Diablo 4 - Who want to hear more about PVP?

[naksiloth-1354]

PoE is PoE, Diablo 3 is Diablo 3. Diablo2 PvP still going and not consumed by power creep yet with a trading community to boost for supporting it.
Lessons to mind here are; not going too crazy on difficulty scale with power level progression, and incase you broke the ceiling on numbers, allow player to find an equal match via complex filters instead of casual matchmaking.

PvP can stay alive well enough before getting consumed by gradually progressing power creep up until the point of being an imbalanced mess and entice players to have fun. Although this only applies before some developer trying to re-invent the word “fun” on his own terms with 50000% increased skill specific damage items to allow players to move 3 steps at a yardstick.

For anyone who didn’t entirely get it yet. Having a PvP scene makes it easier for you to sell items and a broader access for faster availability. This will create a bond between PvP and trade communities again. After game turn to be an entirely PvE portion the drop rates will be tuned accordingly as always and trades will slow down if not removed yet.
How else you think people achieve their dream PvP build? How will they get items after getting beaten in a PvP match? Farming for thousands of hours for slaying bosses over and over again? That can be enjoyable for you but it’s not the point for them. It never was. Let people have fun instead of mocking them. You might even benefit from it.

[spacecadet13-6198]

Yep, PvP in D4 is certain to be totally awesome. Unless you like melee characters and/or builds.

[Matisos-2662]

Yeah i have to agree. The only way to include good and competitive PvP is to add exclusive PvP gear to keep balance.

[Kilometer-11340]

@Oblivion-1520

Well, just about any Diablo 3 build would be lethal in a pvp scenario (for example Hydras, Multishot, Wave of Light, etc.); the necromancer is no exception. Even in Pre-RoS most of the brawls I’ve been in or seen rarely lasted more a couple of seconds (this includes people kiting). That’s of course not to say that all of Diablo 2 duels were long skirmishes of any kind as some of them were brief as well. However the duration of a single Diablo 2 duel could range from a few seconds to a few minutes, dependent on the class/build matchup as well as the capabilities of the engaging players.

You just don’t get it, isn’t it? I am talking about the playstyle and ridiculous design wise. D3 Necromancer can kill people without aiming, all he have to do is walking around, and people died. Can D2 Necromancer do that?

@Oblivion-1520

Also the affix “can’t be frozen” wasn’t absolute as Holy Freeze was able to bypass it and still rendered players chilled. That said, I still expect stun (and blind) to work in pvp, albeit with a much lessened duration than compared to it used in pve.

Now the D4 Wizard’s Frost Bolt is Holy Freeze tier? Unless there is info about Holy Freeze in D4, I don’t see the point you bringing it up.

Players (Hero) get stunned with lesser duration is a thing since WC3. The only problem is the cooldown for crowd control. If it is PVE game, crowd control tends to have a lesser cooldown because no one cares about monsters being. If the game is PVP oriented, obviously the crowd control cooldown will be longer to prevent stun-lock or combo-wombo on the players.

@Oblivion-1520

The developers seem intended on slowing down the pacing of Diablo 4’s combat, which I agree with. However, it’s too early to say as we haven’t even seen the last two classes and there’s the chance that we’ll see the skill tree expanded. Also who’s to say that Diablo 4 pacing will remain slow, after all, Diablo 3 vanilla endgame combat pacing was a lot slower than Diablo 2 LoD endgame (Diablo 3 endgame combat pacing only started to speed up drastically after RoS).

There is no coincidence that D3 ROS and PoE combat pacing starting to speed up the moment they gave up on the whole PVP though.

As long as D4 is PVP oriented, the combat pacing is obviously won’t speed up that much. Heroes of the Storm’s combat pacing had been consistent (maybe slightly faster) from alpha until the present.

@Oblivion-1520

Honestly, I don’t see that as them saying that pvp will be the primary focus of the game. Instead it just says to me that pvp won’t be an effortless afterthought like Diablo 3’s brawl. Only time will tell though if that’s to be the case.

Indeed. Plus, everything is subject to change. Who knows, they might pull another D3 “PVP arena delayed” move again for D4.

@ElobaCarcen-2521

Dude, no one seriously played Diablo for PvP. The only ones that did were those, who were bad at shooters and RTS.

I am certainly don’t play Diablo 2 for PVP in the past.

[Faith-2661]

I prefer no pvp at all.

I most certainly do NOT want to be suddenly attacked by some idiot who has no life and plays D4 all the time so he’s stronger and picks on the weaker characters.

If PvP is included, there must be consent to engage in PvP.
I will most certainly always decline.

Go play Overwatch or something. All the the PvP you could possibly want.

