I was reviewing Wiz sets/builds and hmmm, Tal Rasha… So I tried it…
OMG! Is it really this bad? I mean, the Defense gets activated if I rotate 4 elemental skills every 8 seconds and it only doubles my Elemental Resistance or ~50% DR. LeapQuake Barbs get doubled Armor and then the set boost it further by 150% using just one skill!
DPS Wise, Tal Rasha gets only 8000%. So low! This is only T16 capable!
I am so disappointed 
Well, Tal Rasha is… outdated. It’s arguably not as outdated as Firebird had been before its last revamp but the times where Tal Rasha had a raison d’etre are long gone. The set is barely okay for niche stuff and farming, you can go higher than T16 with some builds, but the general idea behind it is dead by design. The playstyle is annoying and unrewarding, to say the least. Thinking a bit back, Tal Rasha Channeling Meteor Shower was still okay, but the Death Blow was when they “fixed” wrEtched Sigil and made it into a Twister item while nerfing Deathwish with the 1 second delay. Those two fixes essentially killed Channeling builds, rendering Tal Rasha into complete junk.
The biggest problem is that Tal Rasha does not have a working concept anymore, and the item support is poor. Keep in mind, pretty much all playstyles you could think of are likely outmatched by Legacy of Dreams, unless you actually need three legendary gems. The only point in favor of TR is that the set dungeon is a no brainer and only needs a decent AW (and not even that, if you just cube the stick or use a FB4/TR6 hybrid)…
It’s simply a fact that the whole concept of Tal Rasha, which is multi-element use, is dead by design because the there is no freaking way to play a dual element build, let alone four elements. Elements are tied to skills/runes and the main legendary items these days only buff a single skill. That’s nice and all but we need too many items to get full damage for a single skill and have no room for anything else. So right now, with Tal Rasha, we have one damage dealer and three junk skills. And that’s NOT fun.
So yeah, I can only agree - the set is disappointing and I hope they revise it rather sooner than later.
Everything Lexa said.
It’s our weakest set in terms of damage. And by far the squishest (if it gets buffed, the toughness really needs to be addressed). It doesn’t play well at low paragon (you’ll probably need to drop CoE for Unity).
But if you exclude Firebird’s it’s not that far behind. If you check the math with the set multipliers (or just check in d3planner), it’s maybe 3 GRs behind vs. elites compared to LoD/DMO Frozen Orb and about 5 GRs behind vs. trash.
That napkin math is pretty consistent with my real-world performance.
My non-season clears (3k paragon):
Firebird’s: GR140
Typhon’s’: GR130
LoD Frozen Orb: GR130
DMO Frozen Orb: GR130
Chantodo Vyr’s: GR128
Tal’s Frozen Orb: GR125
And my clears this season (2.5k paragon, with Ethereal buffs):
Firebird’s: GR142
Typhon’s: GR138
LoD Frozen Orb: GR136
DMO Frozen Orb: GR136
Vyr’s Frozen Orb: GR135
Tal’s Frozen Orb: GR133
You can see it’s way behind Firebird’s, but only 3-5 GRs behind LoD/DMO. At least the Frozen Orb variants of those builds anyway, LoD reverse Archon Twisters is a bit nutty.
I’d say the whole mechanic needs a revision, but it’s highly likely that they only tweak the set buff numbers. Anyhow, the bare minimum we must ask for is that the (4) and (6) piece stacks are merged into a single base mechanic (the one on the six piece). As a result it would be easier to keep the defensive buff alive. Regarding the figures, my gut feeling is that we need this set to provide 15%, maybe even 20% damage reduction per stack, so the total DR would be somewhere in the range between 60% and 80%.
But I would highly advise to also add built-in mobility to the set, ideally on the four piece.
Firebirds gain 80% DR for spamming Disint for a second; 20% DR per element should be just right or at the least buff Resistance by +50%~100% per element to gain that much DR AND extend the duration from the measly 8 seconds to 30 seconds! I sure dont wants to spam 4 skills every 8 seconds…
For mobility, Teleport is taken by Firebird. I suggest “increase movement speed” by 25% per element.
Movement speed is an option, but I would probably go for something like:
> Attacking with arcane, fire, cold or lightning reduces all damage taken by 20% for 14 seconds, stacking up to four times. As long as you maintain stacks, Wave of Force teleports you to your target before the shock wave is released.
A bit weird, but I think such a mechanic would be fun - especially for Tal Rasha.
