I told you why you haven’t seen it above - it gets harder for balancing and when they do balancing the oldschool way (without an AI), they use the more complicated Math rules.
Is this a note to self haha?
Okay, one more for you:
1] 5 + 8 + 3 + 4 + 9 + 6 = ?
2] 5 x 8 x 3 x 4 x 9 x 6 = ?
Are you saying simpler math makes it harder to balance?
Yeah, that was already easier thanks to the smaller numbers used.
Not simpler though. You use the exact same math rules for both.
If you can calculate one, you can calculate the other as well.
More simplified Math leads to less precision thus harder balancing.
Time spent while doing the calculation is different.
That’s the whole point - the player isn’t interrupted (by calculations, world map traversing, bounties, static quests, basic leveling, campaign), he is constantly in the action (combat, loot hunting).
Let me give my 2 cents what I think of math.
RPGs were tabletop games & maths has to be easy, because you need to manually do the maths. This restriction no long need to apply.
I am a believer damage output (mitigation etc) shouldn’t be more complicated than needed. But it should have certain level of depth so gearing & skilling is more interesting.
Something like here
Melee Damage =(Sum of elemental damage) x (Sum of str) x(Weapon damage ) x (skill damage) x Independence Mulipler 1(M1) X M2…x Mn
Its easy to understand. It not easy to manually calculate, but you know what each stats that give damage do, & which give deminishing return (in this case, elemental damage & str)
More important than about damage Math IMO is similarity between attack skill & spell skill. For balancing sake.
In games like PoE & D2. Spells & attack used diffeernt formula & scale differrently resulting in disparity in damage output.
Spell in gerneral are far more powerful than attack in D2 in pure damage number, as it is far easier to scale spell than attack.
Depth is different than complicated Math. Somehow people in this thread think one always leads to another, while that’s not the case at all.
What… No.
Neither leads to easier or harder balancing.
More multiplicative scaling (vs. additive scaling) leads to harder balancing, due to higher variance. Things escalates out of control quickly. But that is true no matter of you use small or large numbers.
The size of the numbers dont really matter themselves for balancing, other than being annoying for players. Preferably dmg numbers in D4 should be counted in the tens of thousands.
For balancing, and for gameplay however, the difference between 1000 and 2000, or 1 trillion and 2 trillion, is the same.
You also want to get rid of world map traversal now. And quests.
But of course you do 
That picture from earlier, it is spot on for what you want.
Yeah. 100%
I somewhat agree*, except independent multipliers shouldnt all be multiplicative. Preferably many of them should not. For example, % skill dmg from items, % dmg types (like % Ranged Dmg), % dmg from legendary effects etc. should be additive. Maybe elemental dmg % should also be additive. To keep that scaling more reasonable.
So the last part of the formula might become
(M1a+M1b+M1c+M1d) x (M2a+M2b+M2c+M2d) etc.
(and in relation to earlier posts; the game should clearly state which pool of affixes each affix is additive with)
*although, each skill should have two components. one that scales with weapon and one that does not.
So basically your dmg would be
Total skill dmg = Melee weapon dmg for skill + Skill dmg. Same formulas for both, except the wpn dmg vs. skill dmg parts.
For a specific skill tooltip it might say:
130% weapon dmg + 5000 dmg, where the former is the weapon scaling part and the latter is the one that scales with skill rank.
So that weapons matter somewhat less for your overall dmg, and skill ranks can matter more (of course, skill ranks can also matter by increasing the % weapon dmg, but then weapons continue to rule supreme)
Things always get more complicated of course. And that is fine. The game should not steer away from that.
Like, some skills pretty much need to bake in attack speed in the dmg, as it happens in D3, due to various constrains that makes it impossible to increase the actual attack speed. Might happen for some pets. It shouldnt always happen, and in D3 likely happens too much. It is completely okay for some skills to not scale with attack speed at all.
Then you have all kinds of proc effects, that do not directly affect your skill dmg, but still affects your real dmg.
So the skill dmg calculation is just the simplest part.
Removing all those things, just to make it simpler to understand, would be really misguided however.
