We need more than 6 skills. The 6 skills is huge, to me this means the game will automatically be too simple.
Can you explain why you need more than 6? I played D2 a lot and PoE too. I don’t remember anyone who needed there that many skills. Even in D3 people used actively like 2-3 skills, all the rest were utilities (press and forget or use very rarely sometimes). They can make 12 skills bar, but it will be a distaster to remember what to press. We have that disaster in PoE already with its insane cumbersome piano-like flask system. When I played PoE I pressed all 5 pot buttons at once, because I don’t have time to select the right button in the middle of the combat, where even 0,1 second matters.
Last League in POE my build required more than 6 skills.
Summon zombies: once summoned, you’re done. But you still need to have it mapped to a button.
Summon Skeletons: Summon as needed, lasts 20 seconds
Summon Vaal Skeletons: Summons 20 skellies at once, including some that only come with this version of the skill. Kind of like an “ultimate” power.
Resists Aura: Upped my elemental resists. Good for survivability since a lot of the good minion items lacked resistances. Cast and forget, but still need button mapped.
Summon Skitterbots: Once again, summon and forget, but needs the button mapped.
Summon Spectre
Summon Carrion Golem
Death Mark: Makes all the minions attack the marked enemy with combat bonuses. Like D3’s command skeleton army.
Flame Dash: movement skill. teleport+fire dmg.
That’s 9 skills. Granted, a lot of them are cast and forget. But you still need them mapped to cast them to start with.
Would the build be different in a meaningful way, if you had 2 less summon abilities though?
My guess is, most such builds could be cut down to fewer skills without losing any gameplay.
I really wish for A-RPGs to use more than 1-2 attacks. But at the same time, it might not need 6-7 attacks. Especially not if the attacks are “more of the same”.
Only if there is no alternative and no significant CD. Both exist in D3 and D4.
Besides, the main reason why they should not increase the skillbar are the Defensive skills. To much space for them and you’ll be able to rotate them indefinitely, making the game too easy. It’s a subtle balance they can’t change at will.
What needs to be done however is to give more situational modifiers for skills. Like conjuring up a hydra could make you immune to control for 3 seconds, or your shouts add cold damage for 5 seconds, etc.
That is my definition of an ultimate. It is not meant to have alternatives. Even with a CD it will dominate, because it is designed to dominate (MOBAs/Overwatch)
Of course, Blizzard can add normal skills to the game, and simply call them Ultimates, without being ones. Then I have no problem.
Yeah, but if they design the game around using at least 3 attack skills, then even with 7 skill slots(or even 8) you cant just stack up on defensive skills, without losing other important skills; dmg, mobility etc.
I dont mind if some builds pick a lot of defensive skills though. It just needs to come at a cost, by missing out on offense, mobility etc. Which makes a skill slot cap a good thing. But it doesn’t necessarily have to be 6 skill cap.
That would be nice. More stuff to differentiate skills from one another, and make combat more dynamic.
You have clearly never even touched D2, let alone played it.
Figures. The only disaster I see around here is this thread. The cluelessness is strong in this one - and no amount of flags from your multiple accounts will change that.
Defense and utility skills are way more likely than attacks to be one-point-wonders, so I am not sure it would help as much. Didn’t really do so in Diablo 2.
6 active skills are fine as long as you never have to fill any of them up with passive skills. Skills like the Monk’s mantra’s, Crusader’s laws and Wizard’s armor spells. These are just passives and should never take up space on your active skill bar.
Active skills should be just that - active. Skills you ‘actively’ use. The D4 Sorc’s enchantment system looks like a promising step in this direction, but as long as they kept all ‘passive’ style skills separate from the skill bar, I’d be ok with only 6 skills.
Otherwise, they need 8.
Also, in PoE, if you really wanted to, you could actually activate all your passive skills such as auras and permanent summons and then remove them from your skill bar and replace them with other skills, something you can’t do in Diablo.
