Diablo 4 feedback - monster traits

General Discussion
102

In that case the “name” of the game becomes:

  1. Find out the best way to sustain with as minimal points at that kind of skills/gear as possible (and keep a few unused for some versatility down the line)
  2. Find out the best spell (or combo of spells) to deal with opponents super fast (with an exception of opponent types that are quite lone/rare)

It’s kinda boring after a while tbh, ofc. I’m not talking to make the “regular” gameplay beatable 20% so that it feels like you’ll never make it unless super spot on with all things, more like 60% of “intro” and enough of resources/deviations of build/gear but also a great “headstart” to make it step by step if you’ve not been doing stupid decisions or being too greedy to progress extra fast that far

103

First of all depends whether the extra-dificulties are considered as “extra content on top” or part of it, also, depends on what “unbeatable” means, and what “masses” is considered

The problem of doing it otherwise is that you completely lock content under grind/farm/whatever, BY FAR the worst decision… Cause if that’s the case people are gonna beat the game and stop playing (and rightfully so)

Dark souls isn’t the best example, the problem with DS is “cheap death” or “instant death on first mistake” concept is used, the problem isn’t the decision, it’s the implementation. Here’s a better example (IMO): Kingdoms of Amalur - Reckoning (KoaR), now though the game was obviously not designed to be unbeatable for the masses (not anywhere near DS in that regard), it had quite of it’s own tricky moments where some “it would be best to use my super limited super power/s right now just to survive for the next round” decisions were required. Another (better than DS but not from the genre) example is Doom-Eternal, now true, it’s not a RPG, it’s an FPS (a super “on steroids” one while at it), but there is A LOT to learn/take (even if just experiment do so) from, for ex: mobs that are immune to “non-primary” AoE but if you one-shot one at a time they drop a globe (or any other type of defensive or offensive limited power consumable), or maybe Goblins that instead of loot drop consumables necessary to survive down further… Really, it comes down to implementation, we’ve been far enough in the “focus” to know what works and what doesn’t, and I tend to think that “play a demo to win the game then grind or farm for progress” simply doesn’t do the justice of time and gameplay investment tbh

Also, the last part of your reply means nothing and is very bad/shallow and doesn’t mean nothing on it’s own… Not because “Hack & slash ARPG” isn’t a thing (or is it ?), but rather because it’s a label, and quite frankly likely a useless one while at it

Would advice to not categorization by label/s, but think each “feature/mechanic” of their own, if Blizz thought that way “hack & slash RPG has X but not Y” then they wouldn’t even have came up with a class-specific feature or trigger-effect runes for example… (or even a 2nd “resource” for the DH back in the days of D3 opener)

It’s recommendable to not “limit” functionality based on label (in fact it’s super bad mindset that hardly has any merit at all), for the sake of achieving the goal of making the best of most worlds possible :slight_smile:

104

That isn’t really the case in Souls though. It obviously depends on builds, but plenty of builds are not anywhere close to being instant deaths, well, outside of falling to your death which might be the most common type of deaths in those games I guess. That one is not applicable to Diablo though.
If anything, the slower deaths is yet another lesson worth learning. Slower deaths, combined with limited healing. A boss does not kill you because you made a mistake, it kills you because you made 15 mistakes and got no healing left.

105

But that was the thing, initially I was running to avoid those archers make the turn and get booted off because I didn’t expect something to be there. That is cheap in my books. Hidden, not expected, and deadly.

Open world won’t be random outside of maybe enemies and when/where events take place(after the campaign is done. Dungeons should be the place where anything random or procedurally generated happens. I’m not sure that is the case either. Each dungeon run in the demo was exactly the same and I don’t recall anything regarding randomness to dungeons.

106

Diablo 2 was easily beatable by the masses. It’s still a wildly popular game over 20 years later. Difficulty doesn’t equate to longevity. Fun game play is what generally makes a game last.

107

Agreed. But that is what works so well about Diablo II. I would be surprised if the majority of people who played the game beat it on Hell, let alone with multiple characters, getting the best gear, and beating uber Tristram. I don’t mind (and in some ways appreciate) the game being simple enough for the average person to pick up, play, have fun with, and “beat” the game.

I remember when I was younger and I beat Normal and got to level 30. I felt so accomplished and like I had done it all, but then realize, that is just the beginning for someone who wants to really dig in and experience the more difficult and rewarding part of the game.

You make it so everyone can enjoy it and beat the main campaign (doesn’t have to be stupid easy though) and provide enough complexity and challenging content post main campaign, and that is what creates that perfect hybrid.

These kind of statements always worry me, that developers will read these and take it as “make game super easy, dumbed down, simple”, when in reality Diablo 2 has quite a lot to it and is fairly complex, especially for all the under the hood functionalities, though the surface of the game is simple enough for anyone to play well enough.

PS - I think people saying Dark Souls above is easy are wrong, haha. I get their point, but even if you “only have to” observe enemy patterns, be patient, and be able to execute the controls and dodges to beat those patterns, that still takes skill and I would be totally shocked if your average person could beat those games.

