Hit Recovery Removed - D4

General Discussion
21

Explain, Cyo!
What ways in packs are we threatened in D2?
On death spike damage like freeze dolls poison cloud.
On death immobilization like freeze.
Spike range damage, like archers, souls, duriel, meph’s orb, diablo’s flamethrower, etc.
Being surrounded by so many bodies you can’t move, essentially almost hit recovering you. it happens to all us non teleporting classes asterisk.

Like that’s all i can think of altho i am wiped out and logging off for a while.
A key point is that hammerdin or sorc or wind druid or trapsin wearing enigma or w/e, all those super top meta builds are affected by faster hit recovery.

Well clearly they are not bc they wipe the game in 2 seconds but they still ARE in theory and may may not gear for that. In pvp, lld especially, yes you gear for fhr.

Like one of my first hammerdin days after i got over how cool and awesome i was in the mirror, i got surrounded idk nilathek or something and that…hit recovery mechanic…got me. I died as a hammerdin, it DOES happen.

And that’s only bc of hit recovery in the game.
My meta lightsorc died from hit recovery often.

So do things like (my fav build) the fast running javazon that may run INTO a mob pack, get hit recovered, and could die.

Like its essential cyo, don’t you see this? / my point?
I know you know d2 too, which is nice.

So what is my little list of 5 things missing on “How do you die in D2 without having hit recovery” because if THAT list got expanded a lot, then there’s an argument to faster hit recovering being totally worthless garbage, i mean i doubt it but it’s 2020+ everything has to be extreme on gaming forums for attention.

FHR is key it really is.
Another way to look at it is d3 which ofc we all know.
In D3 you run into a mob pack (movement skill into a mob pack with full mana ready to go…) and they whack you. You just carry on. Well the monsters don’t really attack in D3, that’s the thing, they designed them to be like orbs of affixes that make noises (not hating, serious opinion) and cast affixes at you in rotation as you know all this.

So, it goes hand in hand with monster design.
If monsters don’t actually attack, there’s no point in having hit recovery.
If monsters only cast affixes for damage / control, lol, like d3, like are they really monsters? They’re just a bunch of mages then.

I mean we see the fields of misery spear chucking things those can hit you, and they dont put you in hit recovery and that’s why you never get surrounded bc the spear doesnt immobilize you like hit recovery would. Contrary to d2’s countess archers f/e you get hit you get in recovery then they quickly swarm you in a tight corridor. That’s called challenging / engaging combat. I mean think of ranged.

Ranged in d2 is only challenged by tight maps and hit recovery.
Like fact, monster density but that’s synonymous with tight map.
This is what im sayin cyo, take away one of ranges biggest counterplays, i mean yikes D4 is looking like a ranged or don’t log in game already. we pretty much had that with d2 but bc the game is about collecting all these rare items and trying out builds instead of beating some rift or so, its endgame to be melee bc you dont have to play the hardest content at endgame, its about builds and item collecting. and pvp if that’s your thing if not no big deal collect items like all streamers do who full time the game.

So, again how in D2 do you die when hit recovery isn’t a factor
on death explosions, on death immobility, spike damage ranged, monster density when swarmed, i guess iron maiden the curse, a poison cloud dot like from andy or so, i mean none of this is melee damage to you.

Why would they even call D3’s monsters “monsters” if they don’t actually attack you they should be called “mages” or “affix bearers” or something. Minus well give just about every elite in D3 a wizard hat and just be like these things are mages, they dont hurt you physically. And, i dont think that’s really what diablo should be about fighting trash mobs and mages only who don’t posses a physical attack.

When i think of diablo i think of idk running into a zombie that “whacks” you or bishibosh and he shoots a fireball at you that puts you in hit recovery so his minions can matter in the combat. Not that everyone pvps, but think about that too, if no hit recovery, what is pvp? Like what is it doing?

Make sense?

