Hit Recovery Removed - D4

General Discussion
41

Crap gets flung on both sides of this one. As somebody who isn’t shy about criticizing both games, I commonly get crap flung at me from both sides.

Also to be fair I did chime in with an example and actual arguments and you turned around and told me that my own memory of playing the game happened a different way than I said it did.

Which in my experience is very common of the D2 fanbase around here. A lot of them like to insist that the way I played the game was not in fact how I played the game.

Which is itself pretty disrespectful.

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42

For pvp FHR was definitely a crucial stat, especially for casters.
As WW assa with base FHR of 9 then you could probably settle for 48 FHR, ducking while wwing. Maybe even 27 FHR, althought I would personally laugh at any assa running that, laugh as I completely destroy them. I would also get utterly destroyed if I ever yolod my build with zero regards to FHR in pvp.

Now in endgame PVM builds, FHR is also very valuable, especially if you plan on running 3-4+ player difficulty, or even carrying games of 8 players. But nvm endgame builds, starter characters specifically would experience the struggle with getting hit, especially as a sorc (with 15 FHR base), and low hp to boot. Did clueless players not bother gearing for it and still enjoy the game? I’d say yes. Remember that some classes, melees specifically, had an easier time dealing with that due to lower FHR base (which base sense). So they needed less of that stat than casters. But even just a few pieces with FHR alleviated a lot of the early problems many characters, specifically casters, had with getting hit. So to me it was a rather interesting and important stat, because it changed how the game played.

Now as for the thread, I personally do not mind if they get rid of that stat if they replace it with something interesting. But looking at some of the stats presented in D4 so far I’d say FHR was definitely at the bottom of the “Get rid of”- list.

43

Cyo, i was not referring to you btw to clear that up.
There’s 2 on here who i avoid talking to bc they refuse to see another side of the coin, and that’s not even the problem it’s they don’t provide supporting examples for their anti-me posts that’s the big tell, if they can’t provide examples, it’s just online “I like this game more so i bash that game” as usual so i rise above them, usually, i got baited by one of them on my own fault.

I’ve never noticed a diablo 3 political stance from you, and politely, all i have noticed is a pretty strong unwillingness to agree about FHR being like the dominant, / a dominant, and usually split 50/50 with damage, on why deaths happen at all in D2.

Like, i feel a reasonable response is to be like yea CC matters like most the time with D2 deaths, not every single one, but like that was the nail i was hammering down how can we clearly ID deaths with no hit recovery mattering and our combined list was like, tiny to say the least frequency and scope wise.

I wasn’t telling you your memory i different that’s your interpretation or so, and if you think that please don’t. Again politely and adult-ly i sense a strong resistance to agree with my point hr is a giant factor in diablo 2’s combat and is not a factor in diablo 3’s combat, and its one of the major reason’s diablo 2’s combat is so superior to 3’s.

I guess if you have anything to contribute about HR and how it mattered or did not matter with examples in D2, that would help but i mean i don’t know what ele to ask of you, and my summary of your posts is you don’t think HR was a big deal / important in D2, and if you hold that opinion, great! I don’t, at all, lol, not even close, but respectfully lets…totally disagree and move forward?

44

I like hit recovery. It’s not meant to ‘feel good’ just like when your character dies in a game, it doesn’t ‘feel good’ either. You need mechanics that don’t ‘feel good’ because they communicate danger and tension. I do like the stagger bar idea more though as it fits a decent middle ground where maybe your character takes so many hits before a hit recovery is activated and then there are affixes on items that can slow down that activation and also recover it faster.

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45

No. Stagger bar means there is no way to overcome hit-stun - you can only avoid it moving between monsters and trying to take as less hits as possible (D3 GR push works exactly that way now). However with D1 armor system you ll know that you always need better gear - in a hard area moving between monsters won’t help, as just 1 hit can stun you right on the place. So you need gear with better armor. And this is a core part of an ARPG - to get better gear to progress. In D1 at first you hunt for good bases - cap ac1 → skull cap ac4, etc. Later on you hunt for magic affixes which increase your armor: +50% armor, +124%, etc. Best armor ever: Godly Full Plate of Whale. Best base AC - 75. Best 2 defence affixes: +200% armor, and +100 HP. Both affixes work in 2 separate areas of personal defence. Simple and elegant game mechanics.

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46

Sure you could. There might be skills, gear, even potions etc. that helped with reducing the stagger bar.

47

Then this makes the whole idea meaningless - gameplay will be just as right now in D3.

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48

Nah, it just offers gameplay and build choices.
Do more dmg, or perform better against enemy CC. Etc.
Kinda like what was the purpose of the Hit recovery system as you described above.

49

In D1 you equip armor (helms, shields, chests) only to defend yourself, and this is great. You don’t have to sactifice armor to do more damage. Again, that was great. And this makes sense. Armor is there to defend. On the other hand, drinking pots or perfoming some skill tricks so that enemies will stun you only after 10 hits and not 9 sounds really weird.