[Kilometer-11340]

@Faith-2661

I most certainly do NOT want to be suddenly attacked by some idiot who has no life and plays D4 all the time so he’s stronger and picks on the weaker characters.

No worry as long as you don’t wander into the PVP zone in D4. Of course that assuming that the PVP Zone isn’t connected to the zone that you need to get there to complete the storyline quest.

[Oblivion-1520]

@Kilometer-11340

You just don’t get it, isn’t it? I am talking about the playstyle and ridiculous design wise. D3 Necromancer can kill people without aiming, all he have to do is walking around, and people died. Can D2 Necromancer do that?

Yep, both summoner and bonemancer builds were capable of killing people without the Necromancer needing to aim. The person using a summon build need only step outside near a player and every single skeleton, skeleton mage, revives minions, and golem will kill any nearby opposing players instantly. A bonemancer (with a decent amount of fcr) can cast a couple of bone spirits in a few seconds that’ll will autotrack a target and if they all hit, that person’s dead. Remember there’s no defense against magic damage.

@Kilometer-11340

Now the D4 Wizard’s Frost Bolt is Holy Freeze tier? Unless there is info about Holy Freeze in D4, I don’t see the point you bringing it up.

When I said that a Diablo 3 Necromancer cc the whole screen could be countered due to abilities and items; you brought up Diablo 2’s “cannot be frozen” affix, which you deemed to be on the same level as Diablo 3 cc counters. I was merely pointing out that Holy Freeze by passed Diablo 2 “cannot be frozen” affix.

@Kilometer-11340

Players (Hero) get stunned with lesser duration is a thing since WC3. The only problem is the cooldown for crowd control. If it is PVE game, crowd control tends to have a lesser cooldown because no one cares about monsters being. If the game is PVP oriented, obviously the crowd control cooldown will be longer to prevent stun-lock or combo-wombo on the players.

Well the game is obviously not pvp oriented. If that were the case, then every single skill would have a cooldown (and there wouldn’t be any Arsenal or Enchantment systems), and videos we’ve seen thus far show that’s not the case. Lastly, we already saw cooldown reduction is still an affix for items.

@Kilometer-11340

There is no coincidence that D3 ROS and PoE combat pacing starting to speed up the moment they gave up on the whole PVP though.

Diablo 3 combat pacing was slow at the beginning where there wasn’t any pvp; and don’t say that the developers were working on it as Brawls implementation shows me that they gave up on pvp long ago. Instead I’d blame the fast combat pacing on Diablo 3 emphasizing speed clears as it started after greater rifts implementation.

@Kilometer-11340

Indeed. Plus, everything is subject to change. Who knows, they might pull another D3 “PVP arena delayed” move again for D4.

Maybe, I hope they don’t though. We’ll see.

@Faith-2661

If PvP is included, there must be consent to engage in PvP.

I agree. It’s been said thus far that pvp will be done in designated zones. My hopes are that pve players will have no need to go to or through these zones while they go about their journey.

[Faith-2661]

Exactly that. The normal zones must exclude PvP, or have a challenge system which allows you to decline a challenge, without any cost / consequences.

D3 has a nice zone for PvP. No need to get into that zone for any other reason than PvP. Excellent solution.

[Kilometer-11340]

@Oblivion-1520

Yep, both summoner and bonemancer builds were capable of killing people without the Necromancer needing to aim. The person using a summon build need only step outside near a player and every single skeleton, skeleton mage, revives minions, and golem will kill any nearby opposing players instantly. A bonemancer (with a decent amount of fcr) can cast a couple of bone spirits in a few seconds that’ll will autotrack a target and if they all hit, that person’s dead. Remember there’s no defense against magic damage.

I am pretty sure that summons in D2 has terrible AI. Without Enigma as a guidepost, they are trash as they will wandering around instead of actually hitting the target you wanted. Also, I never heard people having problems with D2 Necro summoner in PVP though.

And Bone Spirits don’t travel at high speed. It gives enough time for players to react. D3 Corpse Lance travels in high-speed with homing capability, and even ridiculous if it combo with Land of the Dead. D2 Bonemancer looks “balance” in comparison. And again, I never say that D2 Bonemancer is weak, so you don’t have to keep reminding me that.

@Oblivion-1520

When I said that a Diablo 3 Necromancer cc the whole screen could be countered due to abilities and items; you brought up Diablo 2’s “cannot be frozen” affix, which you deemed to be on the same level as Diablo 3 cc counters. I was merely pointing out that Holy Freeze by passed Diablo 2 “cannot be frozen” affix.

I brought up the “Cannot be Frozen” affix because I have no idea what it will be called in D4. I am simply stating that item that can counter frozen is long-existing. It is not something new to anyone, and I certainly not going to think that D4 Wizard’s Frost Bolt is Holy-Freeze tier.

