D3 remains the only game on BATTLE.NET without effective PvP. Devs wanted to doubly ensure that D3 absolutely did not become an e-sport, and they succeeded. (Though post-launch had its own issues, such as certain boss affixes making things a little too “difficult to master” so they removed those too.)
But when people buy a Blizzard game, they expect greater than two weeks of entertainment. To achieve this without committing to the “path of exile” & years of continuous content creation, developers must resort to clever use of emergent complexity to achieve this kind of value for players. And the simplest most cost-effective way to do that is PvP.
Just because RPGs tend to be single-player, doesn’t mean PvP doesn’t belong in RPGs. If anything, I’d argue that a game about developing a highly personal character practically begs for PvP, for players to test their characters’ mettle and see the results of the customization.
In any case, Diablo was never “an-RPG-first-and-a-multiplayer-game second”. Bring on the damn PvP!
However, I think PvP should have great rewards for those who enjoy it, however they should only give benefits while in a PvP area, or in PvP mode…however they end up handling it.
I dont get why some people even mention POE into the topic about the PVP.
PVP in POE doesnt working, because of a lot of factors, but that doesnt mean it wont work on Open World game like Diablo.
POE combat system its very poor, its very wooden at least. They dont have good places for PVP as well. Their PVP arena is a complete joke.
Also POE is commanded by the streamers, and they focus on PVE, because of the content.
Doing PVP wont help them at all. Don`t forget POE is focused around the leagues, and making new character every 2-3 months or so.
Also the power creep in POE is out of control from long time.
Also they never really focused on PVP. They may have said that, but PVP was always in a s**** spot.
And to mask the lack of good PVP, they are saying people arent interested in.
Which is untrue. I played POE and PVP was one of the things that i think it was a must in there. I mean a solid PVP. The other ofc was to fix the power creep and have a good trading system, current one s*****.
As far as the PVP in Diablo and in ARPG games. Its a must if you ask me. It needs to be good, because PVP will attract people from more genre and if the combat system is good and PVP is made good, this is where you are actual skill can shine, and where you can test your character. Leaderboards are a joke and i never even try to compete in them. To play a specific character and what is optimal(not what i like), just to “compete” in a “time event” is a absolutely joke and this is for 13 year old kids.
In a big Open World Game, a good PVP brings very interesting part and a option for the end game.
I love to do quests, dungeons, grind and so on, but if there is no PVP, its like something is missing from the picture, and the game does not feel complete.
The same can be said for PvP in general, an absolute joke for 13 year old kids. Competition does not belong in RPG’s. The game should be about your characters journey, and growth. If a game needs leaderboards, and GR’s, and other e-sport nonsense to stay alive, it failed as an RPG.
But competition is a great part of character journey and growth. The magic about competition is that people who don’t think it will be part of the character’s development can just skip this feature and keep role playing, while people who cares can enter and enjoy.
As Blizzard said “easy to play, hard to master”. If they don’t mess with balance and make some absurd scale (again) this leads us to competition.
This is entirely untrue.
What really makes Diablo 2 so great was the PVP.
PVP always have special place in such a genre games.
And no one is talking about E-sports. Why you even mention it ?
PVP is just like any other end game content, its a another stuff to do when you reach end game.
One of the most crying topic about D3 was the PVP. One of my problem with POE is the lack of PVP as well, at least a good one.
PVP is a huge part in MMORPG genre, and guess from what this genre evolve ? I will help you, its in the “second part” of the name …
Also every genre must evolve. As we see FPS and BR games are so popular, because people fight each other, exactly what people want to do in every single game, no matter if its FPS, RPG, MMO, Action and so on.
I dont know why so many 13 year old kids are coming to cry and not want a PVP. No one tells you to plat it. Its an option. If you want to play it, go for it, if you want to focus on PVE go for it.
Actually i know. Kids want to think they have the best character, and to think they made it the best, and in PVP they will realize this is false.
I don`t see any other reason someone to be against a PVP.
And everyone have different opinion what he see as a good RPG.
Also we talk about online game with an Open World.
