You can also do that in personal loot games. FFA games does not promote interacting with others more in a positive manner than personal loot. If anything, it is worse on average.
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Exactly this.
FFA loot ensures that always those who click fastest (for whatever reason) will receive the majority of the loot.
It completely disjoins the looting game from what - in our (one side of this thread) perspective - should count: participation.
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I bought the pre order, how do I download the Beta?
Thanks!!!
Wrong thread.
Beta has not started yet (at least not officially). Most likely noone on this board (apart from blizzard staff) is in the beta yet.
Have some patience, you most likely will get an email once you get access to the beta. In any case, it will be hard to miss the news when the beta starts.
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My sense from debating this topic with others is that it is pro-FFA viewpoint is being predominantly expressed by players who think that they are elite and that they either carry the entire group or that they offer a carry service based on the premise that all good drops are theirs or at least most of the good drops.
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Beta has not yet been released. It likely will be released in August.
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My sense from debating this topic with others is that it is pro-Personal weak players feel that they either need to leach on the entire group or that they offer nothing based on the premise that all good drops are stolen otherwise.
I could look up quotes and stuff to paint a mental picture, but your continuous assumptions can fill in the blanks I suppose. Typed more but deleted as you really have just been parroting the same thing for months now and dismiss anything else as pro elite players wanting to abuse others, if that doesnāt work its pickit/hacks if that doesnāt work brevik said soā¦ alright done, but please only add one of my replies if something new or something not assumed by you comes up.
I agree.
And it is not that I would not acknowledge this group of people. There are enthusiasts who do carry runs and who do most of the work.
Still even them will sometimes not get all the drops they would like. While others who are not even remotely living up to said model are actually grabbing stuff.
The question is to come up with a system that:
- prevents ninja-looting (meaning players, who do not participate pick up a large portion of valuable items)
- rewards participation
FFA does not provide that because it rewards click-speed.
pLoot could provide that if the rules are sufficiently good.
The trade-off of having such a system is that some players would have to waive some of the games where they get all or almost all of the loot. And in return they would get a āfair shareā ā¢ of the loot in every game.
It would also as a sideeffect benefit the quality of their games because their teammates (who they claim to be potential leechers) would actually forced to participate if they want to partake in the looting game.
It would be so awesome to just agree that in a perfect world that would be the case and continue on to discuss on some of these rules that could approach that perfect world.
Why is getting a fair share leeching?
What do you define as leeching?
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That is your impression. Using that logic, why not let these āweak playersā have the option of personal loot for their enjoyment either at the level of game or character creation? Alternatively, do you need these weak players in FFA games so that you can get more drops?
Not everyone has to play hardcore. Why not make it so there are 2 loot modes. Mathematically, personal loot is harder than FFA loot to gear up, but this has already been explained.
This is incorrect. We are actually advocating not to even see 7/8 of all drops because we are passionate about fairness.
Again, we are advocating for an option not a replacement.
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Do you think constantly saying the same things, dismissing others game play styles, and adding commentary to every topic that slips a personal discussion in will help it arrive? If a mod is keeping track of this discussion its like 5 passionate people on either side spamming the topic and others randomly getting thoughts in and then being overwhelmed by parroted responses. Not really a convincing measurement.
Itās either in final stages right now or notā¦ spamming this discussion back and forth with opinions on how things could or should work out based on how you think the game could or should be played is meaningless but I canāt really stop you.
If you guys were to say add new ideas, or add different ways to implement or anything of substance to this it would be nice, otherwise people come in this topics and just see you guys going at it by rephrasing things already said to people you already said it to.
I dunno you do you, I try my best to stay outta this topic as it feels like being water boarded at this point but if it makes you feel like it will happen to believe or do what your doing then not much I will say will stop you.
We are not dismissing your play style. We want an option to be added to have a different playstyle that we consider more fair. You are dismissing our proposed playstyle.
Which is exactly the thing that you claim us to bother you with.
