Forcing people to play your way

[Lumpus-1803]

@ShadowAegis-1537

That is what you don’t understand, the ones that don’t want ploot in multiplayer just don’t want it to exist at all period. Most don’t want it because it already exists in single player or multiplayer private groups.

Ploot does not exist anywhere in the Diablo 2 world. You having a verbal agreement with friends or having access to all the drop in a solo game is not ploot.

The whole point of ploot is for some with disabilities, bad internet, old computers, etc. people to not have to only play with friends or solo.

@ShadowAegis-1537

Maybe with the type you would agree to, but not other types that I have seen suggested outside of yours.

I don’t know of any other kind of ploot other than: Proximity and participation qualifies a player to a roll for drops. Allocated loot will become FFA loot after a few seconds or once picked up and dropped.

@ShadowAegis-1537

Which means that they don’t want it to exist period. Because it already exists but you and others don’t want to use the tools that you are already given to get it. No, instead put it in public games as well. Where it is everywhere instead of what I mentioned.

No dude… It means plooters think a person should be able to see the Mona Lisa on their phone, online, in a reproduction, etc. A FFA person thinks the only way you should be able to see the Mona Lisa is in person.

@ShadowAegis-1537

Oh it is debunked even though there is no true acceptable definition of remaster to go by. It is according to each player. Sorry but that is what I won’t go by. I go by VV/Blizz’s definition and I still say it is a remaster.

It’s debunked because there is no fixed definition. The excuse of “it’s a remaster not a remake” is not an excuse.

[blash-1917]

@RocknRolla-11718

The Reason Why We Still Fight.

Quick! Let’s create a thousand spam threads on it!

[RocknRolla-11718]

@blash-1917

Quick! Let’s create a thousand spam threads on it!

THE WORD MUST SWEEP THROUGH THESE UNHOLY LANDS! WE SHALL NOT FALTER TODAY, WE SHALL NOT FALTER EVER!

[ShadowAegis-1537]

@Shadout-2849

Sure it would. Pretty much everyone here are suggesting the same system.

But fair enough, if you are saying you are only against some imagined ploot system, while the one everyone want, are fine, then we agree.

I don’t care what type is the most suggested. The fact remains there are other types. Some would no doubt be horrible and others might not be as bad.

@Shadout-2849

No, but it means you can agree with it. You were questioning why people would do such a thing, remember?

There have been those times when I have understood why someone wants something. But if I knew that I wouldn’t use the suggestion then I would tell them just that. Ploot is just one of those times. I am willing to play the game as it is designed and hopefully will remain that way.

@Shadout-2849

VV has made no attempt to define what a remaster means.
They have definitely expressed a will to make drastic changes to the game however.

I am sure that what they have already done with D2R has done just that. That is unless you are like a computer and need to be told word for word. Where VV’s actions cannot speak volumes.

@Lumpus-1803

Ploot does not exist anywhere in the Diablo 2 world. You having a verbal agreement with friends or having access to all the drop in a solo game is not ploot.

What are you saying that if you play with others in a game and personally agree to how the loot is to be shared. Where if you are wanting a good base sword and shield for spirit and the group says that if one drops you will get it. Whether they let you pick it up or not they still have agreed with you that those items are yours. A form of personal loot by personally agreeing. A mutual agreement of how the loot is to be shared is still personal because all of personally agreed with it.

When you are playing solo no one can come along and steal it.

@Lumpus-1803

The whole point of ploot is for some with disabilities, bad internet, old computers, etc. people to not have to only play with friends or solo.

Look since mf solo is the best way to get gear. Multiplayer is the best for experience then why else have personal loot other than wanting it to be a foot in the door where multiplayer would be hands down the best way to get experience and loot.

@Lumpus-1803

I don’t know of any other kind of ploot other than: Proximity and participation qualifies a player to a roll for drops. Allocated loot will become FFA loot after a few seconds or once picked up and dropped.

Shadout’s is saying that all of the party’s loot would be randomly distributed to only one person. So you would have a 12.5% chance to get all of the party’s loot.

