Of course, that’s why not all human are Druids and not all Fallen brute can cast Arcane beam.
I don’t think the official lore stated that Fallen can’t use arcane power.
Fortunately I never played melee before the patch. ^^
But I had my share of deaths with the Willowisps. And the worst of them were unique packs, which is only logical since they are stronger than their normal counterparts.
I just saw a video yesterday, posted in another thread, where an enigma hammerdin TPed mindlessly, killing everything easily, then almost died from a Blood Lord pack, despite his 2500+ Health. Something the player clearly considered as far more dealy than an usual encounter.
Now I don’t mean monsters should only be dangerous because of traits. The game needs to be challenging with normal monsters first, then add traits to create variety and even deadlier encounters. Nothing like how D3 shipped with elites being the only challenge…
I kinda tend to think the reverse tbh, the affixes were “fine” but my problem is that they were EXCLUSIVELY and SPECIFICALLY reserved for Elites… I’d in fact like to see a champion knight/brute that has Waller but isn’t elite, or a champion/brute hunter that’s not elite but has jailer… Vortex was weird and would put it as a hook/harpoon from another mob type instead and most of the desecrator/plague things should’ve been placed more on regular mobs as well
The tradeoff ?, reduce the mob numbers, we don’t need 100+ mobs on one screen at any point in time (unless at some very certain/specific places such as fighting Iskatu for ex.) ffs
Actually it’s more like all non-Druid humans are unable to use Druid techniques and all Fallen Brutes are unable to cast arcane beam (or shouldn’t be able to based on lore).
In lore, Arcane power is another aspect of magic, and also in lore the only Fallen that can use magic are the Fallen Shamans. So Fallen Brutes being able to use magic, let alone Arcane magic, contradicts the lore unless the Brute is a subspecies, not an elite (because the only thing an elite Brute should possess is greater strength), but an actual subspecies.
Yeah, during that time, I played as a wolf Druid, and because of it, I died a lot of times to the point where I had to have a Necromancer friend come in to help me out there.
The only thing here is that the elite traits shouldn’t contradict the monsters in-game lore just for the sake of added difficulty, especially if there were better ways to implement said difficulties.
I agree, that’s something I had in mind before Blizzconline. But since they seem to have changed the number of traits an elite can have from 4 to 1, it wouldn’t make elites that special.
Note that a few monsters in D3 have abilities similar to a reduced trait : the spider’s poison puddle, the fireball lobs of lacunis that work like Mortar or Diablo’s Bone prison which is basically a fixed Jailer. ^^
I’d like it if, in D4, they better balanced monster abilities so they are just as dangerous as elite traits.
I understand your logic, it just seems arbitrary to blame only D3 and not D2. What in the lore justifies that a regular skeleton, blood hawk or a swarm of insects can use Necromancer and Paladin abilities, sometimes both at the same time ?
Anyway, nothing in the lore says Fallen Brutes or any other monster can’t learn Arcane magic or any other power if they are elite (a concept specific for monsters, there’s no Druid elites for instance). At best you can extrapolate because it doesn’t feel right to you, and that’s perfectly fine, I too think it can be silly sometimes. I’d prefer if they explained it differently but even if they don’t that’s not something that would put me off the game’s world.
Yet I can stand in place, and literally ignore everything, even in Grift 102…
So clearly nothing tactical. No need to kite 99% of it.
I agree with OP. There is no need for every group of elites to have affixes that make no sense.
As somebody who IS CURRENTLY playing through another Druid play of D2, I have no idea what you are talking about. Almost all creatures have no affixes, and the ones that do? They are getting that bonus from a unique creature that is buffing them. Its like having a Paladin Aura, but from the enemy side of things.
Meanwhile in D3, we have ENTIRELY MELEE ELITE GROUPS…with arcane enchantments, or the ability to cast a magical wall. That is, I think, what OP is talking about…in part.
This has to do with how RoS is balanced, which is : badly. ^^
In the orginal D3 it was pretty impossible to ignore. It’s just a matter of balance.