50

Can’t say I agree. Seems anti-RPGish to me.
Choosing between offense and defense should be a standard part of a build.

While this sounds like more engaging combat to me.

51

I think a big part of the problem is the complete lack of feedback from our character when being hit 90% of the time. It looks so weird when these hulking demons slam you with giant weapons yet you don’t react at all. Nothing. I just see the health globe reduced. There needs to be a reaction of some sort from the character and even an impact on movement, ever so slightly. It almost looks like they have clipping on or something

4 Likes
52

I just tend to argue whatever I think is best. I’m also rather open that I think Diablo 2 is the far better game, but that Diablo 3 is not completely without merit. Diablo 3’s strongest point is probably its fluidity of movement and Diablo 4 should absolutely try to capture that.

I explicitly stated that I was not being staggered/hit recovered and your response was to tell me that I died because I was being staggered/hit recovered.

There is a strong resistance to me agreeing with your point because HR was not a major factor in my deaths in Diablo 2. I’m not going to say never but I would estimate less than 5% of the time.

I would reiterate again since it’s a point that was ignored that if HR actually mattered or not in Diablo 2 is largely academic.

Diablo 4 is not beholden to copying Diablo 2 or Diablo 3. It is allowed to introduce new mechanics that can threaten the player.

We have more options than “Be Diablo 2” or “Be Diablo 3”, despite the way so many people around here act.

I would be fine with an animation and even something like instead of being staggered you’re slowed by 50% for half a second.

The actual hard CC on EVERY mob though leaves me feeling 1 of 2 ways:

  1. If it’s prevalent enough to matter, being constantly CC’d isn’t fun gameplay
  2. If it’s not prevalent enough to matter, it’s not designed well and should be reworked.
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53

Ye it looks really foolish (not even cartoonish because in a cartoon there is hit recovery always, even often exaggerated -).

If they want combat to be “fluid” they could at least make staggering attack/move animations, which could be a pure visual thing (though perhaps it would take a lot of additional work. Or… maybe not).

By the way, if I’m not mistaken, there ARE hit recovery animations for monsters (yes, they are there, though not activated too often for some reason).

54

I think thats because our damage in D2 is never a certain fixed damage number.
Its always between X-X and depending if we deal 12% of damage of their life in one hit (just like our chars) enemy gets staggered/mini stuned.
Monsters stats in D2 were designed closely like our characters with vitality, attack rating, (evasion if im not mistaken) and hit recovery.
Thats why fanactism aura enchanted mobs pack even makes sense, because their hit chance with attack rating also increases.
Elite affixes are just a bonus, but D2 monsters actually got stat mechanics.

55

Honestly if we want to look at it from a more realistic perspective the mechanic ought to be reworked.

Yeah it’s silly to get hit by a 200lbs club and not react. It’s also silly to be swinging a 200lb club and have a tiny little demon stop you mid-swing. Momentum says that club ain’t stopping, even if you do.

A more realistic effect would probably be something that slows movement and reduces damage dealt by X% for half a second upon a hit triggering a stagger.

On top of having an animation for it, of course.

56

Well, if you remember Act3 durance of hate ogres, they actually do a bigger stagger/knockback from one swing instead of hit recovery.
Yeah, this is the one

Edit: found it, this is the one i meant:

57

I remember the mobs in general that have the stun on hit effect but they’re also not super relevant to my point about how it’s technically possible for a tiny demon to stop a 200lbs club mid-swing and that’s just as silly as not reacting to being hit by a 200lbs club.

Honestly even that beefy tree guy isn’t gonna stop the club’s momentum unless he actually blocks it rather than attacking the person swinging it.

(also 200lbs clubs are unrealistic in the first place, but eh…a different discussion entirely)

58

Its about who strikes first.
If you receive a strong blow you will physically lose balance of your body if you are swinging a 200lbs club.
Its a similar way how fighting games works.
Who connects first is able to do the next hits via combos, or whatever.
Just like in Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat.

59

I’m talking about it from a more realistic perspective since it was mentioned being hit with a 200lbs club and not reacting is silly. I don’t really care what fighting games do. They’re not realistic either and Diablo 2 isn’t trying to be a fighting game.

If you get hit it’ll unbalance you. Hell, swinging a 200lbs club is probably going to unbalance you even if you’re super strong.

What it will not do is full dead stop the momentum of a 200lbs club mid-swing. That club is going through on its swing unless something of equal force acts on the club itself and that would be a block or a parry which already should have their own rules.

That’s why I said a X% damage reduction as well because yeah, it’ll definitely mess up your swing but it wont dead stop it.

60

Diablo doesn’t need fully realistic combat, physics can (and even must be) tweaked to some extent. It is just the absence of physics that feels really bad.