Just because I never saw on any Diablo forums anywhere the praise of D3 “fluid combat”. Quite vice versa. Hence my assumption - probably only those who don’t care about Diablo too much and played D3 once just “for fun” liked this type of combat.
but it didn’t take all the core game mechanics over and it certainly didn’t copy them exactly as they were.
Stagger itself was actually altered in how it worked in Diablo 2 and things like not being able to run or finding spells from dropped books rather than class skill trees were completely removed.
So I guess we should go back to that, since preserving the original’s core gameplay is so vital. Let’s bring the core gameplay exactly to what it was in Diablo 1.
and then sure, we can have stagger on every mob.
Well those don’t need to be massive. They could reduce their size if they wanted to.
Sure, the reddit people agree with your sentiment.
How often must i debacle your statements?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/lsulpd/monsters_feeling_weightless_in_diablo_4/
Yet for some reason the affix itself still carried over from D1 to D2 in itemization: “Faster/Fastest his recovery”.
I dont remember anyone from the old community moaning because of hit recovery.
But it seems im not alone in this regard since other people keep bringing this back with argumentations.
I would argue that D1 looks more similar to PoE in this regard since D2 turned all classes to have fix spells and in PoE/D1 you are allowed to learn basically any spell with any class.
But in D2 you could still achieve spells from other classes through itemization.
There was still freedom to experiment different creative builds and not be strict in D3 like:
“This class can only use these spells because that breaks class identity, so we decide how you are able to play/customize your character”.
Well since I’ve been proposing they still have a stat, would you feel better if we called it fast/faster/fastest recovery?
Well like I said, it becomes pretty inconsequential in Diablo 2 if you’re stacking VIT like you should be anyway after getting just enough STR/DEX for your gear since Diablo 2 changed stagger to be based on your max HP instead of your level.
Not worth thinking about in Diablo 2, but this is a discussion on Diablo 4 so I figured maybe we can do better than that.
In my experience what some people around here keep trying to bring back is the idea that Diablo 4 should just be Diablo 2 with better graphics, even now that we’re getting an actual remastered Diablo 2.
Oh sure those people will claim they don’t think that, but on any given feature they’ll find a way to argue it must behave EXACTLY like Diablo 2 or it’s terrible.
and frequently they throw out “but in Diablo 3…” even when the argument has nothing to do with how Diablo 3 worked, like the game is some kind of bogeyman and we should be terrified of venturing out from just doing exactly what Diablo 2 did because of it.
I tried coming up with a revised version that still threatens the player and allows for FHR to even exist as a stat and a way to keep FHR relevant even when fighting mobs that don’t stagger you.
but it’s not exactly the same as it was in Diablo 2, so I guess that’s not good enough.
No problem if its the same as it worked like in D1 or improving on it.
stacking vitality is another story on how everyone knows how broken that was and how useless energy was in comparison to magic like in D1.
How little every Str stat gave damage for melee classes or any other side effects besides str requirements on gear, same with agility for the bowazon for example.
With proper balance closer to D1 there are ways around it.
There is time for experimentation for the development of D4, but the devs should definetely look at the core of the elements and look on how to improve upon them if you want a rather new game experience instead of just scrapping and saying lame excuses like “yeah, well we didnt like it so its most likely not coming back”.
And just copy paste D3 combat.
A reddit thread with 150 posts. Well you sure proved me wrong! /sarcasm
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It hardly matters why everybody was stacking vitality, just that they were stacking it which is a major part of why stagger was so inconsequential for many people.
and my argument about fixing it has always been that once it’s not inconsequential it’s not a fun mechanic.
What I’m suggesting is taking it and tweaking it so that it should be improved, but people are still taking issue with it because it doesn’t behave exactly like Diablo 2 and take full control away from your character.
Nice to see this dead horse is still being beaten into a fine red mist even as I constantly reiterate I don’t want them to just copy past Diablo 3 combat and am suggesting they do things that weren’t part of Diablo 3 combat.
It shows up very often in the various threads about what the different Diablo games did right.
Combat fluidity is pretty much the one thing D3 did right.
Strange because i ve never seen it. Then again, this is a matter to investigate what do people mean by “fluid” and if it has any connections with the absense of hit recovery. Just because fluidness is there purely because of fluid animations and movement - unlike D1 or D2 where these are not fluid.
Now you have:
Quite a few of the posters in this thread mention it.
I’d like to remind the thread, and thank everyone for talking so far even if there aren’t many agreements on this apparently super heated topic.
One gigantic point seems to stand out to me.
In diablo 2, when you get hit by basically any monster or spell, you get put in hit recovery for a very short time, reduced by gearing with +FHR. Hopefully nobody disagrees with this basis bc it is, truly, factual, yes?