What i would love to see tho it has to to be successful ? Pretty simply:
Great ,fascinating and long story.
continuation to that story into the end game
a lot of end game contents(aka fighting stuff to do like dungeons, (maybe take something or if all from MMO, like Operations/Flashpoints/Uprising/Conquests/Heroic/Wold bosses/all kind of PVPs activity and so on) side quests, end game quests, daily, and everything to do in terms of PVE fighting that has big set of replayability.
crafting
deep character customization
deep skills/passive customization(like POE for example)
Gameplay(combat included)
-Graphics
-Partying
good aesthetic appearance of gear and character. Diablo 2 > Diablo 3 anyday.
And there is probably more that i can`t remember right now.
This is just because ARPG simply can’t be good for PvP. Just that easy. There are PvP games with isometric camera, I think you know them well .) But these are not and will never be ARPGs.
Before we hear about PvP, we must hear more about itemization and stats first.
PvP can only work if the items and stats support it.
For PvP in any game to be compelling, it must be about players being able to outplay each other… in a Diablo setting, that would be about who manages his resources better, positioning, cooldowns on defensive abilities, gap closers, escape abilities and so on.
If players are able to one-shot each other (despite having maxed defenses), none of that will happen.
In D2 there’s plenty of one-shotting going on, even with max resistances and absorbs.
In Vanilla Diablo 3, there was plenty of one-shotting going on. I had a Barb that could one-shot with a single Rend, WD that could one-shot with Haunt or a tick or two of Plague Bats.
So far, there hasn’t been good PvP in Diablo. If people believe there has been, then they’ve never played a good PvP game in their lives and don’t know what they are talking about.
If Blizzard wanna add a proper PvP mode in D4, they should borrow heavily from games like Bloodline Champions and Battlerite, as they are the closest decent PvP games to a Diablo setting.
Would it be nice? Yes.
Should it be a priority? No.
PvP in an MMORPG setting was only good in WoW, specifically in the Arenas…
and only during TBC and WotLK…
and only during season 3,4,7 and 8… and even then it wasn’t perfect and had it’s problems, but it was the best it ever was.
That’s a very small window of time in the game’s lifespan.
What was so great about it? That you could get one-shotted, despite having max resistances, absorbs, max dmg reduction and so on?
It was stupid beyond belief.
Please, don’t try to re-write history. I know it seems easy when you usually encounter phony Diablo fans, that hate D2 despite never playing it,
but I’ve played plenty of D2. The PvP there is a joke. Always has been.
I would absolutely love PvP, but only if it’s done right.
If you believe D2 had great PvP, or MMOs in general, then we have a very different idea as to what is great PvP.
You obviously didnt play Diablo 2 plenty of it, if you say that the PVP was a joke.
It maybe a joke for 2020, but you dont judge that a mechanics, a game or a movie from 20 years ago. You judge them for its time, and compare them to their rivals at that time.
For the time, PVP in Diablo 2 was the true end game, and most people played it and were happy with it. No one said it was a masterpiece, but for its time it was more than good.
I would even say it was better than any of the PVE attempt for a PVP.
But kids cant get it, because they didnt play Diablo 2 at its prime, back in its years, when there wasnt a competition, and game was completely different.
They start playing it when the game was pretty much dead and outdated, due to the years. Which is normally for any game.
As far as one shooting, yeah you can get one shot, if your character is dog s***** or you are running glass cannon build. It was long ago i played this game(i played it during its prime, im 31 years old), but the only one that can kill a solidly build character with 1-2 shots was the hammerdin, because you can`t stack a good magic resistances. But you can outplay hammerdin and win such a duel. Its was pretty normal for hammerdin to kill you like that. I dont remember other character to be able to 1-2 shot you, unless you are running a glass cannon.
Again for 2020 DIablo 2 PVP may s*****, but for its time was great fun and people loving it was the only real end game and people were playing it mostly.
As far as only WOW have a good PVP, that maybe the case if you only played WOW.
Just because you have some standards or think the PVP should be like you think should be, and don accept anything else doesnt mean most games doesnt have good PVP. You know the world its not only you, and your point is just a drop in the sea.
Lost Ark have solid PVP, where actually your skill matters, not just character power.
SWTOR have solid PVP and different modes
ESO has one of the best PVP where you actually need skills.
Even Lineage 2 PVP require skill and knowledge. You may not like it, but a lot of people may loving it.
Again this is about opinion.