@Lumpus-1803

No dude… It means plooters think a person should be able to see the Mona Lisa on their phone, online, in a reproduction, etc. A FFA person thinks the only way you should be able to see the Mona Lisa is in person.

Ploot is vastly different than FFA loot and you know it. It would be more akin to having all copies of Mona Lisa in the same museum with the original. Where you have to see all of the copies to get to the original which is the only one you want to see. That is what those that only want FFA are complaining about.

@Lumpus-1803

It’s debunked because there is no fixed definition. The excuse of “it’s a remaster not a remake” is not an excuse.

No it isn’t debunked because the definition is set by VV for this remaster of D2.

[Shadout-2849]

@ShadowAegis-1537

I don’t care what type is the most suggested. The fact remains there are other types. Some would no doubt be horrible and others might not be as bad.

I feel like we are getting somewhere.
So how about you stop strawmanning based on those horrible versions and focus back on reality and the good versions.
But as you said, you don’t actually care. Trolls rarely do.

@ShadowAegis-1537

There have been those times when I have understood why someone wants something.

I’m impressed.

@ShadowAegis-1537

But if I knew that I wouldn’t use the suggestion then I would tell them just that.

Which the other person you were “arguing” with did…

@ShadowAegis-1537

Where VV’s actions cannot speak volumes.

I was literally saying that their actions and words speak volumes.

@ShadowAegis-1537

then why else have personal loot other than wanting it to be a foot in the door where multiplayer would be hands down the best way to get experience and loot.

Because not everything is about efficiency?
People might enjoy something even if they could get more gear playing solo.
I know I know, talking about enjoyment doesn’t really belong in a video game discussion…

@ShadowAegis-1537

Ploot is vastly different than FFA loot and you know it.

No. They are very very similar.

[mouser-1307]

@Shadout-2849

I feel like we are getting somewhere.
So how about you stop strawmanning based on those horrible versions and focus back on reality and the good versions.

But it’s not strawmanning. If Blizzard decides to implement Ploot, the most likely scenario is for them to do what they have already done:

Eight people kill a boss that drops five items, everyone gets five items.

The fact that people on this forum are using a narrow definition of Ploot doesn’t change that Ploot is a wide topic and most of the people who want it want instanced loot.

The best way to keep instanced loot out of the game is stop the Ploot train right at the start.

[Lumpus-1803]

@ShadowAegis-1537

I don’t care what type is the most suggested. The fact remains there are other types. Some would no doubt be horrible and others might not be as bad.

You obviously care or you won’t be constantly replying.

Wouldn’t it serve you better to speak out against the forms of ploot that suck and back the forms of ploot being suggested that will have no effect on your gameplay? Arguing against all because there’s a few you don’t like isn’t the way.

@ShadowAegis-1537

I am willing to play the game as it is designed and hopefully will remain that way.

You’re willing to play D2 the way it was designed or D2R? Because they are already very different.

@ShadowAegis-1537

I am sure that what they have already done with D2R has done just that. That is unless you are like a computer and need to be told word for word. Where VV’s actions cannot speak volumes.

If VV was done making changes they would have released the game by now and wouldn’t be open to further discussions about change. They haven’t released the game and are open to further discussions.

@ShadowAegis-1537

What are you saying that if you play with others in a game and personally agree to how the loot is to be shared. Where if you are wanting a good base sword and shield for spirit and the group says that if one drops you will get it. Whether they let you pick it up or not they still have agreed with you that those items are yours. A form of personal loot by personally agreeing. A mutual agreement of how the loot is to be shared is still personal because all of personally agreed with it.

Sorry, but this example is one step shy if pute ignorance. You are describing FFA loot with an agreement between people, not ploot. You are assuming someone always had 7 other people around all the time who all agree on the same loot distribution.

@ShadowAegis-1537

When you are playing solo no one can come along and steal it.

Then the same goes for FFA. When you’re solo you can FFA loot all day long. See how idiotic that is?

@ShadowAegis-1537

Look since mf solo is the best way to get gear. Multiplayer is the best for experience then why else have personal loot other than wanting it to be a foot in the door where multiplayer would be hands down the best way to get experience and loot.