It can happen when something is off either with the Math rules or values. However there is more precision when you have multiplication in formulas and bigger numbers as values.
That’s because you take for granted D3 Math as base which is outdated.
As I said above in the thread - we can complicate Math rules on purpose to see when players will start leaving the game. We can also simplify Math rules without losing depth in order to welcome more players in the game.
D3 Math rules and itemization are archaic and boring. It’s pretty much an example of things complicated unnecessary. I remember using Excel in D3V to calculate stuff. That was 10 years ago.
Modern aRPG design should learn from the mistakes of games like D3 and PoE regarding unnecessary complicated systems.
Dude, have you heard that portals exist in the real Diablo world? We don’t traverse with stupid mounts there.
As long as these aren’t AI-driven they have no place in a Diablo game. Hades and Lost Ark endgame shines again - no quests.
It summarizes perfectly the current Diablo 4 state - a complete mess.
No, that is just the reality of having games with many moving elements.
Lost Ark and Hades work like this too btw. Even while being extremely dumbed down.
And as said back then, that continues to be a completely absurd argument.
Too much water is bad for your health (aka. drowning), so any amount of water must be bad for your health! 
Lost Ark has no quests in endgame now? What are you drinking… Surely not water.
But yeah, seems clear you want Lost Arks “just stand in town and teleport to most activities”. Such gameplay design!
Those are mathematical concepts or rules if u like.
A equation is math aswell. Mathematics is more than just concept and rules.
Its variables and is included in the formula. The more variables and rules the more complex would some consider the equation. Understanding the formula and the variables is math aswell. If the rules are obscure some would consider solving the equation complex. As the math is also finding and explaining the rules. By saying the rules is obscure u pretty much saying its complex.
Simular but alot easier and straightforward. If u add fcr it increase the fcr by the said amount. If u reach above the breakpoint u still getting the benefit of the breakpoint. Thats not always the case in d3. Its alot easier to understand how to increase your dmg in d2 than it is in d3. The calculation is pretty straightforward in d2.
I believe thats what skelos are refering to.
Not extremely, but they do way better than D3 regarding new players.
Let’s make one super complicated itemization together and see whether it will be fun? Let me spoil you - it won’t.
Teleporting should have a cost of course, but it should be an option for those not enjoying traversing with mounts.
I was always in favor of a game having different gameplay options: let those enjoying mounts go with them, but don’t force it on everyone; let those enjoying campaign level up as much as they want there, but don’t force it on everyone; let those enjoying bounties farm them, but don’t force it on everyone; let those enjoying complicated Math have it as accountants, but don’t force it in aRPGs.
Complex, if not outright impossible. You cant solve an equation, if its elements are literally hidden. Like A B C = D, where could be +, or x etc. We clearly need that information to calculate anything.
Hence why that information is what should be accessible in-game. As long as they are, the math itself is simple.
The game rules are complex. The math is not.
Breakpoints or whether affixes scale additively or multiplicatively is not something you can find solely through math. Only empirical testing will tell you that.
Unless the game devs would just tell you themselves, as they should, in an A-RPG.
Probably not, since he claims both D2 and D3 use “complex math”.
In any case, I dont think breakpoints on affixes should exist. They are kinda silly as they are usually just related to old hardware limitations.
The designed breakpoints like the Attribute => skill upgrade breakpoints in D4 on the other hand, are great. And also fully explained in-game.
Do they? Yet another of your unfounded claims.
Reading comprehension issues again? You are restating the same absurd claim.
But you know what? Super complicated itemization sounds fun!
I am not arguing against having complex math or complex itemization.
Only saying that D2 and D3 does not use, let alone require, complex math, and also have fairly simple itemization. It pretty much cant get simpler than that.
Ugh.
You are back to
https://i.redd.it/sjmaiimvool81.jpg
“Please just follow the arrow to the designated destination. Please dont think for even a second”
Mounts seem terrible imo, but that is not the point. Mounts and world traversal is not the same.
Traversing the world is what let players encounter dynamic gameplay.
Trolling again?
You literally say you want to get rid of the “complex” math, so dont pretend to want to have it as different gameplay options.