Nobody wants to remove your FFA loot mode.
Exactly. That is exactly what i just argued for in my last post.
Let us discuss the rules that would make pLoot work sufficiently.
And everytime we post such a rule, somebody comes in and says āi like FFA. pLoot is not needed.ā. Instead of arguing on the proposed rule and why it would or would not work, which would force us to come up with a new, improved rule.
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Wait - this discussion isnāt about whether making friends is possible in ploot or ffa. I was saying that sharing cooperatively happens in ffa when we meet people, obviously. No where was the claim made that āFFA games promote interacting with others more in a positive manner than personal loot.ā That isnāt even the criterion. Youāre changing the criterion, blahh - flashbacks to past debates
So what if some clans wonāt invite ānoobsā? So what if we group with people who are like us? Yeah, obviously. Thatās how making friends works - we become friends with people who are similar to us. Who we can easily relate with. What is the problem again? Maybe the usual Baal/CS run isnāt the best place to develop friendships, even though itās of course possible. Thereās a lot of game otherwise. Whatās your point? Do you think itās not possible to make a gaming friend or at least a partner who wont jack āyourā stuff in D2? Maybe you have to work on your mentality, then. Itās not only possible, itās not that hard. Itāll be much easier in D2R with all these older casuals coming back with better communication skills than when they were teens. I think most develop better communication skills, at leastā¦
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Exactly.
My point is that even in the usual Baal/CS run you should get your fair share of loot.
Not only in games with like-minded people that you can relate with.
For course it is possible. Alot of things are possible.
But we are not suggesting a system that works in a possible case, we suggest a system that works in most possible cases.
And again - instead of talking about the actual rules of the system - we are talking about this āi like FFA, hence you cannot have anything elseā argument. It is really boring.
Well, we can all work on ourselves. But - as with botters - it is a high goal to set your hopes on the community getting more friendly and communicative.
Truth is that many communities can be quiet toxic.
Another benefit of pLoot would be to actually take out a potential factor of that toxicity. Because it might creat a feeling of fairness, where before there was āstealingā, āninjaingā and āleechingā.
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Ah, well thatās a deep philosophical difference with the design of the game. You think you should have a certain amount of loot even with strangers. Thatās not how this game is made. So you want pure instanced loot. OK. Thatās not Diablo 2, sorry. But many other games are like that. And the answer for you is to try to find some friendly people - there will be many in D2R - and cooperate with them. Good luck!
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Another answer would be to suggest pLoot.
You say you dont need it. Noted. Which does not mean that it should not be part of the game.
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This conversation is focused on D2R that is not a 1:1 phenocopy of D2. D2 did not have auto-gold pickup. In D2R, it is an option. That is one of the three things that Brevik said he would change in D2 if he could. Should we get rid of this in D2R since D2 did not have that option?
In D2, the game did not support 4K screens because the technology was not there. In D2R, we have that option to update the graphics that are out of date due to being built on >20 year old technology.
In D2, the game used 4:3 screen dimensions because that was the technology at the time. D2R now supports ultra-wide monitors (32:9), because technology has advanced. This affects both PvM, PvP, and how monsters aggro. Should we get rid of this in D2R since D2 was based on 4:3?
In D2, there is no shared stash. Shared stashes have become the gold standard in this video game genre and has been introduced in D2R. Should we get rid of this in D2R since it was not in D2?
D2 had FFA loot, since personal/instanced loot was not invented at the time. It was not the fact that the developers felt that FFA loot was better. Moreover just like auto-gold pickup, Brevik has said repeatedly that he would change D2 to personal loot if he could go back in time. As we all know, instanced/personal loot is now the gold standard in this video game genre.
Given these examples, it is reasonable to suggest the addition of optional personal loot given that D2R has been updated for modern gamers and technological advances with other gameplay changes due to D2 being 20 years old.