So the machanic is similar to like a Monk with Epiphany… casting Cyclone Strike would teleport the monk beside the monster…
But what would that do when there are no enemies to teleport to? And if you teleport to a monster, it implies melee range skilll (ie Explosive Blast) and not usefull for Frozeon Orb build. FO has better range.
Nope, you don’t need a targeted enemy. It might be a bit misleading. Attacking just means casting an attack spell - like it is with the currect set.
As for “teleports you to your target”, I mean that you teleport to where the pointer is, similar to the Teleport skill. So maybe “destination” is a better wording.
In essence the intended effect would be pretty much like casting “Teleport, Calamity” while using Aetherwalker. You gain an AP consuming teleport skill that releases a Wave of Force. But now here’s the big difference - you have control over the elemental damage type. It’s not only Arcane (Calamity). WoF: Heat Wave for example is Fire. Within Tal Rasha that’s very valuable as it makes the whole skill selection more flexible.
Tal doesn’t need a rework to include a mobility buff, you’d just use the Illusionist passive for that. In fact, the playstyle of the set is fine right now. It only needs a hefty dmg buff and a rework of the 4p dmg reduction bonus. See my reply to another thread:
Illusionist is fine for pushes but insufficient for fast tier solo speeds.
Worst thing about solo farming on wizard IMO is that virtually all our builds except Firebird’s require 3 weapons for good DPS. This is fine for pushing, but it means there’s no room for Aether Walker in speeds without giving up big damage.
Firebird speeds are best for solo XP on wizard, but slow enough that they aren’t particularly efficient for gear and gem levels.
You can do Typhon’s Hydra or FO with Aether Walker, but then you have to go 10-15 tiers lower and the XP sucks. Better for gear/gems, but terrible for XP.
There’s a big gap between super speed 90s with Hydra/FO + Aether Walker vs. running slower but higher for XP with Firebird’s. And there’s not much to fill that gap. It’d be really nice if we had something to run somewhere in the middle, doing 2 min runs for decent XP instead of being stuck to 1-1.5 min runs for no XP or 3.5 min runs for big XP.
Manual Flame Blades is probably the best option right now for ‘faster runs on a lower tier than Firebird Mirror Images but still okay XP’, but it’s not quite fast enough for my taste. Way more enjoyable than Mirror Images. But the constant need to Disintegrate to get burns on slows it down a bit too much. Same problem DMO always had for speed farming, the need to constantly drop bubbles just slows it down a bit too much.
I’d love a rework to Tal’s that added Aether Walker-like mobility to help bridge that gap. It would make for a more balanced solo speedfarming experience. It doesn’t have to be as good for XP/hour as Firebird’s Mirror Images, but something that is still decent for XP but does faster runs on a bit lower tier so is better for gear/shards/gem levels would be very nice.
I see. The solution should be to add a damage multiplier to Aether Walker (applied for Xs after teleporting), as some have suggested. Of course, the multiplier should be lower than those of Wizardspike/Unstable Scepter, but high enough to make a build like Tal FO good for speedfarming.
This addresses the problem while leaving the playstyle of the set alone.
In contrast, this would not be as elegant of a solution since Tal was not intended to be a teleport-set. It would be eschewing the theme of the set as a crutch to expedite speedfarming. And I have the same issue with new Firebirds. There’s nothing thematically about Firebirds that says it should be about teleports. Old Firebirds was a much more polished set, like Tal is now.
None of our sets really was - with Vyr (Archon Teleport) being a slight exception… but is that really so important anymore? I’ll be frank here… buffing AW with a damage % is fine, I’m all for that. But still, Teleport requiring AW was also a point why I suggested using Wave of Force within Tal Rasha. That skill has no item support and we can just use it. You’d end up with mobility that works in Tal Rasha’s favor, since WoF has different elements based on the rune you fancy. That’s loads better than being bound to Arcane thanks to Calamity… in the end I would flat out redesign the whole set in a way that promotes multi-element and multi-skill use while keeping Auto-Meteors, e.g. like this:
Tal Rasha’s Elements:
(2) piece bonus:
Applying or refreshing Elemental Exposure instantly drops a Meteor of the same element on the target. This can happen once every second for each element. Elemental Exposure stacks last 10 seconds and multiply Meteor damage dealt to an affected target.
(4) piece bonus:
Casting an Arcane, Cold, Fire or Lightning skill grants Elemental Fury, reducing all damage taken by 20% for 10 seconds and stacking up to four times. At four stacks, switching between different elements resets the duration. While maintaining Elemental Fury, casting Wave of Force teleports you and releases the shockwave at your destination.