Even if not the case, why just not make these as consumables and shared for every class ? :), perhaps might make a system in which not all classes would benefit the same amount of them but things like “extra movement speed for 5 seconds” or “activate to regen faster for X seconds” could just be another type of consumable…
Things like that could just be set on another bar and the cool part is if they’re consumables adds another layer of strategy (this for some might be debatable but think it’s the case cause forces extra efficiency in easier fights so you can have “excess” in the ones that are harder)
Both mantras and laws are active skills (and tbh, how most buff skills should be designed; a passive part and an active part).
Wizard armor should just be changed to this type as well.
I think this is the case. Except for Conduit (which I think they will rework) none of them makes you invulnerable.
Even though, a big CD means you can’t use it in every fight. It makes sense in a PvP game where you confront other players, but in PvE a more regular buff can be as useful in the long run. At least it provides builds and gameplay variations.
Yes, in D3 almost every top build uses a “ultimate”, but we all know too well where the problem lies for this game.
If you choose 3 offensive skills, then the rest is bound to be defensive. It strikes a good balance imo.
But to be clear, I think any basic build has to use three categories (Generator, Spender, Defensive) and the rest is up to the player to choose some more situational skills (Hydra, Firewall, Lightning Spear, more Defense, some Ultimate…)
Maybe, but why 7 or 8 then ? 6 was Blizzard choice for D3 after testing 7, it wasn’t an arbitrary decision. My experience with it was that sometimes I wanted a bit more, sometimes I didn’t know what to fill in my bar. ^^ For me this means 6 is the right balance.
Secondary dmg type attack (single target or AoE)
(Edit: I even forgot generator/spender separation. But that could still fit into the above 3 skills)
Mobility skill (which can both be used offensively and defensively)
Offensive buff, enemy debuff or CC skill (stuff like shouts, curses, frost nova etc.), essentially anything that helps your attacks be more effective.
Defensive buff
That covers everything I guess.
One could even argue that 5th skill could be split into two; offensive buff/debuff and CC separated (however, you might get some of these as part of an actual offensive attack too, so adding them together here seems fair. if one of your attacks have a CC, you might pick a offensive buff/debuff. If one of your attacks have a debuff, you might pick a CC).
But imo there should be a bit more slots than the absolute minimum*. That is what adds flavor and diversity to a build. It helps define your strengths and weaknesses.
So:
7. Wildcard skill for defining your build further
Do I get a 4th attack, so I have both single target and AoE of my secondary dmg type, where I always got an answer against enemy resistances)?
Or a 4th attack for resource generation, so my 3 primary dmg attacks dont have to suffer for one of them being a weaker generator.
Or a second defensive skill for tanky tank build?
Maybe two mobility skills for a speed-run build?
Of course, this would just be the basic setup that Blizzard could design and balance the game around (expecting that everyone have multiple dmg types, everyone have CC etc.),
However, builds that do something else entirely, should still be possible, and maybe even competitive, with specialized gear, that can make up for any of your major weaknesses (like having no AoE ability or no CC).
*Kinda like, in games (not only MMOs) that uses the “holy trinity” of tank, dps, healer, party sizes should be more than 3, otherwise, the setup is always locked down. Some spots that you can use to define the strengths and weaknesses in your chosen setup.
…
As for 6 skills in D3, I dont think it is says much. D3 combat lacks depth. No enemy resistances, no meaningful difference between single target and AoE skills (AoE rules supreme), so no reason to have more than 1 attack. No wonder they thought 6 was enough.
But if they thought 6 slots is enough with 1 attack, then 8 would be optimal if the game is designed around 3 attacks. I assume Blizzard imagined we would use two attacks in D3 however (generator and spender), even then, that would still lead to 7 skill slots.
For me, Mobility, Secondary Damage and Offensive buff go in the category of Playstyle choice (meaning “helpful but not mandatory” ). Any of them could be changed for something else without making any build unplayable. Even more, many skills can cover several roles, like Teleport being a Defensive spell but you can also get a damage buff with a rune (or LP, not sure) in D3.