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22

The funny thing is whenever I mention Diablo 2 being a relatively easy game, the hardcore D2 fanbase come out of the woodwork to tell me all about the things in the game that are not easy like:

  • The ghost mobs that fire mana draining missiles, or mobs with the mana burn affix.
  • Areas like the Maggot Lair where there is very little room to move around
  • The Flayers in Act 3 that explode on death
  • Pretty much anything with a high degree of burst damage.
  • Mobs that feature multiple immunities

These are all things I’ve been told make Diablo 2 “not easy”, but when I mention how stagger mechanics aren’t needed suddenly it’s “but how are mobs going to threaten us?”.

Not to mention you can still make enemies surround the player by not letting the player just walk through them without clipping. Sure there are some abilities that can be used to escape, but they probably shouldn’t be as easily spammed as you can in Diablo 2 anyway.

It’s also worth noting that I’m not saying CC is bad to use against the player no matter what, just that it ought to be used sparingly. This also largely only applies to hard CC that causes a loss of control.

An enemy that slows you or even roots you is fine. Even having a few enemies that stun is fine, they just shouldn’t all have a chance of doing it by virtue of hitting you with a basic attack. For the purposes of Diablo 4, there should also be mobs that can easily dismount you to make running through the world a bit more dangerous.

It also honestly never really affected my gear choices in Diablo 2. Sure some of my characters had FHR but it was never something I specifically went after. It was just something I sort of picked up in the pursuit of other stats and it happened to be on the gear that had what I wanted.

Like I said in the other thread, most of the time I was ignoring stagger part way through Act 1 Normal because of the fact that most characters build heavy vitality anyway. I wont say I never died because of it, but it’s certainly not up there on my list of things that killed me the most.

That’s why I say it was tolerable in Diablo 2. It was never really something I felt I had to address, it just got naturally addressed through playing my character. At the same time, that’s what makes it feel like such an irrelevant mechanic.

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Honestly kind of shocked you never paid attention to FHR in Diablo II. If you are playing in Hell with certain builds, it is crucial to survival. Or even to have enough to get past a certain breakpoint with a sorc so when you are teleing likea madwoman, you don’t die from one enemy hitting you and stopping you in your tracks. Of course that is dependenant on the build, purpose, and how you play. That is why it is so nice, because depending on your class and build, you may want a lot, a little, or somewhere in between. Sometimes you go…hmm, I want max resistances, but you know what, I will sacrifice 30% fire resist to get to that next FHR breakpoint, because I know the way I play it will be more useful.

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It was just never something that felt like I needed to go out of my way to get. I’ll also add that I had a higher level character of every class except for Druid which I’ve never really cared for Druids in games.

Admittedly most of my characters boasted fairly large HP pools and the stagger was based off your max HP. Once I could equip the items I was planning on wearing, I dumped everything into Vitality. There was little reason to have anything else.

Like I said some of my characters had FHR, it was just never something that actually influenced my gear choice. It was a stat that was just along for the ride when I was really after something else on the item.

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Cyo i think you’re missing the pt im stressing, while also hitting it on other parts.

So, 1 you say like “i never geared for FHR” THAT right there is a different thing than “does the game have melee attacks that have hit recovery tied to them that challenge your build / make you think about where you run”.

You don’t have to gear for FHR to be affected by hit recovery being a mechanic in the game. Does this critical thing make sense i know you’re smart and know this but im stressing the key difference.

Nobody has to gear for FHR and you will be affected by hit recovery whatever you do walking in the blood moor level 1 first fallen hit recoveries you. That’s the best part of diablo 2. you are challenged monster 1, throughout. Like not every single attack i think puts you in hit recovery but its probably 99 percent or something like that 90 percent idk its obviously almost all of them if not all.

So, it affects your gear choice if you want to ‘be good’ or ‘win in pvp’ (or not if you risk letting it go for a matchup). It does not affect your gear choice if you just go with it and don’t mind if you are dying more bc you aren’t able to fight back as well since most all attacks hit recovery you.

Let me ask you this cyo…when you die in diablo 2, think about every time you can recall, no matter how long its been since you logged in, was hit recovery the true reason and/or a major reason for that d2 death?