That being said.
So, lets say you’re running in Act 5 chasing baal for a CoA or something, solo. We don’t like those who leech xp and cheese the game that way, i did it, it was lame, i quit doing it, bc it was lame. But most ppl take the ladder over the river instead of trying to swim and be pure, its human nature, not the way i’d game now that im not new to gaming, but others have every right to take the shortcuts provided, its spike vs johnny, “win anyway” or “win my own, on my 2 feet, way”
So,
If you’re in A5, you get hit by a black soul.
That puts you in hit recovery.
you lose control for a very short moment.
you can’t TP into town quick or run away from the next attack coming your way (not an elite affix like D3 but an actual like monster attack or spell).
You get hit by a 2nd or 3rd soul attack and you are done.
This simple example explains WHY hit recovery IS involved in almost all deaths. No, not every single one, that first soul could 1 shot you. That happens less than 2 or more shot. Or it hits you, and some venom lord deals final blow, but you were put in hit recovery during that time where you could if not in hit recovery had TP’d to town.
Does every single one of you understand this?
This is what i was disagreeing with Cyo about for like 2 days.
We’re good Cyo, just using our convo as an example.
This is WHY hit recovery instantly losing control for a 1/4 second or w/e it is upon almost all recieved attacks in D2 is a BIG, BIG, BIG deal to combat. It’s HOW you die directly, or, sets you up to die. It’s almost ALWAYS involved whether you think about it or not, another point we had disagree’d on.
You do not have to gear for FHR, that’s your choice, you cannot stop monsters from hit recovering you without gear / reduce it,
So, in D3, it’s just overspreadingly called “smooth”.
Not having hit recovery is mostly why.
Movement skills on cooldown is another reason
Big maps monsters not dealing melee attacks and instead casting affixes on rotation is another. Monsters moving slow relative to D2, and so on.
So, in D3 you can run right through a mob pack. D3’s biggest flaw right here. Not bashing, being factual.
In D2, you cannot. You will get put in hit recovery, and possibly die if you aren’t overgeared.
This is why D2 feels “not smooth” but D3 feels “smooth” and "feeling smooth’ means you don’t have to care about whats in front of you nearly as much as ‘not smooth’ combat. Like, “not smooth” is the by far more engaging combat system, you have to do combat, you cant just run by like D3.
Does this make sense everyone?
Hit recovery is invovled in almost all D2, it’s a cc that you usually die because.
Randomly getting spike damaged down with a 1 shot does happen too, yes, but that is not most deaths, be real about it.
I hope everyone can +1 if they agree to this post.
If you do not agree, PLEASE, 2021 / adult it, meaning, include an example with your post as to why f/e hit recovery is not related / the major reason a death happened in D2. Please include an example why being able to run through mob packs and not really care how many / if they damage you or not is a good game. Or, just agree that hit recovery is really important for combat to be ‘good’ and engaging and not just running by to what we want to get to.
Every single player will be chasing elites / the loot holders. Hit recovery is the major (of more than one) speed bump / barbed wire from letting you do that easily. It’s beyond essential. like that is why so many ppl got tired of D3 its just too easy to run to elites and skip. like its not how D2 did it, and why would we not want a mechanic that lets us value trash mobs? They could CC us so the big bad elite, or, groups of fast small mobs (countess archers f/e, zombie packs f/e) can gang you down. Like, cc/hit recovery is / should be in the s-tier of their “is combat good?” list. Penalties for dying should also be up there, movement skills not on cooldown should be there too. Elites casting frost nova if they’re cold enchanted when they die, ccing you but not hit recovering you. that’s a big one Poison cloud on death casts from enemies. NOT just a repetitive dot firebomb like d3 did it that is way too slow to be threatening. Like not hating, a quick “Frost nova” you’re frozen (and for a variable amt of time based on how strong that monster was) combined with firebomb i guess and poison cloud like you want varied on death explosions one CC’s you others dont and damage you. Anyway going off topic here myself.
In D3, most elites didnt do melee, they did affix casting, essentially they were mages slow moving mages, that’s all you fought / why you can be a sorc and stand right in the mix of things which in D2 you couldnt bc hit recovery checks ranged very hard. If it wasn’t for hit recovery f/e, no hammerdin would ever die in D2 not once. This is a 2nd reason hit recovery cc is critical, its what keeps spellcasaters in check if its in the game. And not that pvp is that sweet, i mean it is at low levels yes where it’s simple but hard bc it’s simple / limited. Pvp is not interesting if there’s no hit recovery. How would a idk, melee barb deal with a teleporting sorc without hit recovery?? Like, see how giant of a deal this is? How is youtube NOT covering this for a week straight?