@Oblivion-1520

Well the game is obviously not pvp oriented. If that were the case, then every single skill would have a cooldown (and there wouldn’t be any Arsenal or Enchantment systems), and videos we’ve seen thus far show that’s not the case. Lastly, we already saw cooldown reduction is still an affix for items.

Why would you assume that every skill needs to have a cooldown if it is PVP oriented? I am simply saying the skill with crowd control will have a longer cooldown than the PVE crowd control skill for balance purposes on PVP.

They could use D2 PVP format where you can spam Bone Spirit non-stop but at the same time, put a cooldown on the powerful crowd control skill so it won’t feel oppressive.

And yes, I aware we have a cooldown affix in D4 but we have no idea what kind of approach they are going to do with the cooldown affix. Will they capped it at 20% or the players can stack it enough to the point they can spam 120 seconds skill every 3 seconds as D3 did?

@Oblivion-1520

Diablo 3 combat pacing was slow at the beginning where there wasn’t any pvp; and don’t say that the developers were working on it as Brawls implementation shows me that they gave up on pvp long ago. Instead I’d blame the fast combat pacing on Diablo 3 emphasizing speed clears as it started after greater rifts implementation.

D3 combat pacing is slow in the beginning because at that time they still trying to deliver the so-called proper PVP Arena for D3, but ultimately give up for good after a year of trying behind the door.

PoE doesn’t have a leaderboard and greater rift yet it also speeds up the gameplay over time.

[Oblivion-1520]

We’re going back and forth with this topic. I agree with you that pvp shouldn’t be forced on pve players. You’re concerned (at least I believe you are) that the Diablo 4 developers focus on pvp will sacrifice the game’s pve aspect. Honestly I believe that the concern is groundless, however time will tell whether it was or wasn’t.

[Kilometer-11340]

@Oblivion-1520

Honestly I believe that the concern is groundless, however time will tell whether it was or wasn’t.

And I would be glad to be wrong if D4 didn’t sacrifice the PVE aspects over PVP.

[N4M3L3ZM4K3R-1289]

It’d be no worse for Diablo than if they over-focus on PvE at the expense of PvP. If D4’s launch sales fail to match even 50% of D3’s 3.5 mil, the writing will be on the wall as to D3’s monumental mediocrity.

@Faith-2661

Excellent solution.

… What?

You’ll find more playability & ingenuity in Warcraft 3 ROC Hero Arena, and that hasn’t been fun since 2002. The only thing D3 excels at is “larger-than-life heroes” and giving up.

Please, let’s bring back basic (not minimal) multiplayer for D4, no more wonderful “state-of-the-art” “excellence”, thank you!

[Mousehouse-11421]

@Faith-2661

D3 has a nice zone for PvP. No need to get into that zone for any other reason than PvP. Excellent solution.

Yeah very nice… except that the zone is the worst PvP zone in history.

[Faith-2661]

Yeah it could have been much better, nicer etc.
The idea of a dedicated zone where you only need to be for PvP is excellent.
I wasn’t talking about the actual design…

PvP zone could even be a portal generating a random or choosable map just for pvp.
Like gr or something…

Just don’t bother me with PvP nonsense while I am just playing the game pve…

[GreatSCOTT-11380]

It can wait. Until next year, certainly.

Let’s get the core gameplay mechanics hammered out.

Then it is simply a matter of NOT PROHIBITING PVP.

It really is as simple as that.

[Mousehouse-11421]

I am with you here, just give me the PvP arenas, that were promised in D3

[Faith-2661]

Yeah they did a pretty big boo boo there.
Still kind of unbelievable it went the way it went…

[GreatSCOTT-11380]

Your apathy is duly noted.

I’m dead

[Pe3eWe3e-21492]

So it seems everyone wants to hear more about PVP. Reasons are different but still more info is better than no info.

[Azimuth-2255]

@naksiloth-1354

Diablo2 PvP still going

A big MYTH. I’ve been playing D2 intensively for the last year, and it is easier to find ZOD than to see a PVP game on the list. PVP in D2 has always been a small additional feature just for fun, for (some) bored players who play D2 too much. Just that and nothing more than that. Normal PVP players who really love PVP challenge go play PVP designed games. Diablo II is not among those.

As for Diablo 4. Yes, it will feature PVP zones, again, just for fun. Small additional feature for those who don’t know how else to entertain themselves in the game. But mark my words - these zones will be as empty as a ghost town. Precisely because ARPG is not a genre for PVP. Even PoE (with its super mechanics, super balanace, etc) proved that. No one plays PVP there. It is completely ignored.