Think deep about that bc it is, for everyone, in almost all deaths.
The exceptions we talked about and seem to agree upon:
On death damage (dolls, flayers, poison DoT, frost nova, etc)
On death freeze (which is like hit recovery for a longer time)
Ranged spike damage (souls, archers, bosses, etc)
DoT that’s strong enough (like andy’s poison DoT, some of those corpses)
Being surrounded (BUT, this IS hit recovery Cyo). Like, being surronded is WHY hit recovery is mega critical. Those maggots are hit recovering you so you cant run by them in a tight corridor, its not just their bodies in the way.

Now, i can’t think of any other ways to die in D2 where hit recovery isn’t the reason but if there are more, so far the list is not substantial enough to give an idea of what diablo would be like without hit recovery.

I mean we have it in D3, and look how that turned out, its combat is so anti melee its just affixes, and clearly not many ppl prefer that.

You mentioned multiple immunities, as a reason for dying without hit recovery being a factor. Well, i mean how do i approach this. So, idk hell act 1 your a blizz soc like 2 mil other ppl at that moment in time, fallen is fire/cold immune. This is why btw immunities are so critically good for teh game, they check you, and yes, you can die bc if they’re immune you have to overgear that or you die.

Anyway, that fire cold immune fallen kills you normally how it would if it wasn’t immune so idk it yells gibberish and whacks you down. Now, you died bc you couldnt run away in time bc you got hit recovered. So i dont see how multiple immunities is a reason you died that does not involve hit recovery.

Yea its lame bc too limited, but infinity opens up 3 elements from immunities so idk why this matters i dont think it does just mentioning it.

Anyway, so if you want a game without hit recovery, think about these 5 or so reasons were listing, more like 3-4 ways you can die where hit recovery had nothing to do with it. Does that sound like a fun game?

Keep in mind they’re related, you can be hit recovered by idk the Act 5 venom Lords and then get black soul’d. The hit recovery from the venom lord put you vulnerable to be souled down more than if you were teleing freely by with your hdin or w/e. See?

Also, look at D3, which is hopefully not what they’re copying.
D3 barely has attacks, its all affix fighting, and that’s why D3 got away without hit recovery bc majority of the ‘combat’ is fighting affixes / dodging them. Seriously.

Like, yea it has ranged, but that ranged stuff doesnt hit recovery you. Neither to affixes, i mean waller or frozen happen but its bc they designed 3’s elites to be these multi element mages instead of single element hit recovery dealing (that matters bc trash mobs then matter) boss packs / champion packs.

Anwyay cyo, this is really really shallow what they’re doing.
This is bad, they don’t understand what made D1/2 so great and hit recovery you bet is in the top 5 reasons why. Again politely meant my friend! If you can find any other way to die in D2 that does NOT involve hit recovery let me know.

Ranged can/can not involve hit recovery bc say you got hit recovered by a fallen, then an archer shoots you, that hit recovery is WHY you got hit. See?

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This is one of my big concerns. If you want AoE affixes and such, at least make them feel connected to the enemy. It doesn’t feel like I am fighting an enemy, just dodging affixes (lasers, lava, exploding orbs) all day.

2 Likes
27

Just telling you people.
Cyonan is very knowledgeable but he clearly has a bias due for being a WoW player where hit recovery doesnt apply here and for him being a D3 player too.
Its clear that he will try the bestest argumentations against hit recovery, I have argued with him in the past and he always seeks an argument against it because he does not like it.

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Well back on topic what is not fine is the devs taking away a massive game mechanic out of diablo 4.

I mean why even have melee or ranged enemies?
Like this takes combat down so heavily this grand idea they have.

Nobody can give a clear, solid, list of “this is how you died in D2 where hit recovery did not factor into it or was the dominant reason” list that’s more than what Cyo and i have come up with.

It’s seriously 2, maybe 3 ways to die and it’s rare that hit recovery wouldnt play a part in it.

Like if you were poisoned by andy, maybe you got hit recovered, so you couldnt TP back to town (i know lame) to heal up. Like, its related to almost everything hit recovery it.

Like you get hit recovered, then ranged down.
You get hit recovered, then swarmed.
You get hit recovered, you can’t TP back to town or get to your group for safety.

The only case i can think of you truly often died without hit recovery mattering is spike damage where you didnt get hit first, so like dolls, flayers, a black soul (i think those hit recovered you too though).