For anyone who wants to play D2 exactly as is that option remains. D2R is a newer version of D2 that incorporates changes.
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Yāknow what? Iāll bite. Letās start over. You lay it out - or quote yourself doing so - and say why personal loot is worse. Straight out, no bullsh!t, no insults, no clownfaces, letās go.
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and by everyone who joins those runs as wellā¦ there are no losers in service runsā¦ thats what u dont understand.
yes u wont get the best dropsā¦ but you ARE getting levelsā¦ on top of that you are also getting drops you could NOT even obtain playing alone because you arenāt strong enough to even kill these mobs that could drop them.
the āleftoverā drops in service runs are better than the drops any player in those runs could farm on that character. by joining a service runā¦ you ARE NOT getting āworse dropsā
your getting BETTER dropsā¦ because the people who are doing service runs arnāt picking up anything but the best of the bestā¦ so yeah you not going to get that perfect viperā¦ but you WILL prob get a a low viper, or a low ED jalals later on in ladder, or a ton of other good items they drop in the runs that the runner just doesnāt want.
and ALL of these drops "including the 0.01% that the runner picks " have an item lvl of 80 and are much better than the lvl 40 or 55 who is in said service run could farm.
this is the problemā¦ u are under some delusion that āwere taking items from youā were not.
we are giving you FREE exp and FREE items, in exchange for maybe grabbing 3or 4 GG or build specific drops every 50 runs.
and yet somehow that isnt good enough for you.
and u you think WE are the ones being greedy.
you think its fair to make us get 1/8th of the amount of drops just so u can have 1/8th of our chance at GG drops.
your idea would literally kill d2ā¦ who one would help anyone outā¦
im not going to join a game to help you level up if it means i get less drops than i would by playing aloneā¦ im not going to play with others if i get less drops than i would by playing alone.
you play in a GROUP if you want EXP.
NOT if u want drops.
this is literally how the game is codedā¦ group plays gives more exp but less overall drops per person
solo play gives less exp but more loot per person
right now we do service runs to get the best of both worlds.
you help people with exp and loot you dont need.
and give them exp they need and 99.99% of the loot they need
in return u get better exp and loot you do need
its a win-win situation
so tell meā¦ what freaking issue is so gamebreaking that you want to UTTERLY DESTROY this system?
because if i can pick up items. learn how to be nice and work with a teamā¦ dont be greedy.
LOOT DOES NOT BELONG TO YOU.
the onyl time loots belong to a person if it is a agreement between the player.
example areā¦
- a verbal agreement in gameā¦
- a service run agreement agreed to by joining.
- the unspoken agreement that if you are the only person who needs act boss quest you get dibs.
- its your forge
beyond thatā¦ ( and maybe 1-2 more im forgetting) NOTHING that drops is YOURS.
Service runs?
What the devil are service runs? I run baal runs myself. And in those games, i want the items to be equally shared.
What you are describing eerily sounds like a run where a bot does most of the work and people are just taking a tour.
And even if your argument would apply, why would these people, who all are getting better items now that they are playing together, not want to share said items fairly?
I will still try to salvage what can be used constructively from your post. Letās assume there is a run, where one player does all the work. What about a rule that if a player does 50% of the dmg to the boss also gets 50% of the loot? Wouldnt that already cover your case sufficiently?
And if a truely good item is amongst the rest of that loot, then it is simply bad luck. Just imagine one of the āleechersā ninja-looted it and you kicked him out of the party afterwards. (a new one joined in his place)
Who is this āWEā you are talking about? Why are you imagining that you are giving me any items? I do not even want āyourā items. I want the items that i play for in a game that i participate in.
Can you just step down from your elitist i-carry-the-entire-diablo-world-on-my-strong-shoulders horse for a second?
You said it yourself. The worse items are being left by the fast-clickers.
Why should i settle for scraps when i play normally in a game? Why would i not deserve a loot that can drop in any game only because a self-proclaimed service-player (whatever that service is) happens to claim all good loot?
