.
Nobody in their right mind who has endured racism would make that comparison. It is far too much of an important topic to be mashed up like that.
In a video game, you have the choice to play a different character. In real life you do not!
I asked you before to pick up a history book. Since you refuse to do that, go to your mother or grandmother. Ask them when they were allowed to vote and what it meant for them. Then you get an idea of what things that you think are self-evident are not so self-evident to others because of social injustice.
Jay was a donkey’s behind in that instance. I like Dave. I am glad the team talked him out of a turn based RPG and into an ARPG. That was revolutionary for the time. He is a good person who has gone on to make some interesting games. Nothing that was quite as big as D2. I wish him well and It Lurks Below seems to be a great little niche game. He is someone I would love to chat with someday.
I have respect for everyone (that I have knowledge of), who has worked for Blizz and eventually moved on. Excited to see what most do.
With one exception. I made the mistake of following him on Twitter thinking, naively, that he was an interesting person I could learn from. I was wrong. Very wrong.
Yes - and announced it on Twitter that he was full GG. But that was something I found out much later when I did research to try to explain some confusing statements I saw. Then I read a bit more - the trail of disaster in new companies, the bus, the lies, the attention screeds, etc. He has a select audience and they love belly buttons just like him. Makes me want to comment about his gaze, but he really means bare bellies.
There are good arguments for art critique, citing him is the opposite of helpful though. It undermines anything valid someone might want to do.
P.S. I am behind on the thread because, fireworks, family, friends, and a new WoW patch so likely did not address everyone. Just a few tiny things.
That’s the problem with your world view. Abstractions, generalizations and very few specifics.
If me asking for the original character appearances is what prevents people from enjoying the game and is shutting them out, that means they weren’t big fans of the original game in the first place. It also means, that you’re obsessed with your idea of social justice (your words, not mine).
One of my best times playing Diablo were in D1 as a Sorcerer and in D3 as a WD. Not even once did the though of “the character does not represent me, because his race is different than mine” crossed my mind.
Completely nonsensical and irrelevant. You can have 3D models that are more or less faithful recreations of the originals. We don’t for what are… outside of the game reasons…
No. I literally meant, that you are the one, who should open a history book and learn, that not every “straight, white male” fits your idea of a “straight, white male”, that the idea of having “advantage, privilege” and things like that does not translate into reality in many parts of the world… that some white countries are not “colonizers”, but rather have been on the receiving end of slavery and subjugation, much more brutal and bloody than… let’s say black people have experienced in America…
And for all the bad, at least the descendants of black slaves at least get to live in the US, a nation which, regardless of all it’s problems, still remains a superpower to this day;
while many white folks that have had nothing to do with whatever harm different ethnic groups have endured across the world, get to live in the poorest countries of the EU…
You can get called a racist without ever mistreating a member of a different race or a minority group in your life, because you can dare to bring up arguments against changes to video games from aesthetic and gamer perspective…
But of course, that doesn’t matter, right. Whatever doesn’t align with your way of thinking doesn’t matter.
I never met my grandmothers, both passed away before I was even born.
My mother died when I was in 5th grade. Interestingly enough, that’s probably the main thing that got me into gaming.
So no, I can’t exactly sit and read a history book with them.
I’m pretty sure when my mother was born back in 1963, women already had the right to vote in my country.
According to a simple goodle search, women were allowed to vote in the US back in 1920, and women in my country were allowed to vote back in 1938… on condition that they are married, divorced or widows…
That crap gets removed in 1947. One of the few positive influences of marxism.
And yes, I find it particularly laughable, that many of the ideas for social justice or
originate from marxism. And while a broken clock can be right twice a day, many in the west are happy to profess how awesome many aspects of those ideologies are, without having lived in an ex-communist country.
Even in a state of self hatred, you maintain the feeling of western exceptionalism, believing you can be better at marxism and communism than the marxists and the communists themselves
Oh, I got the idea… from you. Every white male is the same, right.
You should dedicate your life to fighting “social injustices”, who cares if you love a video game and wanna preserve it…
And onto the question, by a fellow poster in another thread:
Meanwhile in Overwatch, a game for less mature audience than Diablo, the female characters can be sex symbols, no problem… aside from this one poster, who complained that Tracer had this victory pose with her back turned towards the camera… and that backfired spectacularly…
Why not, indeed! As I said in the previous thread, that was deleted, the so-called “older” versions of the heroes are better.
Why? Because more experienced, battle-hardened warriors are a better choice to stand up against the denizens of hell, that’s why. Not some squishy beauty queen…
I truly appreciate the concern. Even though it’s Monday, I have a day off… not sure as to why, likely compensation for overtime.
I truly do. However, I have my doubts.
I’d like to share an interesting story, and get your perspective. One of several things I do on my work place is operating a forklift.
This Friday couple of my bosses (that of my particular department and the 2nd in command of the facility itself) appear and ask me as to… why am I pushing people and vehicles with the forklift…
It sounds crazy and absurd… because it is. I told them, that nothing like that has ever occurred, encouraged them to ask people around if something like that has transpired, and also to present the person who accused me of something of such a serious nature.
I also pointed out, that event like that would be… well, eventful… a scandal would erupt, likely a verbal or a physical fight would happen and it’s not something me or people around me would not notice.
After asking people nearby, they calmed down, they laughed and left.
I’m unaware of the circumstances, but I believe this happened in another facility, on the other side of town… and my bosses were too distraught to listen to whatever message or report they received in it’s entirety, and rushed to see what the hell is… supposedly going on.
Their… eagerness to believe that nonsense is what made me worried about my job security…
I wish, I truly wish I was as privileged as some people might think I am…
Just a day on the job… a nice, out of season April Fools joke… on my expense.