This argument has already fallen on itself. If multiplayer isn’t good for finding loot then why fight ploot?

I’ve already explained this to you more than once. Some people, like a disabled person or someone playing in a remote region with slow internet, like to socialize in games. They need ploot to both socialize and have a chance at loot.

@ShadowAegis-1537

Shadout’s is saying that all of the party’s loot would be randomly distributed to only one person. So you would have a 12.5% chance to get all of the party’s loot.

I’m guessing you read Shadouts posts about as good as you read mine, which is awful. He was giving the mathematical probability of getting a drop if all 8 people assisted in the fight and were within range to receive a roll. Yes, this turns out to be around 12%.

@ShadowAegis-1537

Ploot is vastly different than FFA loot and you know it. It would be more akin to having all copies of Mona Lisa in the same museum with the original. Where you have to see all of the copies to get to the original which is the only one you want to see. That is what those that only want FFA are complaining about.

No one is asking you to play ploot any more than a museum would ask you to look at fake copies of the Mona Lisa… so no, your example is incorrect.

And ploot isn’t vastly different. All drops are FFA after a few seconds of not being picked up by the person who won the roll. Ploot just gives a player priority for a few seconds to pick up the loot.

@ShadowAegis-1537

No it isn’t debunked because the definition is set by VV for this remaster of D2.

And what definition is that? Since they’ve deviated from their original mission statement so much already, are you going off what they said or what they did?

@mouser-1307

Eight people kill a boss that drops five items, everyone gets five items.

Increased drop rates have nothing to do with ploot. Increased drop rates can occur without ever implementing ploot. One has nothing to do with the other.

Your argument against ploot is that they might to something else that isn’t ploot.

[swagman-1243]

@mouser-1307

Eight people kill a boss that drops five items, everyone gets five items.

That is a categorical misrepresentation of almost every pLoot post I’ve read. Most say the exact opposite.

Personally, I don’t care about pLoot, but at least represent that position carefully, before you attack it.

There are many, many varieties of pLoot - dealing with them with a simple waive of the hand isn’t adding a thing to this discussion. Embrace the nuance of the situation, then deal with that.

[mouser-1307]

@swagman-1243

That is a categorical misrepresentation of almost every pLoot post I’ve read. Most say the exact opposite.

Maybe here. But the posts by people I’ve seen on YT vids, and reddit threads, show a lot of people who want instanced loot. Add to that all the people coming from D3.

Yes, there are many varieties of Ploot. Rather than assume the best case, I find it more prudent to assume the worst.

The game is not broken, the loot system works. This is not something that needs to be changed in the name of ‘accessibility’.

[LocknLoad-1624]

@swagman-1243

@mouser-1307

Eight people kill a boss that drops five items, everyone gets five items.

That is a categorical misrepresentation of almost every pLoot post I’ve read. Most say the exact opposite.

Personally, I don’t care about pLoot, but at least represent that position carefully, before you attack it.

Firstly, if Blizzard would add it, it probably wouldn’t be what
people are asking for…eg, Brawling in D3.
Secondly my good man, for a person who doesn’t care about Ploot,
you are posting a lot on this subject.

[swagman-1243]

@mouser-1307

But the posts by people I’ve seen on YT vids, and reddit threads

The more I go to places like that, the less I go to places like that… Seriously, filled with all kinds of poseurs who know nothing more about D2 than I do, but are somehow trying to monetize it into a side hustle. Why anyone would use them as an appeal to authority baffles me.

@mouser-1307

The game is not broken, the loot system works.

I agree it’s not broken, but I do think it could be a bit more fair. A 2 second “last hitter” allocation, followed by FFA would be a equitable compromise I could live with - especially if it makes these posts stop.

Would also let carriers have a chance at the loot they generate and keep leeches from grabbing drops while the carrier continues to fight monster to keep the leeches alive…

@LocknLoad-1624

Secondly my good man, for a person who doesn’t care about Ploot,
you are posting a lot on this subject.