Saying a isometrical game can`t have a good PVP is another joke. At the end of the day MOBA games is about dueling most of the time, and they are pretty much with isometrical view.
This argument alone destroys every single comment that you cant make a good PVP in isometrical RPG.
Blizzard are not ***** they know how to make a good game and a good PVP.
Again if you dont like it i dont see a single reason for anyone to complain about PVP, just dont play it.
Its an option, and more options is better.
Dude, no one seriously played Diablo for PvP. The only ones that did were those, who were bad at shooters and RTS.
The contemporary games at the time like StarCraft, WarCraft 3, CS, Quake 3, Unreal Torunament , figher games like Motral Kombat and things were that were actual PvP games.
Sure… I wasn’t born in the late 80s, I’m only making it up. In reality I am 12.
I’ve never seen a floppy disk in my life (which is what was often used for moving a non-battle net character for LAN party), I’ve never used windows 95, 98, XP.
The first machine I ever played on had Windows 10.
I apologize again. I’ve never died to Blizzard, despite having max resistances, 40 or more cold absorb, putting every point on vitality, having “cannot be frozen”.
I made it all up again. In reality, the first time I played D2 was back in 2016 and I put every single point I had in Strength and that’s why I don’t understand PvP.
My character was dog s*** and so am I…
That only tells me, that back when you were 11, you had no clue as to what a good PvP game looks like and you thought D2 was it…
For the record, I am actually older than you, I’m almost 33…
I tried a whole bunch of MMOs, several supposed “WoW killers” and those games were poor, so was the PvP.
The game, that tried to sell action bars for real money? No, thanks.
The same nonsense can be said to you, or anyone really.
And yet throughout the years I’ve mostly been right.
But sure, keep on thinking that D2 PvP was the real skill…
I never said that. In fact, I suggested, that devs should borrow from isometric games, that have decent PvP like BLC and Battlerite.
This is a rather poor & misleading comparison to Diablo IV PvP.
PoE was not created with PvP in mind and was always a poor platform for it, that leads us to the second & more important point.
The failure to implement PvP in Path of Exile has everything to do with the fact that PoE’s shortcomings(with PvP in mind) made it near impossible to a) Balance b) provide a fun experience(Unlike D2 PvP). Those two resulted in this mode being quickly abandoned even by players that liked Diablo 2 PvP or the concept of PvP in isometric arpgs.
The entire ‘‘FFA’’ classless skill system of PoE at that time just turned it into a complete mess, from a balance perspective near impossible, wasn’t fun for long and it felt pointless.
Diablo 4 does not have those issues.
It was never even a vocal minority, as most could see why PvP wouldn’t work in Path of exile after their first attempt(prior to that, the demand was more significant)
I participated in those discussions back then, as did many Diablo 2 PvP veterans, everyone pretty much agreed that GGG needed to focus their attention & '‘limited resources ‘’ fixing the many issues that plagued Path of exile at that time( ‘’ desync"’ was a big topic). This was long before the ‘‘Tencent’’ purchase.
Maybe PvP could work in Path of exile 2 but would require fundamental changes to core systems as the level of complexity and power creep at this point would make PvP near impossible to balance/ make fun. The whole ‘‘always in beta’’ thing is another reason why PoE can’t be compared to Blizzard games.
Blizzard’s games never had this problem. Thus PvP was a success story in D2 to WoW and would have been in Diablo 3 as well if handled with competence from the beginning(D3 devs couldn’t even get the PvE right, yeah PvP was doomed with such a dev team/Wilson)
Diablo 4 - looking at the future - however is a very different beast, it’s open-world setting makes it the ideal arpg for PvP implementation imho and if done correctly could become a fun & worthwhile addition to the game’s endgame variation(aka, things to do).
It is hilarious to see this kind of posts when I still remember how D2 fans, D3 haters, and PoE fans glorifying GGG when they introduce the PVP league and making fun of D3 for not having the “real” PVP at that time…until their honeymoon period is over.
Now, how things had changed over time. Now we got people literally ridiculing GGG for being “incompetent” and how PoE Is never meant for PVP mode.
Are you a prophet? or you are secretly a part of the D4 PVP development team?
if OP PvE builds don’t return to D4, it is certainly because it won’t work or a nightmare to balance for the game that made with PVP in mind. It is that simple.