I have to disagree. It’s the current version of D3 that is lacking depth, because the insane numbers provided by sets and LP are killing the underlying systems. Defensive skills, elites, health globes, even the basic monsters provide some strategy, and it showed at various stages of the game’s life.
So right now, yes, the game is in the state of being a one damage skill + 5 buffs and almost no resource management, but it’s not because of the 6 skills limit. And that’s certainly not what the developers had in mind when they set it.
Hopefully teleport with a dmg rune/upgrade cant fulfill a dmg role, that would be wildly unbalanced. It is fine if it can bring a little extra dmg to your build.
Nothing should truly be mandatory, but the game can still be designed around the expectation that you have them. Like, enemies being really challenging if you cant move away from attacks fast enough (sure, we got a dodge now, but it might not be enough against some enemies), and while you can throw fireballs at those 90% fire resist enemies, and win, the game would strongly be telling you to reconsider that choice.
I didn’t say it was because of the 6 skill limit that it lacks depth. I said because D3 lacks depth, we dont really need more than 6 skills. That would not be the case in a good D4 though.
Yes, I just meant a time limited buff. Though D4 developers showed how to make Teleport into an Attack skill with Legendary Powers. ^^"
The point is, depending on the situation, you might use a skill that had a different purpose originally. In a well designed skill modifiers system of course.
Except for at least one Attack skill, I agree !
But at the begining of the game, the resource system + limited health generation of D3/4 make these kinda impossible to bypass.
Later on, you’re right, it’s the meta of the game that should orientate what skills you’d want to use.
Ok. Still disagree though, the combat system is a strenght of D3 imo.
Sure. I count those under the “you can make really specialized builds that manages to work outside the normal balance” mentioned previously. Hopefully it takes way more than just one legendary item. Those builds should require really dedicated gear and skill setups to boost your one strength so wildly, that it become workable, despite all the shortcomings. The kind of builds you cant make when you start the game, because the likelihood of getting the exact items needed is zero. Late-late game builds for crazy/imaginative people
Heck, even “zero attack” builds might potentially work, as long as we have a base attack outside the skill system, like in D3, though, imo, it should not be viable.
Yeah, agreed. Same as above really.
Most builds should/would be based around the requirements set by Blizzard: As in, you need multiple dmg types unless you love attacking 90% resistance enemies. You need a mobility skill to get away from attacks. You might need a defensive cooldown, or at least a strong CC, against fast enemies you cant outrun. Etc. Sure, you can end up not needing these things later on, but for a long while, Blizzard can balance the game around you having those abilities.
The flow of combat is a strength imo. The monster design, and tactical depth they offer in combat, is not.
Vanilla D3 combat got relatively close, but still not great (lack of resistances for one), but that was also the time where I think the game could easily have had another skill slot, without you just filling it with Buff #6
In D2, a lot of your points when into synergies and passive skills, so that is already very different than in D3.
In D3 the whole game is designed around sets and the builds they enforce, so that already significantly limits what skills are powerful enough to be considered for a build.
one Primary
one Secondary (spamable Resource Spender)
1-5 Buffs (offensive or defensive)
maybe a Movement Skill
maybe an AoE CC Skill
maybe one Support Damage Dealing Skill (like Hydra or Locust Swarm)
maybe a very powerful Skill that helps you dealing with Elites)
… which could translate into:
Bash
Seismic Slam
Leap / Furious Charge
Rend (imagine if Rend would also debuff enemies to take 15% more damage from your attacks and instead of 5 seconds, the bleed lasts 10 second)
Ground Stomp
Ignore Pain
Wrath of the Berserker
or into something like:
Electrocute
Disintegrate
Teleport
Slow Time
Hydra (as a secondary damage source that deals additional damage while you attack)
Diamond Skin (assuming it is much more viable)
Magic Weapon / Mirror Image / Frost Nova / one Magic Armor / Archon / Black Hole / etc
Ya know, does this maybe have anything to do with the fact its also being developed for consoles, which have by nature a limited amount of buttons? It seems like a trade-off to keep things simple enough for console players. Feel free to correct me if i’m wrong.