There are monsters called “Uniques” that have random special buffs in D2, including Teleport or Paladin’s auras (which makes sens as gameplay but not so much for lore). https://diablo.fandom.com/wiki/Unique_Monsters
Exactly. Uniques. Only one. And you can say, from a RP perspective, that the ONE enemy happened upon some magical items or some such, or has magical powers that are not normally there for that particular creature type.
Meanwhile in D3, virtually every rare group has bs magical effects that make no sense from a game-play or lore perspective…or from a pure logic standpoint.
“Uniques” is just a name, exactly like you can find many times the same “Unique” item. In D3 these types of enemies have been renamed Rares and they work the same way : a monster with 2-4 additional random traits and a bunch of minions.
There’s none as far as I know of, which is why I had stated that Diablo 2 wasn’t flawless with how they handled it either.
The lore suggests that the only Fallen that can use magic, are the Fallen Shamans. Arcane is a form of magic, if Brutes are using arcane magic in game, with no explanation given, then it’s a contradiction of the lore. Also, Diablo has never given any canonical lore explanation on elite enemies and why they have the abilities that they have. In fact, in DIablo lore, there’s no mention of elite enemies unless said enemies have literally risen above the ranks of their hierarchy. For example, the elite of the Fallen are the Overseer (due to their physical strength), and the Shaman (due to their magic).
As such, since the lore doesn’t offer any info on “elite monsters” or even tales of monsters using abilities that their kind would normally have no access to, I fail to see how a monster being elite justifies it using abilities that their kind wouldn’t normally have access to, when instead their elite abilities could instead be shown through having their already available abilities enhanced, which would better serve the meaning of elite without lessening the monster’s identity.
It’s less about it feeling right or wrong to me and more like the game established a world and lore with certain rules, and I expect said rules to be followed unless an explanation is given (in Diablo 3’s case, no such explanation is given). The rules in this case is that only fallen shamans use magic, and yet in game there’s fallen brutes who are using magic as well, which contradicts the established lore. Don’t get me wrong, gameplay is important, but not at the cost of messing with or flat-out ignoring the lore.
Yes, suggests. That’s what I meant by “extrapolating” : actually, what the lore says is “Shamans are Fallen capable of using magic”, not “the ONLY Fallen capable of using magic”. Which by the way is limited to fire bolts and resurrecting Fallen imps. If elite Shamans can learn other skills, I don’t see why Overseers couldn’t (though it may be harder for them but not impossible).
The fact that what “elites” are is not explained in the lore means it’s possible to make up about anything. What are these powers exactly ? Are they even magic ? How do they get them ? …
In a strict way, if it doesn’t exist in the lore, then it shouldn’t exist in the game. But I fear many other gameplay elements would fall into that category.
Only the bravest and smartest of the Fallen attain the coveted training required to rise to the position of Shaman. Their mastery of fire is evident in the balls of flame that they cast to incinerate their enemies. Their magical abilities also allow them to raise their Fallen brethren from the dead, making the Shaman especially dangerous when traveling with large groups of Fallen.
Only Fallen shamans have the affinity for magic in order to actually pull off spells and such. Overseers/Brutes lack the affinity for magic, but they make up for it with their raw physical strength.
Well since reviving isn’t strictly fire magic, it’s clear that they would know other spells as well. However, fire is the element that they excel at.
Elite shamans can learn other magic skills, while elite overseers can learn other physical enhancements. It would be like seeing a Fallen Shaman using an Overseer’s leap attack or whirlwinding around, it just wouldn’t make sense. For demons who excel at only magic, it wouldn’t make sense for them to suddenly use physical based attacks, even if they’re elites, the same can be said about the overseers using magic based attacks when they’re physical fighters. An elite melee Barbarian wouldn’t know Druid arts, just as an Elite human form Druid wouldn’t be as strong as a Barbarian or could wield weapons as proficiently as the Barbarian.
No, that’s poor design actually. If elites mean more than just being the pinnacle, then it needs to be explained, not just slapped on and called a day, especially if it contradicts existing lore.