(6) piece bonus:
Elemental Fury increases all damage dealt by XXXX% per stack. Elemental Exposure instantly deals XXXXX% weapon damage per applied element when you hit an affected target with an Arcane Power spending or generating skill.
But anything close to that is highly unlikely to happen. If anything they will just buff numbers and be done with it.
Hmm what do you mean by ‘anymore’? What do you think has changed to make it not so important now?
WoF doesn’t really need a helping hand. While it can’t serve as damage dealer, it finds use buffing arcane skills via its Arcane Attunement rune. Both Star Pact and twisters have benefited from this. Another issue is that the Teleport - Calamity animation looks quite similar to WoF’s, so it would be redundant to have both skills work as teleport.
This is too convoluted of a rework for what was originally a simple-working (therefore elegant) set. Also I really don’t enjoy this trend of tying entire set bonuses to a single random skill. Rather, sets should strive to incorporate multiple skills, with individual skills buffed by legendaries.
For Tal’s the theme should be the 4 elements. Insteading of forcing Elemental Exposure as a passive for the 2p, just have the 2p be a beefed up EE:
(2) Set:
Gain the Elemental Exposure passive, and Elemental Exposure’s damage bonus per stack is increased to 10%. (this is the Primordial Soul effect)
Then as mentioned the 4p should be % dmg reduction, and the 6p a numbers buff:
(4) Set:
Arcane, Cold, Fire, and Lightning attacks each reduce your damage taken by 15% for X seconds. (for 60% total)
(6) Set:
Attacks increase your damage by 7500% for 8 seconds. Arcane, Cold, Fire, and Lightning attacks each add one stack. At 4 stacks, each different elemental attack extends the duration by 2 seconds, up to a maximum of 8 seconds.
Notice that now all 3 set bonuses have to do with stacking elemental stacks, with no other skills (Meteor, teleport) interfering.
Resistances @ 100% per is fine without much DR, maybe 10% per stack as this should still be our glass cannon speed like set. Which is why your increased movement makes perfect sense here, but maybe 15% per not 25% a little OP.
But all purpose heavy hitting damage set that needs multiple spells should have the damage numbers to back it up, thus 5000% per stack makes sense here.
Tal Rasha was a top tier Mage who sacrificed himself to imprison Baal.
No wonder Baal got out… his gears suck!
The biggest issue with etherial hunt this season was there isn’t a 110 speed run in 2 mins build. I’d also say WD had the same issue. As people have mentioned tals is the perfect set for it a percentage of movement speed on the 4 pc would be really nice. Especially if it stacks with the scramble rune. (Going to be using karini right?)
My issue with tals is the mandatory 4 element spam. It’s like playing a piano. If each stack lasted 20+ seconds it would give a more relaxed play style. And a more consistent 6pc damage output.
The limited choices on your skills is another issue. We get 6 skill slots. 4 of them will need to be a different element. Between wizard skills and legendary powers there is a very fine illusion of choice. As has been mentioned 3/4 of those element skills will be doing 0 damage.
The last issue with tals is more a wizard issue in that all the power in legendarys comes on weapon/offhand. With exception of a couple rings, that compete with f/r. The pledge/rose set and squirt’s compete with tals having a neck slot. Forcing you to use other slots. The rrog is almost mandatory due to this. I would like to see an shoulders/boots Legos added. As generic wizard damage buff. Maybe something that with the 4-6pc bonus stacks were at 4 stacks you get xyz. These bonuses should be more qol bonuses and not just free damage(although free damage doesn’t hurt) but like x% attack speed, rcr, cdr, maybe the movement speed here instead of baked in set like suggestioned above.
Tals was one of my favorite sets when I started. I currently use the explosion blast t16 build for solo keys. Because I find farming paragons/gemups ect easier on other classes but still needed to hunt etherials on wiz.
Haven’t played Tal Rasha for years (apart from a challenge rift recently) but isn’t it so that once your 4 skill buff is up you only have to refresh two of them to keep going?
for the 6pc yes, for the 4pc you have to keep resetting every few seconds. If i remember right. unless I missed that in the patch notes.
Nope you are right. This little part of the 6pc should just go into the 4p bonus.
Have you guys not figured it out yet? Blizzard sets the meta… they nerf and buff…even completely revamp sets they either no longer want you to use or buff tf out of what they want to be meta…Tals used to be meta. The set has not changed since it came out. Vyrs is completely unchanged as well…I quit playing for awhile but I know Firebirds has been changed at least twice. I don’t remember other classes but looking at Natalya’s this season I think that one was changed.