So honestly theres almost no way to die in D2 where hit recovery wasn’t the primary or full reason. Please, anyone out there prove this wrong, bc that’s the direction D4 just headed, and that direction is “affix battling” not “attack battling”. Super, ultra, D3, low risk combat way to do the game. Absolute deal breaker. I’ll still buy it and they know it, but i wont enjoy it if combat is that simple just dodge affixes and group up like D3. Should be like D1/2 where hit recovery dominates combat and is why you actually die often prior to assembling your meta spellcaster build or w/e

Seriouy, its very rare to die in D2 (outside of ubers or playing too-high content for your gear) where hit recovery was not cause. Nobodys been able to come up with a list yet, its just fringe cases it happens.

Did Bood raven kill you?
Yea, bc those zombies hit recoveried you so you couldnt TP out of it. etc.

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It never challenged my build or made me think about where I was running either though. I guess maybe in the first 30 minutes of a character but that seems like such a minor thing that it’s almost not worth thinking about.

Even in PvP it didn’t but I will be fair here and note my main PvP character was a Whirlwind Assassin which has so much going for it in the areas of not being affected by stagger even before you consider hitting the 48% breakpoint just to deal with stuff like Smiteadins(which as I said in the other thread is bad design in my opinion anyway that Smiteadins exist).

Honestly thinking back I can’t really say that I feel like hit recovery was a major part of my deaths.

In action games I tend to play a very aggressive very mobile playstyle so logically it SHOULD greatly affect me because anything that hampers my mobility tends to leave me in a world of trouble, but the reality is that most of my characters also boasted high enough HP pools that very few mobs in the game had any real chance of staggering me.

but even without stagger you could still have enemies able to lock you down with slows/roots. You could take a note from PoE and include an effect that deals damage to the player when using mobility skills.

Running out of resource and not being able to use your mobility skill to escape should also be a very real problem, which largely isn’t in Diablo 2 because potion spam is broken.

The thing here is that I don’t subscribe to the idea that Diablo 4’s only options are to copy Diablo 2 or copy Diablo 3.

So I’m not saying take Diablo 2, remove hit recovery, and call it a day. They should be able to come up with other means to lock down and kill the player. Hopefully ones less annoying than not being able to do anything.

Which makes if I can find that many ways to die in Diablo 2 without hit recovery kind of a moot point here.

I’m already on record saying Diablo 2 is an easy game anyway, with or without hit recovery.

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I don’t play Diablo 3. Any time I try I get bored within a hour or two. Nice attempt at an ad hominem though =P

and yeah, I don’t like it. I was rather open about that. You’ll also always seek an argument for it because you do like it.

My point has been that with a little creative thinking they can come up with other mechanics to threaten the player without needing to resort to a mechanic that constantly takes control away from the player.

Or ends up like Diablo 2 where it’s functionally ignorable in like 95% of situations.

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Please cyo, list the ways you died in diablo 2 where hit recovery was not the full reason, or related to your death.

You list things like being swarmed which is bc you got hit recovered and you could not run through the monster to safety even in the corridor.

There’s only ONE way i can think of, spike (and spike dot) damage where you got hit out of the blue w/o being hit recovered first. It happens not often.

All other deaths. hit recovery is why or heavily mattered.
Prove this wrong, list, please, go.

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Yeah, I do like it and i prefer it as being in the game rather than not being in the game because its a core mechanic I enjoyed since the start of the series.
I really tried to enjoy D3 mechanics but they never gave me the though of “man, these mechanics are awesome, I enjoy them more than D1/D2”.
After half a year of gameplay of RoS I just quit the game.

Seems weird then, your early argument long ago in another topic on how long it takes to reach Endgame and 300-400 being low paragon means that you just read the information in the forums from another source and you just believed it?
Or maybe you just got powerleveled, who knows.

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Honestly high burst was probably the worst. I can remember a few of my earlier characters racking up some deaths against Diablo with his lightning attack doing really high damage and that he can root you with bone prison.

As I didn’t spend a lot of time crafting rejuv potions I could also sometimes get caught off guard by a mana burn at an opportune moment. There would be a second or two where I would be without my mobility skills while I was waiting for my mana regen to kick in.