Are you going to replace all the crowd control skills such as STUN, FROZEN, BLIND to chilled and slowed against Players? In case you don’t realize it, modern PVP has STUN, FROZEN and BLIND, and these skills are usually balanced thru long cooldown and duration, at least this is what happened in Heroes of the Storm, and that is why when using the HoTS heroes for the PvE content mode, it feels clunky and not fun. In case you are wondering, the PvE content was removed and never come back until today.
Either way, you can choose to remain optimistic for D4 PvE, but I certainly won’t do so after I read that they designed D4 with PVP in mind, which PVE side will be certainly affected by that decision.
Or it’s simply because the developers didn’t want to bring it back for reasons that had nothing to do with pvp. Let’s take the Necromancer summoner build back in Diablo 2 where the Necromancer can literally amass an army of skeletons, skeletal mages, revivals, and a golem. This was an incredibly op build that allowed the Necromancer to handle a wide variety of enemies, especially when they also used the right spells and curses.
But even with the Necromancer’s return in Diablo 3, it’s current pet build is a far cry to it’s previous iteration. Now based on what you’ve said, that would be because pvp was a focus in the game, but we know that’s definitely not the case with Diablo 3. So again, if the build never makes a return to Diablo 4, that’s simply because that’s the developers saw fit that it shouldn’t return.
It’s a good thing then that Diablo 4 will primarily be a pve arpg game; and skills can simply have reduced damage and/or effects when used against other players, while still retaining their full power when used in pve content (exactly how it was in Diablo 2). Also we’ve probably already seen this via the Diablo 4 gameplay trailer. A sorceress could freeze monsters with 1-2 frost bolts, but was unable to do the same to a Barbarian she was fighting.
After Diablo 3, I’m not too optimistic on how they’ll handle pvp (I’m keeping my expectations low). That said, I have my doubts that they’ll sacrifice the pve aspects in favor for pvp. Saying they had it in mind doesn’t mean that pvp is their foremost priority. If anything we’ve yet to see anything to suggest that, as if pvp were the foremost priority, then classes wouldn’t have their unique systems like the arsenal system or enchant system. Do you have any idea how insanely advantageous or how tedious it would be to balance such systems in a pvp focused game especially when there’s a variety of different elements that come into play such as character’s skills, talents, items, etc.?
So if you want to believe that pve will be sacrificed due to the presence of pvp, then so be it. However, I’m of the belief that won’t happen as we have yet to see anything to even suggest that.
People are pretending, that balancing PvP was impossible… Guess what, StarCraft 2 is highly balanced and it is comparable to balance 3 classes in an ARPG. I would argue, that it’s even harder and as long, as D4 PvP is roughly balanced, as SC2 was after release, it is perfectly fine. Noone should ask for a 100% balanced game… This doesn’t exist.
Also, Blizzard announced PvP, so there should be PvP, no matter if you care for it or not. It was a big rip off, when I bought D3 for 2 reasons: PvE and PvP and I got only one of them for my money (which got patched to death). They also already said, that currently they are considering PvP areas.
Personally I think, that Arenas, located at the biggest City / Camp and some across the map would be amazing. And I think there should be a reward. Why not having a reward? Some people in here don’t want PvP to give rewards, only because they don’t play it? Lol? Let other people get their rewards, why would you care?? Pretty egocentric IMHO.
D3 Necromancer is more OP than D2 Necromancer when it comes to PVE. It is an upgrade, not downgrade. There is a good reason why people want Necromancer when they are doing speedrunning ala Rat Run, and it will be the very same reason that the D3 Necromancer playstyle may not make into D4 because of PVP. If anything, D2 Necromancer playstyle has a higher chance to come back to D4 because it doesn’t have the ability to mow down the players instantly as D3 necromancer did.
That is your assumption, not fact. I am impressed that you still denial that D4 will be a PVE game with developers outright saying that D4 will be built from the ground with PVP in mind.
Where do you read that the skill effect will vary against monsters or players in D4?
The frost bolt’s freeze can be chance-based, or the barbarian is equipping anti-freeze items or the barbarian has the passive skill to render freeze. How can you conclude that just with a few seconds clip? Also, it may be a scripted battle for the trailer purpose alone.
