The game had a 6 skill bar long, long before there were RoS-style sets.
Yes, and before that, you had approximately 3 builds in D3 vanilla:
- perma Wotb Barbarian
- perma Archon Wizard
- CM Wizard
⌠that were significantly more powerful than all other builds, therefore builds that âfollowedâ or were based on the structure that I illustrated above were never really a thing.
Also, at one point in time, it was intended that Diablo 3 would have 7 Skill Slots:
Yes, and they reduced it to 6 after extensive playtesting.
D3V had a few very powerful builds because of badly designed passives and items. There is no reason to think it would have been better with 7 skills.
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No, that happened before the Beta even released.
So if D3 vanilla had better balanced skills (with no unintended synergies that enabled the overpowered builds I mentioned above) and if RoS had better itemization without these sets, would it then have been better with 7 skills?
In my opinion, yes, definitely.
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Gamepads have like 20+ easily accessible buttons (through modifiers). So it seems quite unlikely that would matter.
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I already listed how an average PS3/Xbox360 controller can utilize over 50 button assignments. It was never a console limitation. It was a design choices. More than likely tied to the natural LMB/RMB and 1234 hand layout.
Probably. But a LMB/RMB and 12345 layout fits the hand just fine too. Or whatever else one might rebind it to.
Though it really should be possible to free up LMB up for movement instead.
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For this with 5 fingers. 1-4 is natural adding the 5 required movement. Not much though. I would like to see what they required players to use to change out the rmb skill on those older videos though. And more so, exactly what itâs intended purpose to have an inactive active skill, that you rotate in and out of the active slot.
Hm, am I blind hhere, or isnt there 8 skill slots? 1-5, LMB, RMB and RMB with some modifier?
A modifer for RMB could work too. But Iâd prefer a direct key. Can just let people choose whatever keybinds they want though, so it isnât an issue. If you prefer Shift + RMB, then you use that, if you prefer 5, Q or similar. then you use that.
There was a feature where you could press a button and swap the skill that is on either the LMB or the RMB to another one.
Letâs say you have Hammer of the Ancients on the RMB and then pressing the SHIFT button would exchange HotA for Rend. Then pressing SHIFT again will swap it back to HotA.
That is approximately how it worked.
I think that feature can also be seen on the D3 Gameplay Announcement Trailer with the Barbarian in the Catacombs.
The golden question, as well as statement are:
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What specific builds in diablo 2, specifically, meaning, real examples, if they or it exists, use 7+ skills in diablo 2? Can, anyone name, a build, like idk a top 40 build in diablo 2, that uses, 7+? I canât think of any off hand, and like many im on 20 years straight of diablo 2 never once stopping for anything. Just kidding about 20 straight, but obviously was around first half decade, then life, then back, then life, and the adult-way-to-game cycle goes on.
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OP is correct that Diablo 2 did many many many many many things correct unlike diablo 3 and 4 so far. So, its absurdly cool to see more ppl understand that diablo 2 is the model-prototype, NOT, diablo 3, but you know new-blizz, they probably never even met brevik and his crew, most of the d4 team, which is fine, but they completely lack the respect for diablo 2 on a dissecting level. Itâs gross, embarrassing, insulting, and extremely off putting for like wanting to buy D4 for anything but 'checking it out but doubtful".
Like, is that what u want blizz, us to buy D4 âJust to check itâ or do you want us to buy d4 going âno way, they got it, they understood diablo 2, and 1, and know what things are appropriate for a youtube-loaded, video-share loaded, streamer-loaded, age moving forwardâ.
To blizz moneys money but to make a half-or-less well made game, but know well still lug around and âbuy itâ just bc itâs new, but not good, is really low effort devving.
The real way to dev a game is to actually try to make a homerun and thats done by studying d1/2/3, and not doing many of the things d3 did, and this is not debatable bc if it was, ask youtube make a video instead of a counterpost on here, and see how many public opinion you get that d3 is better than 2 bc itâs not, at all, its like way below.
So yea CyoâŚi canât think of a build that uses 7+ in diablo 2, not saying u can either, but can anybody (WITHOUT going to youtube to look it up)? This is called if you have to look it up fine, but the point is to see if 7+ is needed off memory w/o youtubing diablo 2 builds and counting skills to see if itâs > or < 6. I know, non youtube talking is a age old way of communicating.
A top 40 build not some complete jank that is like, not effective or worthy. Like, you want builds that go with blasting Iron Man by Ozzy the best song ever, especially when u play it yourself, fits weddings well, not some jank that is like what replaced rock, new-era mumble-rap, its the worst music ive ever heard, zero skill, or 2010âs edm or w/e those awful songs were ppl used to slam on their youtube videos it was so like, anticool, but they thougth it was sooooo cool and they were sooooo top geared. lol.
