Well nobody here is denying I think some stats and items are not really intuitive, just that has nothing to do with maths. To me one of best examples in game is Rimeheart, if you look at description one would think that weapon should be OP or at least very strong for any cold build. We all know though that weapon damage and 10% sucks as experienced players and that that 20% cold damage weapon that has a more or less useless legendary affix is the one to go for for most cold builds.
It is not the math that is hard in this case, but how underwhelming weapon damage is unless multiplied by millions. Mechanics make no sense, not the math is hard.
Ok, complex maths. The real problem though is that what you would intuit is not even near to reality and somehow exactly these kind of leg affixes as Rimehearts are not shown in your dps calc by game. Now that is sinning to new players, even if they are good at math. It becomes a hidden mechanic with serious game play ramifications or to become aware these mechanics even exist you need to go outside of the game.
Not everyone is or should use a d3planner outside of the game to git gud.
Like really? After hundreds of posts in this thread you still donât get what the point is - it is NOT to get any information, it is to HAVE FUN with great gameplay.
All legendary affixes could be additive instead of multiplicative when the Math rules are properly designed.
So, if we take Rimeheart as an example: deal 10000% damage as Cold to enemies that are Frozen
It would be: deal 10 points bonus damage if the enemy is frozen
You are still trolling.
It seems like reading comprehension is a bigger issue than even math for you. Context matters.
I didnât say basic information is the point of⌠everything⌠it is the point of what that sentence was referring to. Aka. context.
Exactly.
Giving players the basic information they need to make good decisions allows them to have more fun.
Removing decisions from the game, removing depth from the game and itemization, dumbing down systems, or telling players which decision to make, because you are afraid of having players make decisions, makes it less fun.
You think in the context of oldschool D2/D3 Math rules and systems, I do not. The same complexity and depth in an aRPG could be achieved with way more friendlier Math rules.
I do not even think we disagree so much on basics, just you think the design should be simple as well. The thing is the design can be incredibly complex, but the results the player sees he has to be able to intuit for the most part and the game should give the player the information he uses without basically hiding the important bits or even flat out lying as dps does and also recommended builds in D:I I understood from those playing it).
That is the easy to play up to a certain point, getting into the nitty gritty of min/maxing is to master the game.
Nothing wrong if you would need some serious effort to find out Rimeheart would be 0.5% weaker even with its nice description. The problem it is way weaker and why is unclear unless you know a few things about d3 that are nowhere told to you as a player in game. Same as every gem that is based on weapon damage sucks beyond a certain level, but can actually be best on way lower levels.
You need information to qualified hard choices.
It is comical that you previously argued that people had to click randomly on stuff if they didnât have perfect knowledge (which is also wrong), and now you have suddenly completely reversed.
No. You canât have simpler math than addition, subtraction, multiplication, division. They are as simple as it gets. If you remove them there is nothing left.
Not even your often mentioned Lost Ark and Hades, as extremely dumbed down as they are, avoid those basic math tools. Quite the opposite.
You cannot make choices without information though and never be absolute sure what is best without calculations or you are holding the hand of players, saying this is always the best in this situation. Taking any real choice away, cause there is obviously only one real choice.
You need that bit more complex math to obscure that a little and make people experiment a bit. For that you also need items that do things in different ways at about the same level so people will feel a need to experiment and see what works better and change up a bit according to different situation, mastering the game over time. If you give them one easy to recognize build that is always best you get into the situation D3 is in (even if here it is Maxxroll and such who tells you instead of the game). No build diversity, differences between builds where most are viable to about GR 100 and a few 150 and so on. Almost nothing more fun and easier yet harder to play as GR 100 builds in between around GR 120-130.
Old school RPGâs (ok the good ones, plenty did suck as well )did that itemization best, then again each of those builds were carefully crafted over whole progress of game and very tightly defined in power in relation to other items and builds and where you could get them, ARPGâs have more randomness when comes to drops and bit harder to define so perfectly.