Which I feel I need to stress the point: Even if I was caught in the middle of a mob, I was not being staggered because I had too much HP for most things to stagger me.

I also feel I need to reiterate: Diablo 4 is allowed to do things differently from both Diablo 2 and 3. It can introduce new mechanics to replace what stagger is doing, but doing it in a way that isn’t as unfun to deal with.

and to reiterate a third point: I’m not saying all CC is bad, just tying it to basically every enemy’s basic attack is.

I’d probably need the thread for context but I might have figured it was low paragon because I believe I’m just above 400 and I’ve not put many hours into the game.

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34

Yea thanks for reply
sounds like 2 concrete reasons that are effectively ways to die in D2 without hit recovery being the factor.

1, randomly getting hit by spike w/o being hit recovered, which barely happens lets be honest but its a like once in a while thing, certainly not how a game’s primary damage should be dealt by enemies random dolls exploding and no attacks and such.

  1. mana burn, but the reason you could not walk away is bc you were being hit recovered when swarmed, mana full, or mana empty so its not a reason.

So
2. overgearing the content where your HP is idk 2k, 3k, 6k, 8k, whatever. Sure if you have that much HP due to ruenwords like BO sticks and such unless you are a barb or a barb in your party you can last a lot longer in combat where hit recovery is beat down by super high HP. But you still could die and if you did, like wiating a minute in combat, it would be due to hit recovery not letting you TP to town or walk away to friends or get away from the damage.

So, random spike like dolls where you did not get hit first, runwords (or BO barb) spiking your HP so high that hit recovery doesnt matter.

Thats it.
Everything else, so like 99 pt 9 percent of the game, deaths happen due to hit recovery. Its a great list of 2 things so far.

So, you still think hit recovery is trash and a compromise is the way?
or can’t you see hit recovery is not trash and it’s very good for combat since you obviously played around hit recovery without realizing it years ago when you D2’d

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Again, no I was not. You really need to stop trying to insist my gameplay was different from what I’m telling you it was.

The inability to escape was the problem which was a direct result of not having enough mana to cast the spell.

I was not being staggered.

First of all you don’t need high end gear to have HP high enough to negate stagger on the majority of enemies.

Secondly the reason why HP works is because you will not be staggered if the enemy does less than 8.33% of your max HP in damage to you in a single hit.

So there is no “but you still wont be able to walk away because of hit recovery”. Hit recovery stops mattering because you are no longer being staggered by getting hit.

There are a few enemies that can stun and ignore your max HP, but they’re not common enough to make up the majority of deaths or be a major factor that is constantly being played around.

Yes because I’m aware of how the mechanic works and how much of an impact it actually had on my gameplay.

I’m not trying to gaslight somebody by telling them how their own gameplay went down.

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36

Someone call the cops. I just witnessed a murder. I will add that I never paid attention to hit recovery/stuns/stagger. Sure it would happen, and I would die or push on. At higher levels I don’t recall it happening much. My deatha were all a result if me taking in too much at one time trying to be too aggressive. But typically potiin spam and a portal usually saved my day.

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Lol this one’s good. The “D2 didnt do that right” fanclub comin in hot today.

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Putting words in people’s mouths I see. Never claimed such a thing. However, you were the one trying to say the other postes claims weren’t how it was.

39

Despite the way some people act around here, it’s perfectly valid to say Diablo 2 didn’t do something right.

As great a game as it is, Diablo 2 is not flawless.

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Absolutely, its not ok to constantly shoot down things that diablo did right with tons of thought energy and off work time put into it.

There’s 2 on here that do that, all the time, bc they like 3 over 2 and get enjoyment over shooting down 2. Its totally obvious and rude because they don’t provide examples supporting their d2 put downs.

Its also personal bc they know i like 2 way better so if i say “this is that way” they will say “nope, and i wont say why in detail” bc they just want to disagree with me.

Cyo, i have ppl who disagree w me my posts, regularly, so, its part of life if i could block their unexample containing posts i would. and them. they dont contribute anything constructive just shoot downs. its disrespectful to long, hard worded posts, like this whole thread. all they have to do is chime in and shoot down w/o examples bc they know i like 2 and they don’t like me / 2.