See, diablo 2 is so well made it has 40 possible builds, diablo 3, has like 1/2 that, AND, theyâre not your choice, theyâre the setsâ choice, its sooooo illusion of building, partly due to static difficulties not happening in diablo 3, a colossal mistake they made it was so pleb.
But im a pleb too and i love playing w dolls so what can u do.
Unless someone can come up with a legit example of a diablo 2 build using 7+ skills, the wish for 7+ is like, off target. Itâs like, âgimme 7+ i want 7+â then its like âwe never used 7+ so like idk lets shove it under the cloth that covers the table, whatâs that called, a tablecloth, yea, push it under quick lift it upâ. Its like that.
Do what diablo 2 did, 99 percent of the time itâs the correct choice. Love seeing ppl who understand this bc theyâre old enough / experienced enough w d2 to know that, and not raised by diablo 3. Most the forums here not all but most were raised by d3. thats what they know, so they prefer it, instead of knowing d2, especially when it was before youtube, you could factually not youtube d2 early, bc youtube wasnt born it came 3 years later and was functional about 5 years later and twith was born i think 11 years after diablo 2. This is why diablo 2 has such correct choices it caters to the gamer who doesnt choose to log into youtube. Diablo 3 is alllllllllll about youtube metaplay, its required factually, or youâre bringing ur group down, its so amateur. Like, very. They didnt know, but theyâre for some odd reason making d4 all about the same newgen things that take away individual choice. Like, youtube gaming is old, its not the future, its the downfall of gaming, and thats why d2 is still and will be alive bc its playable no-youtube, unlike diablo 3 / 4 if they choose to copy 3.
Its almost like we need a protest group around blizzard holding up signs saying âleave youtube out of our gaming experienceâ for them to get it. Collecting items in D2, isnt youtubable, you can look up a build all u want but its not required nor does it up the chances the item ur looking for will drop. Yea each monster has itâs own droprate, but within that table you cant wear gear/skills that say âok, lets get this specific itemâs drop rate up within this one monsters loot tableâ. all u can do is up where you hunt, not what that monster drops, thankfully.
Thats why youtube isnt involved, bc if they had items that said âdrop zod chances plus 500,000 %â youd youtube that item and wherer to find it, and wear it, and what build, and then the game would collapse bc everyone would know how to affect a monsters loot table and have the rarest item in the game, but then it wouldnt be rare if you have that item, just ultra rare if you do not have that item. So its this specific reason why diablo 2 is not youtubable to the item-level, just to the area level, which is way less effective at targeting the rarest stuff in the game.
D3 is about greater rifting which is nothing like collecting rare items or hunting specific and different areas. Its like, not at all the same game, but both are called diablo for some lame reason. Always got to factor in twitch video share chatroom and youtube and comments section too into âhow are we going to make this gameâ. D2 was made before these things existed mostly, so, its core values arentâ about âlook this upâ its about âplay the oddsâ. D3s like, if you dont youtube you canât play. I mean you can youâll just po your group and be kicked. Or you play less equal content, severely less equal. Probs the worst trip a game designed. D4 for some reason is like sweet lets copy THAT. Lol, its like, super funny idk im gonna go do anything else but talk about how redic this is. I mean, yea, well all check out d4, but if they design it all bad, its like, sad to see a d4 get made for the check-out and not for the homerun.
I didnât say anything about the beta. You are right, the change happened before, somewhere in mid-2011.
I think increasing the number of skills would have unbalanced it further, but who knows ? Itâs more about personal preference I guess.
You mentioned âextensive playtestingâ and I thought that meant that you were referring to a beta.
Yes, it would have increased the imbalances further, but if the game would have been balanced appropriately and if unintended synerdies would have been dealt with (sooner, then having 7 Skills would have provided a better experience.
Indeed.
I am many other people were okay with 7 Skills, however, when this number was reduced to 6, the uproars started. In the end it is indeed personal preferences, but most people felt that 6 was too little.
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All 3 of my hc ladder characters use at least 7:
Sorc - RIP - orb, ice bolt, glacial spike, static, telekenisis, teleport, frozen armor
7 skills
Sin - lvl 90 or 92 - lit sent, death sent, dtalon, dflight, mind blast, cloak, fade, burst, shadow master, venom, lifetap wand on switch
11 skills
barbarian - lvl 82ish - frenzy, double swing, taunt, battle cry, howl, find item, find potion, berserk, battle order, shout, battle shout
11 skills
Add more skills if youâve found yourself an enigma, cta or rely on other charges. Also, there are auras granted on items (such as a lawbringer for my barb) or chance to cast powerful spells on strike or attack (such as static field or frozen orb for my kicker).
