I get what you are saying, but going to nitpick a little bit and say it is not that atypical to have slightly different rules in a sport, for different competitions.
For football (soccer for people over there) you have the ability for VAR to overrule the referee, in some competitions, but not others. For handball (and also football), you have different rules on how many substitutes you can use. Also the penalty for getting a red card can differ between different tournaments.
During the Olympics I watched some sailing competitions, and they had some quite different rules there than they usually would (causing confusion among participants). Sometimes it is to make the sports more watchable for something like the Olympics, other times is for increased fairness (VAR etc).
Also, lots of sport change their rules over time. Football is still Football, but the rules have changes multiple times over the last decades.
That may be correct. But that doesn’t change the fact that forexample soccer has a set pair of rules. That some competitions alter them might be so, but that doesn’t mean the sport by definition doesn’t have one set of rules.
That may also be true, I’m not really into sports. My point was you can’t say that a sport has different rules because roles in the sport have different rules. The rules of the roles are defined within the rules of the sport.
The sport is the video game
The roles are the roles/classes
The players are the players
Every player has to play by the rules of the roles, every role has to play by the rules of the game/sport.
Exactly. Because the rules of the sport are defined. Me and my mates can play soccer and change up the rules to joke around and have fun, but that doesn’t change the official rules of the sport.
In the context of the game it translates to the game itself being the official rules, and the game mode(and/or mod) of the game being the “competition”(in this context) where rules can be altered.
No, different league, different rules. All players within the same league has the same rules.
If Ploot was added, all players would still have the same rules, since Ploot would now be part of those rules, for everyone.
You can have different elements of a sport, with different rules too.
I mean, in soccer, the rules for normal play is clearly different from a penalty shoot-out.
Or in decathlon, you very clearly have completely different events as part of one overall competition.
Or for more separated systems; in tennis, rules for doubles are slightly different from rules in singles, and the two cant mix (akin to having a Original 1.14 and a Change server for example).
Yes, that would be like changing the official rules of the sport. Which is possible, but i don’t agree with it in this context personally.
That is true, but that is a-side from the main sport. A penalty shoot-out are a different game mode from the main sport.
Might be true, i have no clue about tennis. Having a different server for changes would translate to having a different league in American football. (from what i collected googling really quickly)
True. But like i have mentioned in many threads, i still disagree with Ploot though. It’s not the end of the world for me if it becomes an optional solution without altering drop rates, but i still don’t agree with it with the following reasoning.
Removes the reason to be efficient and up in the fights, aswell as the tension and excitement trying to compete for loot. With allocated loot you don’t have to be in the frontlines, being the one doing the damage and pushing the line. You can just pick up your loot without doing as much effort. With FFA, the player closest to the kill will have the highest chance to pick up the item, which to me is more fair. To me, allocated loot promotes inactivity and lazyness, which goes against the Diablo 2 way.
I dont think FFA promotes leeching, because the player doing the killing is the player closest to the killing, and will therefore have the highest chance to pick up the loot, compared to the leecher, who usually stays behind out of dangers way. If the “leecher” is closer to the mobs in question , i wouldn’t categorize him as a leecher, since he is participating in battle.
Doesn’t affect me if it’s optional and doesn’t alter drop rates, but still don’t agree with having a loot solution that promotes inactivity and lazyness.
People are already lazy in baal runs, where they stand in a safe zone out of harms way, while others kill the waves. With allocated loot, those lazy people would be rewarded.
I could honestly care less about pLoot, FFA, et al, as I’m gonna play the hell out of D2R no matter what’s under the hood. But, I do appreciate this kind of fair discussion about the merits of the potential change.
Most people who want to keep D2R without breathing room between it and D2 (I hate the term “purist” but understand why it’s used. I prefer “D2 traditionalists”) seem to add way too much heat to their comments. It’s completely unneeded, and even less persuasive.
Anyways, just wanted to say “Thanks” for helping improve the forum discussions.
I did not see your soccer statement, which is on me unless you edited it in after. I don’t know soccer, but at least you recognized the the goal keep needed a separate set of rules, acknowledging that there isn’t one ruleset for all. I’m sure there are different rule sets for different leagues.
You would be wrong. Pop Warner is not the same rule set as junior school sports which are not the same rules as college which are not the same rules for the NFL. Every American sport has a different set of rules from the beginning to the pro level.
Even within those rules, offense and defense have separate sets of rules.