Anyway keep posting your thoughts to this one if you read it it’s a good summary, and PLEASE post supporting examples bc without them its just back and forth of nothing like example - comparing is how things get seen more easily and understood. Please if you like D3 more put that aside and just be objective, use examples, not “this way’s better just cause” stuff. Obviously keep it polite too.
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The only caveat here is that this only triggers if you take a hit that deals more than 1/12th or 8.33% of your max HP in damage. It’s also possible to be immune to this effect, for example during a Whirlwind.
Also I guess for the purposes of clarification: This is what I call stagger since that’s the generic term in gaming for it.
On a side note there is also something called Hit Stun which ignores your HP and just stuns you anyway, usually applying a knockback as well. Duriel is an example of a mob that does this. It’s not super common, however as far as I remember FHR does affect the duration of this.
This is why the above caveat was important to note. According to the wiki a Black Soul does 42 - 108 damage on Hell. Even if only dealing max damage, a character with more than 1296 HP will not be put in hit recovery, thus nullifying your entire example.
Which loops us back to what the meta for Diablo 2 is: Get just enough STR/DEX for your gear, then put everything into Vitality. Vitality that increases your max HP and in turn makes it so enemies need to do more damage to stagger you.
On a conceptual level I agree that being constantly staggered for .28 - 0.6 seconds(the rough estimates of how long it lasts if you have 0 FHR, depending on class) would cause a character a ton of issues in a game like Diablo 2 where you are routinely up against a dozen or more enemies at once.
What I disagree with is on how often an enemy can actually do it you, thanks largely to inflated health pools from a meta that reinforces stacking Vitality over everything else(which I did even before I understood how hit recovery worked).
and of course as I’ve noted a few times: Even in the event that the design were changed so it DID happen all the time, that’s not a fun game mechanic to have and there are other ways to address the issues brought up by a lack of this mechanic.
Anyway keep posting your thoughts
I will post it again, D2 Hit Recovery bad, D1 Hit Recovery good -)
Armor is there to avoid being hit, HP pool is there to endure hit.
And yes, no matter how many times people will write about that, D4 devs won’t implement it “beCaUsE it DoeSnt FeeL GoOd”. Eh. Ghost combat is their everything.
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You are free to check all videos in youtube regarding Diablo in general instead of living in your dream world in a bubble of this forum.
The mayority of the comments are always against D3 from what it seems.
There are also many D3 hate videos too, just look at Jay Wilson GDC amount of dislikes and comments.
Even in a video comparing D2R vs D4 people more people are rooting for D2R.
If you would have understood my message, I meant the devs design philosophy appareantly seems they want to just copy past D3 designs into D4.
Just like monster affixes and confirming that they are removing for sure Hit Recovery by being asked directly in a Q&A.
Nah, it’s you D2 zealots that live in a bubble. Aren’t you the guy that also pretends that D2’s UI doesn’t suck?
I don’t really see the point in this system. A player already wants as much Health and Defense as possible, why tie them to HR too ?
But I agree there needs to be more character reaction from hits, mostly from big enemies. Seeing the Rogue jump in the middle of an Elite pack just to fire with her bow doesn’t feel very gripping.
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Because a player wants Defence (Armor) to avoid being hit (at least too often). And Hit Recovery is a recovery from a hit.
Armor in D1 is a classic DND check for miss/hit. Example: If you have 20 Armor, skeleton will have 65% chance to hit, and 35% to miss. If he hits you, some HP is subtracted from your HPpool (skeleton wep. damage number), and Hit Recovery animation is activated, making you unable to move/attack/jump/escape until it ends (usually it is very short, takes milliseconds). If he misses, nothing happens, you are safe. If you have, lets say, 50 Armor, skeleton will have 15% chance to hit… if you have 100 Armor or more, he will always miss.
This is a cool system not only because it is very logical and realistic, but also because it helps a lot to balance ingame things easily. You can understand what armor a player should have to progress in this area, that area or somewhere else. When it doesn’t work that way, things become perplexed and complicated, as all difficulty is tied only to your HP pool which is modified by many different variables.
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Since people here think losing control over your character made you a badass hardcore player if you know how to stack FHR, why stopped at the monster’s attack?
Just make every monster in D4 cause 100% nightmarish/fear for 6 seconds, or 100% knockback (and caused slow upon landing) every time they hit you, so you guys can enjoying stacking control impairing stat too because why not?
Because this is not how combat works in real life.
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Maybe as I never encountered a superman who can use magic or fought a real demon beast or something like that in my life.