The only chars I can think of in D2 that donât use at least 7 skills are chars belonging to people that simply donât play the game like I do. They prefer more simple builds or to get by with less skills (or their gear is so good that they can faceroll with a lit sorc, etc which would still be more than 7 skills). I can hardly imagine untwinked builds besides maybe a hammerdin and windy that would be fine with only 7 skill slots.
This was incredibly easy to do because the majority of builds that I would play would use at least 7 skills. Buffs, curses, and minions are skills and fair play, just because I donât actively use it every fight doesnât mean I donât enjoy casting it or having it for the right situation.
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This was discussed previously too. Not surer if it was this thread. But a fairly decent amount of Diablo 2 builds use 7+ skills. Especially if you include skills from gear.
Checked my most recent D2 char.
- Tornado
- Hurricane
- Cyclone Armor
- Summon Grizzly
- Oak Sage
- Raven
Could throw in a Vine I guess. And bother to summon wolves. But also easily remove Raven. Could throw in Amplify dmg or lower resist.
Still, 6-8 skills here. Before counting Enigma too (which I do not haveâŚ).
And Battle order/Battle command as well.
9+ skills.
My guess would be that the majority of builds in Diablo 2 could easily use 7+ skills.
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Windy and hammerdin are the two obvious examples of cookie cutters that donât need as many skills. Also, put a teleport staff on switch for utility.
Yet they still easily reach 7+ skills.
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True, and you know some hammerdins are going to have a point in smite for situational use as well as some auras hotkeyed such as possibly - lower resist, meditation, vigor, salvation and charge for movement.
I keep bringing that up whenever people blame gamepads for simplifying controls. You can have button combinations, you can have input gestures (like in fighting games), etc. Iâve played console games with way more commands and shortcuts than Diablo II before, so really, thatâs not an excuse to limit gameplay. Especially since keyboard and mouse do work with modern consoles.
I like.
And not disagreeing totally, but am disagreeing on some things.
I dont think i clarified my angle enough.
I was thinking âactiveâ skills.
Not âall skillsâ.
So when you say âmy sorc uses 7â and in that are a defensive skill, i mean, sure, it deserves a spot but it isnt something youâre casting with any regularity, so its like âin the buildâ but its also totally ânot in the buildâ bc once u cast it (lategame) its done, forget its a choice.
Make sense?
Also, overlap.
Youâd have to specifically go over things like why is Ice Bolt AND glacial both deserving of a spot? Like, to hit 7, why are BOTH included?
IF itâs bc theyâre a prereq, i am sorry, i didnt mean to include pre reqs as âcountableâ skills i meant active, not skills that arenât actively used or could be used more beneficially than another that does the same thing.
Now if something like giacial freezes, but ice bolt doesnt, thereâs a fantastic reason why both would be included, im not going to youtube it bc im so against looking up games after a sorta-decade of hearthstone and online pvp, but surely in 2 seconds i could find out.
Things like battle shout, thats not even a skill, politely.
Not trying to attack, im just correcting.
Um, Sins, no experience, i only played original, not expansion chars nothing agains them, so i couldnt tell u what half those do as no experience in that specific char.
So just taking your sorc.
Orb, yes, needed, obvi, meta, it is what it is.
Ice bolt / glacial, why both, thats the big question.
Is there a clear reason to have both (not saying there isnt, i just refuse to look it up to myself).
Static, obvi, op, all sorcs ever.
Telekenesis, isnt that just for fast-grab?
Teleport. Whats that? Is that some expansion skill or something? Just kidding, obvi its worthy of the bar.
Frozen A.
Like i said above, this is a passive, an active passive.
So, yea, take away the irrelevant mana cost of it, and animation, its literally a passive, that trades for a skill point choice.
About items tho, item-granting skills not be included bc they arenât like what i was getting at when i said 7+, bc theyâre uses are going to be so infrequent its like exactly the reason why a limit should not be there (in agreement). But then again, couldnt they let the item grant the skill and it never was in your skill bar to begin with, so it wouldnt matter / would be useable bc it comes form the item not the bar.
So, thats why i question your sorc build and barb build, iâd have to know the answers to know if theyâre truly 7+ and if passives / item granted skills, or prereqs should count in a skill count to hit 7 for the sake of saying a build needs 7.
I still (outside of sins i suppose) dont see a build that actually needs 7 skills that are not from items, prereqs, actually a skill (battle shout), a passive, or an active-passive that is a cast once and forget about it (thatâs devs fault for not making the skill matter more detrimentally not just cast it once forget).
Like, battle orders was supposed to be casted semi often, not just once, or once a new player joins if youâre cheesing the game and playing in a group for exp items.