You are trying to force a dumbed down game on others. When you can easily have the kind of math D2 and D3 has, while also allowing people to ignore it. Double speak much?
I agree bounties, campaign etc. should be optional (albeit ignoring them might be suboptimal of course). Well, D3 bounties are terrible game design and just shouldnt exist. But their substitute then.
Thats why mathematicians work trying to solve these puzzles. Math is the science to explain phenomenas its more than just + and -
If the game rules are complex then it adds complexity to solving equation. That is if u understand what math rly is.
Still the same concept. I dont consider d2 calculation any complex but each for their own. Again it rly comes down to what ppl see as complex.
Only D1 has simple enough Math, but D3 is worst for sure.
Steam is your friend regarding player statistics.
It can easily get more simplified. I gave you an example, but you continue to defend an outdated scenario.
What are you drinking? D4 world map is static.
You forget something very important here - the game is an Action RPG, not a Math RPG.
Context matters for words. I am pretty sure you know what people are talking about in this thread. The math in Diablo literally just is +, -, x, /
There is no need to figure out phenomena on how Diablo dmg calculations work. The devs designed them, they know how they work.
Not really. The only complex thing is figuring out what the obscure game rules are. Once you know those, the equation itself is simple.
Learning what the equation is, can be complex - if the devs tries to hide it (which they simply should not). That doesn’t mean solving it is complex.
The two are not the same. Nor even related.
Of course.
Hence why I have said many times that it is fine that if Skelos consider it complex. But he is trying to pretend that people in general consider it complex, and that they think the “complexity” is bad. Projecting his own struggles to everyone.
If he merely want to argue that the game should be simpler to cater to his desires, that would be completely fine. Just drop the pretension of “games with math in them are archaic”, “casuals dont like challenge” and all that nonsense.
Indeed. D3 has sold immensely better than both Lost Ark and Hades.
Events are not.
Nor should the D4 world map be static. That is another topic.
See. This is the kind of nonsense I am referring to 
So u dont understand what math is. Well not surprised. U dont know much. Gl anyway.
Pretty sure you are the only one in the entire thread, including Skelos even, who dont know what people are talking about when they mention math and calculating dmg etc. Instead you just start a pointless semantics discussion.
Nobody has been talking about the science of math.
To bring things down to, eh, earth, again, the topic was:
Comparing affixes, calculating your dmg etc., being able to judge one item vs. another.
If you want to call it ‘calculations’ instead of ‘math’, to satisfy some semantics battle, then go ahead.
You are completely clueless if you think the Math rules aren’t turning a lot of players off the game.
This has nothing to do with how the game was accepted. D3 is a complete failure regarding making newcomers to the genre enjoy it. Hades and Lost Ark on the other side are good examples for gaining on new player base.
I can port to events. Don’t you get it? When I traverse I want procedural maps.
So, you are now projecting your own idea of what words should mean? Action should mean Math? 
Yeah, stuff like that is what I mean.
Why not just argue your own case instead of hiding behind imaginary people.
More unfounded claims.
I dislike D3 a great deal. But catering to newcomers sure is one thing it has managed.
Dynamic… Emergent…
Something random cant happen on your path, if you have to specifically choose to teleport to it. That makes it not random…
But yes, you are making it fairly clear that you want a silly game where you just jump from battle to battle with nothing in between.
Which is fine. I just really disagree with such a preference. It is bad gameplay.
Definitely not how Hades is designed either. Quite the opposite.
It is how parts of Lost Ark is designed sadly. But then also not. The isles are the direct opposite.
The map should definitely be procedurally generated however. Or at least have a lot of RNG in it (which you often seem to conflate with procedural generation, so lets just use that word here).
Why do you feel the need to be so obtuse?
You are making up meaningless genre terms.
Everyone could do the same, What you want is apparently not an Action RPG, but a Stupid RPG? Should Action mean Stupid?
That is just nonsense. Absurd to argue like that.
I wish I could say I know you are better than that. But that would be dishonest.
D4 must not have stupid peaples plz add IQ check before enter game
How long are you guys gonna argue about this? Lol
Getting kinda sad now.
We get it you like simple math. We don’t. This thread has gone so far off topic…