Remember I am a casual and do normally tend to hate to have to do the math, simple or hard even if I have enough schooling in maths and statistics I can if need to or can follow those who love to do it. It also means I know that a system only based on simple maths gets to predictable since all outcomes are predicted on to few basics.
That is not simpler math⌠It still uses one of those same math rules.
And you cant reduce all affixes to addition.
Attack speed canât be additive. It goes against the nature of attack speed.
Crit chance canât be additive. It goes against the nature of crit chance.
But you know what. Most dmg modifiers in D4 should be additive. Not because it is simpler math (it isnât), but because it is better power scaling design, and allows for better balancing.
(also note, additive does not mean no multiplication, both additive and multiplicative scaling can and often do still refer to multipliers)
Telling people about breakpoints, about which affixes are additive and multiplicative, and calculating dmg numbers for them are not overcomplicated information. Just really basic stuff.
It is clear that you consider anything and everything to be complicated. Impossible to design any RPG around what you can handle. There is a limit to how much a game can be dumbed down.
But more importantly, there is a limit to how much it should be dumbed down. Lost Ark and Hades already goes way too far for what A-RPGs should do. Of course, neither are A-RPGs, so it is somewhat fine that they do it.
And yet, they still have the exact same math you criticize in D3âŚ
Exactly thatâs the point - make people play, not calculate. For that you need simplified Math rules.
I am still waiting someone of the Math gurus to comment on the Rimeheart example. Now, when that happens (Shad, your writings of nonsense above donât count) we can continue the discussion. Until then saying that we need complicated Math and calculators in aRPGs makes you either inexperienced regarding topic or elitism driven, or a troll.
Look at my last edit to last post. There is a problem if you only use simplified maths as devs to give enough variebility and give items the chance to do about the same damage in different ways. Being to predictable and easy takes away variety, just the players should have the info that shows him to enable him to intuit whether an item is good or sucks, without having to do the complex maths or even simple maths for that. For inexperienced players you do a bit more handholding at start of the new mechanic to enable to get a feel for it and when you have taught him/her that you stop the handholding.
Same goes for builds, even though one can easily defend D3 has no builds, only item loadouts.
God, you are the troll here. You keep pretending we want complicated math.
Multiplication is NOT complex math. Seriously.
Diablo does not need complex math. None of the Diablo games use complex math.
It does need simple math however. Designing an A-RPG without numbers or any kind of numbers changing over time, would be impossible.
Yep.
Cant really have build choices when everything is loadouts
Simplified Math doesnât equal predictability/less build diversity. It just means - more simple Math, and easier calculation for which you donât need a calculator.
Yes. Item evaluation should be reduced to extremely easy in a properly designed aRPG. This doesnât mean weâll have less build diversity and experimentation, on the contrary - weâll have more experimentation since weâll save time from unnecessary calculations.
Shad, some quick quiz for you (compare time spent on 1] and 2]):
1] 5 + 8 = ?
2] 533 x 808 = ?
The multiplication is not harder. You just used larger numbers.
Like
1] 12342341414414414423 + 6524532423532562 = ?
Please tell me you understand this.
Anyway you can always just split them into smaller numbers to make it easier again: 533 x 8=4264 x 100 = 426400 + 4264 = 430664
(or 5x8x100 + 33x8 if the first one also needed to be simplified)
The real problem though is that what you would intuit is not even near to reality and somehow exactly these kind of leg affixes as Rimehearts are not shown in your dps calc by game. Now that is sinning to new players, even if they are good at math. It becomes a hidden mechanic with serious game play ramifications or to become aware these mechanics even exist you need to go outside of the game.
There is a problem if you only use simplified maths as devs to give enough variebility and give items the chance to do about the same damage in different ways. Being to predictable and easy takes away variety, just the players should have the info that shows him to enable him to intuit whether an item is good or sucks, without having to do the complex maths or even simple maths for that. For inexperienced players you do a bit more handholding at start of the new mechanic to enable to get a feel for it and when you have taught him/her that you stop the handholding.