Trying to help facilitate a friendly discussion to keep the heat down. I’m convinced that D2R cannot afford to alienate a single potential buyer/player - if we want the suits at Blizz to notice the game is worthy of patching to the extent it most-certainly will require.

Too often these forums devolve to the point where someone tells someone else to “play something else.” My great fear is that potential players will actually follow that advice. And in this scenario, no one wins, especially D2R.

[LocknLoad-1624]

@swagman-1243

I’m convinced that D2R cannot afford to alienate a single potential buyer/player - if we want the suits at Blizz to notice the game is worthy of patching to the extent it most-certainly will require.

Not really sure how that will work out to be honest.
I have a feeling there was a lot of tourists who bought
this game, that will bail after they see the length of
the grind for stuff.

[swagman-1243]

@LocknLoad-1624

Not really sure how that will work out to be honest.

Blizz will have already set out expectations for D2R. They’ll track many data, but the 2 biggies are sales (obviously) and player retention (mean hours per week/account, etc.).

They’ll have also set goals for these numbers. Many companies (including those I’ve worked at) use something along a 5 tiered scale: greatly exceeds (goal), exceeds, meets, underperforms, greatly underperforms.

The amount of money they invest in supporting D2R will depend entirely where the data point on this scale. If it meets the goals Blizz has set, we can expect modest patching (fixing bugs that cause crashes, and a few more bugs that aren’t so severe. Might be a few minor “adjustments” of the low-hanging fruit variety).

If these data underperform, expect only crash bugs to patch. And if they seriously underperform, we’ll learn to live with D2R as is, just as we do with D2 1.14.

Our great hope is that the title both exceeds expectations in primarily sales, but player retention is critical if we want improvements after baseline (launch) version. If the game sales well, but players wander off, Blizz won’t spend much money maintaining the game. They’ll see it as a waste of money.

So, getting D2R patched beyond the launch version will necessarily require us to retain as many players as possible. We all need to do what we can to support this. To encourage players to stay by creating the most-supportive community we can. Think Guilds, etc., to involve and even engage players for as long as possible.

We’ll only see new content and other serious enhancements if the sales/retention numbers greatly exceed Blizz expectations.

In the end, For Blizz the bottom line is the bottom line. Due to all the pending litigation, they’re most likely in a “defensive” budget outlook, which means they’ll be less-inclined to take on risk right now. Remember, all O&M support (like patching, updating, etc.) comes off the top.

So, the picture for D2R might be a bit bleaker than it would normally - unless it blows the doors out on sales and retention. And this is why we need every single potential player we can possible get to both buy, and stay awhile and play.

[mouser-1307]

@swagman-1243

The more I go to places like that, the less I go to places like that… Seriously, filled with all kinds of poseurs who know nothing more about D2 than I do, but are somehow trying to monetize it into a side hustle. Why anyone would use them as an appeal to authority baffles me.

Do you see Rod or any other devs posting on the official forums?

What people in those places want probably matters a lot more than what people on these official forums want, as that’s where Acti-Blizz tends to gather info from.

[swagman-1243]

@mouser-1307

What people in those places want probably matters a lot more than what people on these official forums want, as that’s where Acti-Blizz tends to gather info from.

I can see that. Doesn’t mean I have to like it, or believe watching people with a financial incentive influence the game more than people who simply want to play for fun. We might have different ideas on what constitute fun, and we buy a hell of a lot more copies than a few lame streamers.

[Malpka-2585]

@Shadout-2849

@Malpka-2585

As long as players count scale xp same in both systems it doesn’t matter what loot system it is.

Looting will be slower, for anyone who want to pick up something the winner of an item didn’t want.

That is only true early on later pretty much everyone wants the same things.

@Shadout-2849

This is why Blizzard should make a 3-6 months test ladder with Ploot toggle. So we could see all the actual effects it might have, instead of only assuming.

Finally someone is making sense, if they release and then polish the game first then I actually have nothing against adding another realm, but again polishing it comes first.

@Orrion-1999

You have to win the /random 1-8 first. Which, as I said, will eventually happen… but you’re eventually going to get loot in FFA, too.