What about the Phoenix? Clearly the lore says things bout them, and they are being of fire and they come back from death…with fire magic. So why would the Shaman be using anything else? It could be some corrupted version of the phoenix’s fire magic…since you know, they are corrupted.
But I am with Oblivion with this (mostly), and you both have pretty solid points…But Oblivion point out
Which to me makes the most sense out of anything anybody has said.
Me? I was just talking about strictly assumptions based off of what I saw in-game in D2, and what happens in D3.
As he said, why would the brutes of a race, who show absolutely no proclivity for magic…suddenly use magic?
You two took it way too far…but in a positive way. Kept it clean and productive. A genuine debate, which is exceedingly rare in the Blizzard community as a whole.
What other cool little lore tid-bits do you guys think should be changed/included in D4? Or maybe even fixed in the D2 remaster?
Sorry but it’s not what “only the bravest and smartest of the Fallen attain the coveted training required to rise to the position of Shaman” means.
Then why doesn’t Sorceresses know other spells like Hurricane, Fist of Heavens or Bone Spirit ?
Because Shamans can know some spells doesn’t mean they can know every spell. Arcane beams and such are not Shaman spells.
A Shaman could totally leap or whirl around with their staff, it just wouldn’t be very efficient. ^^ But Magic doesn’t work based on a person’s appearance. Druids or Paladins are physically strong but still use magic abilities.
That’s basically what I meant. ^^ But since there is no explaination, we are left with speculations.
You’re probably right. ^^ TBH lore is not something I think a lot about, it just came in the discussion. In the end what’s important is that the game feels dark and realistic (even if it’s not).
Fallen Shaman are fallens that uses magic.
Fallens can only become shamans if they received the training to become so, a training that is only reserved to those who qualify for such. So if there’s a fallen that has high magic affinity, they’re going to receive training in order to become a shaman and further excel their abilities. Fallen Overseers, who excel at physical might wouldn’t qualify for the training.
The Sorceresses actually know of weather manipulation skills like Hurricane, they just decline from using it due to the potential catastrophic events it can have on the area, since the way they manipulate the weather is different from the Druid’s method. As for Fist of Heaven, FOH is mostly a lightning/holy elemental move, as such it’s not a move that the sorceress would employ, however they have their own variations (Diablo 2 thunderstorm, and Diablo 3 storm armor). As for bone spirit, well that involves summoning an actual vengeful spirit, and since Sorceresses aren’t about the dark arts as the necromancer is, it should be evident as to why they don’t use such skills.
Where did I say that they were
Except a Fallen Overseer is able to cast magical elite traits at the same level as an elite Shaman. As such we’re to go by the logic that it’s alright for an overseer to cast magic even if they don’t possess magic, all because they’re an elite, then it shouldn’t be an issue for a Fallen Shaman to do those physical abilities with the same efficiency as the Overseer.
Druids manipulate nature through spirits, they don’t like magic akin to the ones casted by sorcerers. Paladins “magic” stems from the light and faith within themselves, and such doesn’t require the same astute studies that sorcerer’s magic require to learn.
All in all, if Blizzard actually had a lore passage for Diablo 3 that described elites as beings capable of using abilities beyond what they normally could, then I would have no problem with Diablo 4 repeating the elite traits that Diablo 3 had. However, since there’s nothing like that and Blizzard claims that they want to breathe “realistic” life into the world of Sanctuary, they need actually have monster elite traits separated and given to monsters who are actually suited rather than just slapped on randomly, if they’re to hold true to that claim.
Honestly, I imagine it more of a game of chess rather than a boxing match, especially compared to other threads on here. But maybe that’s just my perception.
I was just following your logic of “since Shamans know Firebolt and Reviving imps, then they must know other spells”, which I don’t agree with (hence my example with the Sorceress but I’m not sure my point was clear). And I think many of your points follow the same process. It’s just too deterministic for me.
It’s been a good run but now it seems we’re going in circles with our respective ways of thinking, so for the sake of the thread I’ll leave it here.
