Sounds very much like gameplay. Hopefully you are also not able to do what you were trying to do, as efficiently, when running around. So the running around comes with a cost.
Agreed.
All monsters should get a challenge boost. Maybe some affixes should get a challenge decrease. So monsters themselves have more of an impact overall.
Yeah, sadly. Much of D3s problems stems from serious balance issues.
D3 elite affixes are a mess in current D3. Doesnt mean the concept was bad imo.
I think the solution about the “realism” concern should be tied to the monster families.
Like, lets say the game got 40 different elite affixes. 20 of these are not mere buffs (like attack speed, movement speed, life steal etc. that works for all enemies), so affixes like arcane lasers, mortar etc.
Give each of those a reskin for each monster family.
So an undead monster got one version of arcane enhanced; like a haunting spirit circling around, while a cannibal got another; maybe a spinning blade trap. For the most part they work exactly the same, maybe a few exceptions here and there, and are just thematic reskins fitting each moster family. They could also deal different dmg types of course.
Yes, we could also only allow cannibals to use some elite affixes etc. But that just feels limiting. Especially if Blizzard goes through with their claim of having dungeons and areas have themes and monster types that fit. That means each monster family needs a lot more diversity, since you cant rely on as many different enemy types being around (I hope they just throw the whole idea out in end-game, sure, it sounds nice for world-building to have enemies be bound to locations, but it seems quite bad for interesting gameplay).
Maybe, since it was in a dungeon… but it was also lvl40 gameplay and in D3 elites gain more affixes depending on the level.
My guess would be they just simplified the system. Instead of the whole pack having the same 4 affixes, each member has its own affix and they are clearly no as sturdy as in D3. Hopefully because they rebalanced in favor of normal monsters.
Absolutely. In D3 there are monster types that have unique skills like the fat ones in act3 that give themselves “shield” or the shamans that can respawn fallens, the charging beasts, etc… and you can recognize the type of monster and predict their ability and it makes so much more sense but it doesn’t make sense for melee elites to spawn laser beams like crazy. All the immersion is gone.
Also, if you are a ranged class and engage a mortar melee enemies for example, all the planning and tactical positioning goes in the bin since they can just throw mortar at you. Isn’t that just stupid?
I’m totally against elites as done in Diablo 2 and especially in Diablo 3. Elites should just be a badder version of the regular mob. Fallen shaman revives 1 and casts fire ball from a distance while kiting. Elite fallen shaman should revive 3 and casts meteor instead. And elite fallen brute would be a lot like regular brute but would instead do barbarians seismic slam for more damage and able to hit you from further range. And then do that for every mob type but have plentiful mobs like maybe even two or four or five different types of fallen shaman.
On top of that I think it would be okay to select randomly one stat to be boosted for the elite (above the normal boost in all stats), one resist, hp, damage, movement speed etc. Should be pretty normal stuff.
To be honest although I agree with that take on Elites, I also tend to see some other problem/s with individual elites in terms of everyone around is dead “1v1 forever” to who gets more durable kind of thing… Noticed it in GD specifically, like, all other mobs die in few spells/hits and the vs Elite battle becomes a “rotational CD watch” and could very well see WHY people dislike CDs, but really isn’t the CD fault but (again IMO) a problem with mob design i.e. the elite having mountains of HP (compared to everything)
Additionally IF a mob (regardless if a brute, champion, or elite) were gonna kill you, they’re probably gonna do it in the first 30 or 40 seconds or so, meaning there’s literally zero reason to give them MOUNTAINS of HP
That being said I kinda like the “elite pack” as opposed to “individual elite” from that perspective more, but then again BOTH have their pros and cons specifically… Personally I think it’s more about CORE DESIGN of mobs and monster families (rather than specifically focusing on elites), for example:
ALL skeletons take 50% less damage from weak spells (generators most of the time) but take double damage/effect from hit-effects & CCs, that IMMEDIATELY tells you what you should be doing vs these baddies… And then an ELITE has that giant shield that simply doesn’t allow you to hit-effect it at all (frontally) unless it’s about to take a swing, OR IDK say all Spirits deal less damage the more mana they have but as soon as they start depleting the pool they get more and more “disturbed” and start hurting notably (the idea would be to snipe as many as possible as fast as possible, if you allow them “cast” whatever stuff they’re doing then they’ll really start hurting eventually, and then the ELITE one simply having that “punishment” ability that takes away mana from other spirits nearby aggravating them much more frequently and it having higher tier spells or sth…) e.t.c.