Of course you shouldn’t because their latest PVP game just flopped hard.
Because they are emphasizing the PVP aspect during the interview.
Doesn’t stop LoL and DotA to balance over hundreds of heroes and possible thousands or more item combination and synergy because these games were made with PVP in mind. Don’t forget that David Kim is an ex-SC2 balance team and now he is part of D4 development team. Balancing the game is literally his bread and butter.
There is a good reason why Blizzard assigned David Kim to D4 when he has no knowledge of making PVE game or Diablo-like games.
I will only trust the developer’s word until they told us that they gave up on PVP aspect and will make D4 PVE oriented like D3 and PoE.
Admittedly D1 PvP only “worked” because there was no expectation from players that all 3 playable characters should be perfectly viable.
But Diablo without PvP whatsoever, would not be in the same category as the Diablo games we got. It would be merely Diblo, a solid but ultimately forgettable 90’s RPG, like Betrayal at Krondor or something. Even if you personally will never explore PvP, just having the option goes a long way to create an undertone of a dynamic world of possibilities. Diablo PvP was every bit as effective at world-building the desolate brutality of Sanctuary as any character, prop or cutscene.
And then of course there’s the actual mechanical gameplay it offers. Great fun. I remember when most games were single-player, and so you took notice when you found a 2-player game. It was usually tacky as hell, but nonetheless those games were effectively in a class by themselves. When did this stop being a desirable feature? When did we start weighing the production cost of features, instead of be happy that they are there at all? Blizzard are not seeking advice on H.R., production pipelines and labor management, give me a break.
Every good PvP component in a game always borrows heavily from the “main” core gameplay loop to complement eachother nicely, giving weight & meaning to both.
C’mon, that’s hardly a consensus!
Personally I vastly enjoyed SS vs. Tarren Mill. Then the Honor patch (before BGs) was absolutely nuts. World PvP on every corner. Then of course the original AV in all its glory, I feel needs no elaboration.
If you are talking purely about mechanical design and the system’s ability to stand the test of time, that smacks of “re-writing history” as well. And besides, TBC Warlocks were OP as hell weren’t they?
How right are we talking here? 60% right? 80% right? Because I’ve played some very flawed-but-solid PvP in my time. Often these are the most memorable parts for me, despite them being an afterthought in many cases. I think that speaks to the power of PvP. Implementing PvP undeniably “does more with less”. At least we can agree that doing it “right” entails total non-interference with PvE players.
Not having to factor-in customers’ existing characters, by itself is a pretty huge boon vs. what PoE would have to do. No special info required.
Why should that be the case for D4, or a trend at all?
Personally I think CC can be annoying, especially in games where you can’t buffer your inputs and your ability to act between stuns depends on your bloody ping. Yes, it was funny to get Feared in WoW for the first time, but that novelty has worn off for me.
Having a single Vault on an 8-second cooldown always felt clunky to me, no matter the mode. Devs give every skill a PvP counterpart with different properties to address this exact issue.
As for me, I would have devs work on what personally excites them the most, above any other consideration.
Without the relevant historical context that may seem hilarious, again you are misleading and ignoring the second point i made.
Short history lesson:
At that time D3 was a huge disappointment for a lot of players, it was being attacked & ridiculed on many fronts, from crappy itemization, lack of skill trees etc, poor story narrative to lack of PvP(Blizzard’s own fault for all the ‘‘arena hype’’ etc).
This is how Path of exile became the number 1 online arpg today, the public discontent with D3 is what GGG capitalized on, and for most part they did it well(as obviously Chris Wilson, knew what he was doing )
However that does not change the fact that PoE was and still is a poor platform for PvP, the PvP there was just added as an afterthought. The complexity & homogeneous ‘‘class system’’ no PvP '‘metas’ or even player balance with their own set of rules could easily be established, any sense of general balance out of question but more importantly, it was not fun to play, thus is was abandoned quickly even by those that wanted a worthy D2 PvP successor.
That’s the difference with Diablo 2, why ‘‘dueling’’ games are still being created today, two decades after release, it’s still fun to engange in D2 PvP (used to be a lot more fun before the OP runewords, or in private games with rules)