Is it really so hard to see the card-shark pattern in your statement? Assuming that you get the analogy: have you ever heard of the word ācard sharkā being used in a positive way?
And what is the justification for the other ones not deserving items? Oh, right, their itemization. And how do they get good items? Clicking fast.
You see the problem?
And we are not taking the items from you either.
We want pLoot as an option, you can still play FFA mode.
Thanks. I did not notice. Last time i checked, we were being called leechers, so i wasnt aware that it was actually a win-win deal between us. Sounded differently last time i checked.
Even assuming that were to be true:
- what about the 3 or 4 GG items that a āleecherā picks from you? Wouldnt you want them as well?
- what about the 7 players who āleechā? Should they fight for their items or should they get a fair share, because they are all āleechersā, who do not deserve anything but scraps?
Yes, getting scraps from a player who does not respect anybody but service-players (and since there seems to be only 1 service player per game, that means literally everybody but himself) does not sound like a fair deal to me. Iād rather have an objective system to give me my fair share. As would anybody else, including the service player, since he also has a sense of what his fair share is (as you said 3-4 items per 50 runs).
Scrapping the cream and leaving the scraps for the rest sounds pretty greedy, yes.
See above, i suggested a rule that could be a solution to this āproblemā. Ofc iād love to hear your ideas about what would be a fair measure.
But even if we take 1/8. 6/8 * 50 are still 37-38 items. So you would get 37-38 items. Almost 10 times as many as you claimed to get in the ninja-system. So you get more than before.
How would that be the case? It is an option that anybody who wants to use it could pick. If it would be a bad option, then people would not use it. So either
people use it ā d2 would be alive or
people would not use it ā ffa system, which according to you is also alive
Nobody asked you to. You still get better drops in a multiplayer game, which is why you joined it in the first place, i assume.
And if pLoot would be a problem for you: disable it, play with other āservice-playersā. Problem solved.
Why? How do you know that? I know i want both, you know you want both. You even said that you want to take items and exp. So we both want the same.
More players increase magic find. It is also faster in the right group. Hence even more items.
If you distribute the group loot to only 1 person, who takes all good stuff and drops all scrap, then yes.
But if you got math, i would be happy to see it. Surely there are some numbers out there and you might even have a point here. Still numbers would be nice.
Nope. You are. Actually your post is the first time, i hear the word āservice runā in this thread. It might be something to consider, sure. But it is a wild assumption that everybody plays those runs. Some people truely want to play for themselves, you know?
For themselves as in āpulling their own weightā, ānot getting carriedā. And in those games ninja-looting is also a problem that we want to adress.
What if i play a java-zone and a titan drops. you take the titan. Why would i not deserve a chance for the titan?
I get loot you do not need. That is a difference.
It would still be, even with pLoot. Just with a different balance (ideally one that is backed by participation).
Speaking of which, you are aware that one of my main arguments is participation? You are aware that in your service run, the service player would be the main participating player? Meaning he deserves a bigger share of the loot by participation-rules?
The question is only how to calculate it.
Ninja-looters.
What if you cant pick up items? Then it doesnt help to not be greedy, to be nice and to work with a team. You still are forced to find someone who drops you scrap.
Not a nice situation, right?
- Never saw any of these verbal agreements apart from level-boosts. But maybe things changed.
- what are these service runs? Is this like some external service side? It still sounds alot like botting to me. Sorry, if i am wrong
- alright, that seems reasonable. It is just one drop though. Could still be included into pLoot as well btw.
- not sure what you mean about that. You mean āboostsā or whatever they are called right now for the price of the hellforge quest? That is a good point. I would consider those as quest-drops (belonging to the quest owner), who would then give them over to the boosting player as payment. So no need to involve pLoot here. FFA just saves you 1 step because the booster can just pick them up directly.