I mean I guess EVENTUALLY most (if not all) fights are gonna become that 1v1 “endurance contest”, but it’s still kinda cool to keep in mind and find some way/s to address those things (i.e. better the elite be below or about 30% HP when the “1v1 fight” starts, as opposed to 90% or whatever HP)
Might be a bit of derail at this point but here’s one more point I’d like to make/point-out tbh:
IDK if it’s just me, but would really prefer them make the game unbeatable for the masses (yes, including me lol)
Perhaps almost unbeatable at release and then just tune down some particularly tricky spots. And yes, one very important thing to nail perfectly is the importance of deaths to not feel like a bunch of “cheap BS cheatcodes”, so THAT’s the most important thing, make all the obstacles super hard but fair (and consistent in behavior) most of the time also
Seems quite widely that “unbeatable” is relative a term though, what might make weeks for us could take minutes or a couple of hours for some elite asian dude streamer, and the “weeks to beat the game” could mean several days for some “pro”/streamer :P, still, would prefer the game HEAVILY EMPHASIZE on gameplay and skill and resource consumption optimization, therefore the important point/message I have is:
Would rather play a one boss or one checkpoint 30 times, than farm it 30 times to gain loot
Agreed, it turns the attention to this dumb thing on the ground instead of the actual monster. It also makes them feel more generic. We wind up with a bunch of circles and spinning beams all over the battlefield. It feels bad and looks awful.
qft. I’m getting this bad vibe from the monster affixes and it’s been there since the 2019 reveal. It really does look like they’re using the same formula seen in D3, just with distinguished monster families. The game looks good until you watch the combat: bright green and yellow numbers and words flying all over the place after every. single. hit. “DODGE!!” “435” “755” “Immobilized!”. Neon circles all over the place with spinning beams. It all screams D3 and it’s totally taking me out of it already. I really, really, really hope they tone it way down and remember it’s Diablo.
If they dont make some sort of fighting mechanics similar to D1 and D2, i will just lose interest in D4 combat.
Right now im playing Diablo 1 The Hell 2 mod and its surprinsingly challenging, slow paced and fun compared to original Diablo 1/Hellfire, with some twists of D2 and D3 on it. The slower pacing also fits to the Music atmosphere, if thats what they want to get back in D4 from D1.
Overall, game feels more immersive and tactical with positioning, using the environmental shape of the dungeon as an adventage with for example doors blocking the way for enemies to enter 1 by 1 instead of everyone massively going after you at once, many barrels blocking the way of mobs and kill everyone with bow/arrows from afar (any class) also, similar to shooting through jails with a bow without opening the door…with hit recovery, block and knockback, instead of dodging pure fantasy lasers or timed exploding ice shards coming out of nowhere like gymnastics/circus… 0 in-thought required for that, just reflexes and visually easily foreseeing incoming exploding effects.
While I agree about the affixes and some of the colors being very bright in a weird way, the numbers and such should be optional I am sure. I know I typically remove those, but my friend loves them. I find them to kind of take away from the immersion and atmosphere. Health bars have grown on me I think.
That’s never been a thing in the Diablo series. They’ve added difficulty levels after completing the story, but never made it anywhere in the ballpark of “unbeatable”. Save that mindset for Darksouls. Diablo is a hack and slash ARPG.
It would be weird to try and make a game unbeatable for most people. It should aim to be challenging though.
Dark Souls is a great example. Not particularly difficult, basically anyone who want to, can beat those games. Even Breviks mom. What sets the Souls games apart is that they respect the players, and know people aren’t completely incompetent. They dare to ask people to play reasonably well, and are not afraid to penalize you if you slip up.
There are plenty of cheap kills in the series as well. While I agree they ask the player to think, I don’t find the series, nor any of the derivatives actually hard. It’s more of a time waster just learning patterns and whittling a way at the boss until dead. I find some areas of platforming games harder than anything Dark Souls, but, often they require better timing IMO.
Indeed. That is what make them work so well. They are not particularly difficult. Nor do they require basically any kind of reaction time or twitch-based combat. I mean, you need to have some reaction time, like most non-turn based games, but not much at all. Allowing everyone to participate.
Sadly most games that do that, only manage it by making the game dumb, with the devs being afraid to expect their players to ever learn anything.
At the other end of the spectrum there are a ton of games trying to be difficult, even some misguided Souls-likes among them, but very often platforming games as you mention. They mostly manage to feel unreasonable instead.
Cant really think of many cheap kills in the games. Well, the dragon breathing fire on the bridge could be considered a bit cheap I guess, but also not really, plenty of warning signs are given.
Thinking mostly non boss stuff, can’t remember which game, but your on a ledge with archers in the distance, you get to a little 90 degree angle in your path and you get kicked off. That type of stuff.
But that’s in a lot of games, to teach you to watch your step, so next time you try something different and you think it may happen each time so you are prepared. It’s still cheap, even if it’s to learn you the game.
Ah, yeah people hate that one, in Dark Souls 1. Can’t say it really felt unfair or cheap imo. You just have to get away from the idea that you need to defeat them. Run, and dont dare to stop, solves the problem perfectly. It isn’t even to teach you the game, since you dont ever encounter anything like that setup anywhere else in the game. More like a unique puzzle of how you get through that specific challenge.
Diablo shouldn’t have set pieces like that, well, at least not outside the campaign, since one-off set pieces does not fit well with randomly generated, endlessly farmable A-RPG content. But it should try to aim for similar experiences through the RNG.
Like meeting a group of multiple types of enemies, with a set of elite affixes, complementing each other for a unique challenge that pushes you to try new approaches to beat them. Instead of just ‘do the exact same thing you did against the previous 1031234 enemy groups’.
) topic didn’t hurt anybody 
), keep the main discussion here as is…