1 Like
108

On Hell diff ?, personally I never did it, the furthest I got is act 2 in Radament’s lair but wasn’t THAT persistent to go on but really felt too much tbh… I mean, kinda stopped playing then, but also played some other chars & whatnot

In general hardships don’t divert me from playing the game and usually tend/like to try out different things and maybe try again after a while, BUT again, really dislike when actual content feels “extra” or special mod/kind, that is super bad IMO

IDK, might be me personally, but my drive usually is limited and want the limitation/s, just don’t see a point in games/content which is designed to “go as far as you want” rather than “go as far as you can”, or maybe the “go as far as you can” is still applicable but FAR, FAAAAAR too late in the future to even begin to matter

Just see no point in playing 200 hours just to get “stuck” for the first time, could just as well make the first “stop and be really careful” points within first few/several gameplay hours, in fact that will make you play more content in “parallel” rather than “rock on” with one/single char

109

I like that idea. That could be an interesting way to make things appear a bit more realistic.

110

I would have loved to see his mom beat Diablo 1 The Hell 2 Mod.
Watch from min 45:45 til the end of the video and tell me this is easy.

This exactly Diablo 1 The Hell 2 mod what is about.
Its challenging, slow paced and requires tactical decisions, retreats and definetely gold management since potions are way more expensive than original game.
Saving the game in Single player and Town portals are locked during fights or instances, just like in D3 so even if you open up a TP, you just cannot retreat to town.

111

They were not hidden, you can see them in plain sight, and they start shooting at you from very far away, offering a clear warning. That is not cheap in my book at least, just requires the players to pay attention and move forward carefully instead of rushing into their death.
A very good example of what Diablo 4 should be imo. Rushing through a key dungeon should have a really high chance of killing you. Early D3 also had some of that.

That means it is random though. Monsters are random, their affixes are random. That is the entire gameplay.

By easy I mean, it basically only takes patience and a will to learn. There is nothing in it that requires an average player to do something unreasonable.
Executing the dodges etc. in Dark Souls is quite easy and forgiving compared to many games. Besides, the game can be played without using dodge much, with a tank build and a shield.
Unlike for example twitch-based fast games that might be literally impossible for some people.
The Souls games do have some bosses that gets into that territory as well, but they can pretty much be counted on one hand, and are generally optional bosses (or DLC, which for some reason always dials their difficulty to 11)

Not sure how a mod, that was not developed by Brevik, is relevant for Breviks claim.

112

That statement from brevik is totally controversial and implicits misunderstandings…
Even if the game is easy to pick up that doesnt mean that his mom would be able to easily beat the game, even in vanilla D1 since the game requires tactics and thinking, and a mod even enforces them making the gameplay even harder.
I have seen many people claiming that D1 is an easy game but I bet you that the average or totally new player will die more than a few times in the game.

113

I agree. It is just a rephrasing of easy to learn and hard to master.
A mod still doesnt change anything about D1s intended design or difficulty.

Dying in the game doesn’t necessarily mean it is particularly hard though. Some games are designed around the players dying.

And that is exactly the kind of stuff I want to see in D4. Not the actual gameplay of course… More responsive D3 style gameplay, but with a pacing closer to that.
(I’ve also been looking at giving The Hell 2 mod a try since it was released. Probably will never get around to it…)

114

That not Diablo that’s a mod and not really what the game was meant to be nor relevant to the point… Did you want to have an honest discussion?

115

Was talking about the hidden guy who kicks you. The archers in the distance are obviously visable.

As for randomness, I was referring to mao layout. Obviously, random events are still random.

116

Dying several times being unable to progress, i consider that a difficulty.

Me too, I hope for the franchise to achieve this aspect right because its one of the most important topics next to itemization.

You should, im totally blown away.
I thought at first that the game would be easier since im experienced on D1, but its far from it.
Theres many QoL improvements like a stash with many tabs, as well as passive talents per level.
It mixes the good aspects of the three games, D1, D2 and D3 imho.

It is diablo

This is right

Its an addition because the game isnt supported anymore by anyone in Blizzard, and therefore are people outside the company that improve upon the game.

Agreed, just clarifying some statements that makes it sound like diablo is just an easy game and thats about it.
There is definetely more than just learn how to move your character, open doors/chests, click on enemies, chug potions or use tps.

117

They are easy games. Period. There is complexity underneath the easiness to the game that give them depth, but as the D2R threads have shown, it’s quite possible to succeed ignoring said depth.

But again, mods are not the game as it is intended, by which that Brevik comment about his mother applies. So I’ll ask again, did you want an honest discussion?

118

Perhaps that is why I found it harder as well. I always play speed/offense and no shield/heavy armor. I take the dodge and land blows approach rather than tanking.

119

Yeah, you can make the game much easier and harder with your choices. Magic is basically easy mode in DS1. Kill everything before it can move :smiley: Gets better balanced in the later games at least.
Tank/shield isnt necessarily much easier than fast-melee imo. The latter is more high risk/reward, and in the end, killing enemies fast is a good to survive better, so they just have different strengths and weaknesses. But for anyone struggling with dodges, a big shield certainly make things much easier.

120

Vanilla D1 is definetely easier, ill give you that but not as a warrior when you are in hell fighting against ranged succubi and advocates, like when you face off lazarus and before you face diablo, since they spam you to death with firebolt and bloodstar and just kite you or teleport away from you.
Have fun if you have no magic and fire resistance.
If you dont have quite good gear you are just doomed.

Give this mod a try if its so easy then, you will be surprised.
Or wait, you will and you will probably still insist that the mod is easy :frowning: knowning how you always react the same way like I mention in my second text below your second quote.

Whats an honest discussion with you tbh?
You are always in denial when it comes to D1,D2 and Brevik.
No matter what.

121

This probably makes too much sense for them.

Believe me, if they think a melee enemy should spam arcane beams around is a good idea, they WILL implement it. That’s how they do things.