Also not the main part of diablo, if you ask me. Sure, it happens. But in comparison players play more runs, ubers, cows and normal story play. So covering hellforge would be nice, but isnt my primary concern.
From what you said above, loot basically belongs to the āservice playerā (whoever that is) and that he decides what scraps he drops for the rest.
You said how that agreement is set-up (external site, upon game-join, etc.)
those agreements sound alot like pLoot to me. Just not on a system-level.
You literally said, that you agree to them on game-join. Same as you would agree to pLoot on game join.
But the problem with your system is, that people still can violate those agreements by ninja-looting (remember, the problem we want to adress). And they quite often do (unless you have some outside organization such as a ābaal run discord communityā, which brings us again to the point that communities are a nice addition, but not every player has the time and mind to engage in them)
Fine. We can have FFA, pLoot and service-player-loot.
There you have your system embedded in the system. Sounds pretty good to me.
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ā¦ a service run is a run by a high lvl character for people to level upā¦
aka a chaos run by an actual person.
its a public run.
but its one person doing all the killing for the people who need gear and exp
its for the people who get grushed to hell act 4 and are between lvls 1 and roughly 60-79 ( they generally stop at around 80 because that that point they can clear stuff themselves and they no longer need a service to get exp or loot.
and yesā¦ its very similar to a botā¦ runā¦ except your playing with an actual person doing the runsā¦ not a botā¦ and that person is friendlyā¦ and helpful and lets you pick up most stuff.
its generally not as fast as a bot run, because people play their favorite pvm builds. and not just a hammerdin.
but people would rather talk to a person who knows a ton about the gameā¦ can help with buildsā¦ toss them stuff they might have lying around they havenāt been able to sell.
have someone make sure they are safe and clear their bodies if they dieā¦
generally any items worth more than an ist by mid season goes to the runnerā¦ but pretty much everything else they leave for grabsā¦ thats how i do them anyways.
i also might help a person with ancients, help them on a build, let them make the next game for diablo questā¦ give them waypoints if they need.
its an way to play the game and get the benefits of a bot run but with an actual person, who knows the game and is willing to be helpful.
THATS a service runā¦
if youāre not friendly and helpfulā¦ people would just join bot runsā¦ because theyāre fasterā¦
if you can kill stuff in hell act 5 you donāt join service runs because u donāt need help.
a service is is NOT a ārandom chaos gameā were everyone players helps and contributes equally. if you can kill stuff in the game its not a service runā¦ and generally if u join a service run with a character 80+ you would be politely yet forcefully asked to leaveā¦ as the runner can not realistically ask you to not take some gg item that drops if you are actively killing stuff. ( if they donāt choose to leave, the runner generally pms the other participants a password for the next game, ( or says it in the private chat channel for the runs) and just leaves himself and the other participant follow, leaving said person alone in game)
service runs are for the people who are in hell via grush ( or sometimes crush) but cant yet kill hell monsters, but like to get ilvl 85 loot from chaos and be in a friendly social setting where they can get exp items and chat to build idea and improvements.
because to be able to quickly and efficiently clear a place like chaos in an 8 player game as the only person contributing you are generally at max build on said characterā¦ and and you are generally not pick up items unless u need them for a specific other build or they are GG.
so chances are ā¦ yes unless those titans are ethā¦ you ARE going to get them unless the runner is currently building a zonā¦ and for w/e strange reason cant afford eth titansā¦ ( which would be very strange considering they are doing a service runā¦ which generally means they can afford most anything thatās not worth more than a HR.
oh and another thing runners like myself do in a service runā¦
say some GG item dropsā¦ lets say shako
i mean yeah i could stop the service run and try to make a new game or join some trade gameā¦ or i can sell it for cheaper to some person in my run who cant quite afford it and i can make a profit without ever having to stop what im doing.
as long as people are niceā¦ they are going to get stuff from my run.
while i do make about half of my freinds fro playing trhough on new charsā¦ i tend to make the other half just doing service runsā¦ helping people out,
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