Again then why do you need ploot??

@blash-1917

With most efficient you mean slower and with less loot?

Slower look to top of the post and how on guaranteed loot means less loot??

@Shadout-2849

Not if his team is slowed down by Ploot.

Again see top.

@Lumpus-1803

No one is telling you to play ploot games. If the FFA people are correct that most people want FFA loot, why would you join a ploot game? If you can make your own FFA multiplayer game, why join a ploot game?

If this is most efficient mode then I actually don’t have much choice do I?

@Lumpus-1803

If increased drop rates are a fear, ploot doesn’t have to become part of the game for that to happen. If the FFA people leech all the loot every time, do you think these same people might ask for increased drop rates?

Again ploot is better leeching environment.

@Lumpus-1803

This is little more than a baseless assumption of what you think people will want. These same people will see one drop (if they are lucky to see it before it’s sucked up) and still think the same thing… one drop. Ploot has nothing to do with this scenario.

Baseless assumption is claiming that change you want is good for the game.

@Lumpus-1803

It isn’t a argument because no one is asking anyone to play games with ploot. If your against ploot, questions like proximity or debuffs aren’t an issue.

So you don’t like my argument and tell me that it is not my business?

@Lumpus-1803

We are guaranteed a chance every time something drops, even with FFA.

again why do you need ploot then?

[Lumpus-1803]

@Malpka-2585

If this is most efficient mode then I actually don’t have much choice do I?

Sure you do, play FFA. Mathematically, ploot will be as efficient as FFA in multiplayer games and solo MF games will still most likely be the best way to farm loot. Realistically, nothing will change for old school players.

@Malpka-2585

Again ploot is better leeching environment.

Again, not based on any sort of fact. You saying it “again” doesn’t make it any more true than the first time you said it… and if you don’t like it, don’t play ploot games and your problems are solved.

@Malpka-2585

Baseless assumption is claiming that change you want is good for the game.

Baseless assumption is claiming that change is needed for some people is something I want for myself. It’s good for the game because it will give people who don’t like FFA loot an alternative.

@Malpka-2585

So you don’t like my argument and tell me that it is not my business?

Me liking your your argument isn’t the issue. Your argument having no merit is the issue.

@Malpka-2585

again why do you need ploot then?

Again, I do not. People with disabilities, inherently bad internet, older computer, etc. need it.
This has been explained to you many times yet you keep asking and I keep giving you the same valid reasons. You have yet give one solid reason against giving people an option that has zero effect on your gaming experience.

[Inspireone-2573]

@Lumpus-1803

People with disabilities, inherently bad internet, older computer

and here we see it once again…these ppl would also like blizz to pay better computer’s and internet for them…and if ur having so much disabilities that u cannot handle something then u should not do it at all! and non of these ain’t reason to get garbage called ploot to D2R

[MicroRNA-1507]

@Inspireone-2573

if ur having so much disabilities that u cannot handle something then u should not do it at all!

To illustrate your logical fallacy:

There are 7%-10% of males who are colorblind. Why not introduce a colorblind mode (which Blizzard did in D2R) that make it easier for them to visualize and collect items ?

[swagman-1243]

@Inspireone-2573

if ur having so much disabilities that u cannot handle something then u should not do it at all!

Those are the only 2 options??? Your compassion is astounding. Many home-bound people find a great deal of comfort and solace spending time in gaming. Why should they opt out and doze in front of a television just because they’re not as capable as others? Ugh.

More to the point - in a “global” realm, with players across the world in a single game space, and every Necro in the world popping 40 summons, grabbing loot might be quite the erratic adventure. Perhaps the game creator has a tremendous advantage, based on server load balancing is managed. This will creating a gaming environment where certain players are unfairly disadvantaged in the loot grab.

And pLoot isn’t garbage. It’s a design criterion, in various incarnations, used in almost every APRG in the past 10 years, even longer. Fair minds can disagree as to its role in D2R, but telling anyone disagreeing with you their thought are garbage won’t persuade a single soul…