As dumb as this argument is, it only goes to prove that one ruleset for everyone is not really used anywhere.
Having a realistic understanding that 99% of developers are garbage at design is not self loathing. You are projecting more meaning than was intended. But project away.
For everyone else’s benefit, the Original quote was “Developers are garbage at design”. People that omit context to score easy points are garbage-esque and trollish. Reeks of a gen z that has zero experience but has it all figured out.
I am curious to know how many developers you have known personally.
I have known at least 200 on a personal level and worked with them very closely. I’ve also worked directly with designers, 2d artists, 3d modelers, animators, story boarders, project managers, etc.
It is very widely understood in my industry that developers have a unique skillset. And that is coding. Moving and manipulating data. It is very very rare to find a developer that can design. And if you find one, likely their strength in coding suffers because they’ve focussed less on coding.
I am qualified to paint in broad strokes here. The idea of painting in broad strokes offends some people but that doesnt mean its inappropriate. However, If you reread and do not omit context like has clearly already been done, you’ll see i did not say or imply “all developers”.
Yeah, the discussion between us spun off and can no longer be related to the subject of the thread.
But i still think you are wrong though, because to me, players don’t have different rules. Roles have different rules. The rules of the players are defined by the rules of the roles, which in turn are defined by the rules of the sport. Each individual player can’t have their own set of rules, that way the sport would become messy, and could never be competitive.
Trying to be open minded in my discussions. My mind can be changed, which it has, since i no longer are dead set against Ploot like i once was, but i still don’t like it. I like to discuss things I’m passionate about. Have a like.
It wouldn’t because you would still be able to play under the rules you want.
It’s no different than the NFL and CFL. It’s the same sport, but the rules are just a little different. A player can play in either league. They aren’t forced to play one ruleset.
8 people walk into a game. They decide to roll on every item that drops.
Anti-plooters say this shouldn’t be allowed. You can do it already, but they say creating a system that these players could use to streamline the way they want to play – that it shouldn’t be allowed. Makes no sense.
I get what you are saying, the difference to me with your example and ploot would be the people agree with eachother to equally share loot through rolls.
In a allocated loot system, in forexample baal runs, people can effectively leech by standing around on the right side of the room, being in range for drop and experience to be allocated, but not participate in the killing. That is not fair, in my opinion. The player who does the work should be the ones who get those drops.
Those two examples may sound similar, but the difference is, if you make a deal with someone to use said loot system, that is a choice you make based on the players you are in the game with. You wouldn’t make such an agreement if half the players in the game are inactive and leeching.
In a implemented allocation system, you don’t get to choose who comes into your forexample baalrun game. They can join, leech XP and get their free loot, and leave.
In a perfect world, where everyone would participate, this wouldn’t be a problem, but i can see it being a problem, because people already do it, just today, they don’t get loot, unless they stand in battle and participate.
I’m just happy it’s a civil discussion, which I also appreciate.
I guess what I was saying is the rules for football are all different, from the league to the difference between offense and defense to the individual players. There is no one set of rules that are used for “football”. There is rarely one set of rules regarding the totality of anything. There are almost always variations to chose from.
When you take a look at this topic or any other large topic related to ploot and then you look at “Frequent Posters” feature it’s like the same people posting over and over.
Hell bent on knocking down anyone whos opinion differs from theirs and then they say purists are crazy xD
I mean seriously… summarize it and you get 5-7 people forcing everyone else for ploot here.
That’s true but leeching is not a problem with this ploot system, it’s a problem with Diablo 2 itself. You can already leech very effectively. I can just stand there and do nothing and then run in and grab the loot as the boss dies. The difference would be my ability to then get all the good loot or only get one eighth of all the good loot. Having the option for this mode would be great.
So nothing changes with this dynamic at all; ploot should not be singled out as having a trait the game already has.
My example was specifically about the Throne Room before baal, it is harder for leechers to loot there without participating. On baal himself people can still leech on FFA, that is true. But they do have a chance of dying while trying to pickup said loot, if you miscalculate when baal is going to die, because people often slow down dps before he dies to get ready for the pinjata to crack open, or if you get smacked by tentacles while leeching on the sidelines lol.
I’m a bit torn here. I could swear, the last few ladders I played (ending 2019), almost every Baal run I participated in (as a leech) were being run by bots. If the “new and improved” battle.net 2.0 actually prevents this, Baal runs might be a LOT harder to find, no?
Have a like.
