Diablo 4 - 6 Skill Disaster

General Discussion
22

So, one of the reasons I like having 6+ skills is not to use each and every one of them in every battle, but rather so that I can equip a couple of different skills for different situations. Perhaps in one fight 3 of my skills are best, and then in another fight later the other 3 are best. Instead of having only one main attack, you might have 2-3 attacks that are situational.

It’s about having more options, instead of 1 button to hold down to kill stuff, and a bunch of other stuff that is just passive or there to ‘nope the f out’ when you’re in trouble.

Few skills encourages mono-skill powergaming, where all you do is dump literally everything the game allows you to into the power of that single skill and only supported by the minimum amount of defense and utility you need to make it work.

It’s boring.

1 Like
23

This comes down more to battle design than skillbar size tbh. The part where you say “low skill amount encourages 1 skill powerleveling” is more of a consequence than design, the consequence is whether or not you’ll gain higher power by massing one skill than searching for synergies. That is also affected by itemisation design…

Personally don’t think that the “restriction” is the problem, but rather the fact that you can “punch your way” through everything, and if you can’t do it then it will probably be a “physical immunity” which you’ll end up running from most likely unless have to kill or really good loot dropping

This is btw why I suggested the game to take a more “tekken” approach i.e. encourage all classes to get in close range for fighting unless a certain item-combination/build gives high impact from range but at the cost of other things

The problem that D2 had (IMO) was cheesy mobs (mana burn ? - 1 hit your mana is gone, lightning enchant ? - gl killing it as melee), and the fact that it was mana-potions or bust for practically every casting class tbh. The problem that D3 on the other hand had was the HUGE DEPENDENCY on lifesteal or life return per hit or life returned per resource spent sustain. Therefore IF D4 wants to be more strategic is they should introduce “consumables” on a separate bar (potions, curses, blessings, traps, summons, you name it) to “tip the scale” in your favor but without forcing you to either spam mana potions or (in the case of D3) put everything on life sustain mechanic/s

I could very well see the game being good if the bar is 4 skills, 2 mouse skills (just as in D3) but then have another bar (like on a wheel and choose up to 3) in which you choose your “strategic” choice to “fill up the gaps” in your build. Could be HealthPotions (on CD), could be HP return potions (yes, potions for lifesteal as opposed to permanent lifereturn bonuses), could be Invis, could be double armor or double damage, heck could even be massive blind (that also blinds your character maybe) or haste…, basically stuff that every class could use to “add on top” on what they have already

Which kinda brings me to the following conclusion

The more I think about “combat strategy” the more I get the impression that it’s not really in the size of the skillbar, in fact doubt much would change with it, it’s more about having consumables that matter to use at the right times

Just for reference: D2 had them in the form of antidot/thawing/oil/gas but ppl barely/rarely used these…

24

Using 10+ abilities with a decent interface/keybinds is no problem.
But nobody said you have to use all 10 skills against each enemy. Part of having a deeper combat system is to use different attacks based on the situation.

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25

An alternative solution would be to have a swappable skill bar (along with weapon swap).

You still only get a total of six skills at any time, but you can swap them out for a different set of six skills as long as you aren’t in combat.

That would work for me.

2 Likes
26

12 skills would be too much imo. Too high a risk that you can simply have “everything” then. Which ruins the concept of having a build.

If there was a weapon/skill swap, maybe it could be:
LMB and RMB switches with weapon swap.
1-4 does not
=> 8 skill slots
Or only RMB switches, for 7 slots.

(actually, make it RMB and 1-5, so we can use LMB for movement)

27

It’s not that “everything” you could high-level, even if you have the opportunity to “select” everything… :thinking:

I still stand by my point though… Here’s some example/s why

I’m playing a Barb and instead of Iron Shield (or whatever CD that increases armor) I collect and summon Pixies, they bilnd archers and are immune to magic damage. Another might want to play a melee Sorc and still able to kinda do it if those Pixies do their thing to blind/charm archer groups or something

Another player (say another Sorc or Druid) wants to play with a hard-hitting Minotaur summon that stuns opponents from close range but take extra damage from spells

The thing you’ve chosen on your bar is what you collect. Some might want to collect health potions (or mana potions), some might want to collect potions of Invis and rely on crazy crit bonuses to kill, e.t.c.

Say someone gathers barrels instead, if melee can use the barrels to “funnel” surface area of fights, if ranged can maybe even shoot/explode those things

Those are the things that c/would DEFINE a playstyle, and FINALIZE a build… The cool part of having that kind of stuff (available for every class) is that doesn’t “gimic” down your class, like, the Pixie is no longer a “druid only” or the barrel isn’t only a “barb only” thing, and IN ADDITION, you no longer HAVE TO gather potions for HP in order to “feel safe” while fighting, you could just as well rely on your STRATEGIC ability/choices for survival (as opposed to just reactionary “drink”)

28

Not with limited skill points you can’t.

29

Sadly, it didn’t sound like you are particularly limited in D4. Blizzard said 30-40% of the entire skill tree, which sounds silly. That is way too much to create any kind of limitation at least.

Nor were you very limited in Diablo 2 until they made a band-aid with the synergy system. And even then, you weren’t very limited, hence all the one-point-wonders.

30

All I can say is All of the people who claim Path of Exiles skill system is a hot mess are going to hate Diablo IV’s skill system OTH some of them are going to go Oh Because Blizzard//Buzzard made it was done right Lol :joy:

31

I actually made a Concept Art Piece / Mock-up of a UI with 7 Skills, if anyone is interested:

It also has 3 Charges for Health Potions instead of a Cooldown for Potions.

2 Likes
32

:thinking: If Blizzard adds 1 or 2 more skill slots, I wonder if players won’t fill them with ultimates skills, which normally wouldn’t be optimal builds with 6 slots.
This may explain the restriction to 6 slots in D3 and D4. Even with a skill tree, I don’t know if it prevents this problem, if we consider it as a problem.

33

Diablo (or any A-RPG) should not have ultimate skills (as in skills that are better than everything else, and is what the characters combat centers around, like in MOBAs). Goes against everything these games stand for tbh.

So just remove ultimates, regardless of the number of skill slots.

4 Likes
34

I agree with you. But at the same time it’s the players who want powerful skills to be implemented in Diablo. Blizzard is only satisfying their demand.
Also, with the skill tree it’s going to implement, it makes sense that the latest skills unlocked should be powerful enough to outperform the first skills unlocked.

I confess I don’t know what to think about it. But we agree on the principle that it would be ideal if Blizzard remove the ultimate skills.

1 Like
35

Ideally, you’d want a system of ‘BYOU’ - Build Your Own Ultimate, where any skill in the game can become an ‘ultimate’ through enhancing it via the talent tree and gear. The look and function of the skill should also change as you do this.

This way, instead of having pre-chosen ‘ultimates’, every skill is potentially an ‘ultimate’ depending on how you build it.

7 Likes
36

All skills in Diablo should potentially be powerful. If you focus on them in your build.
That is different from ultimates.
Like, if Sorcs have 3 ultimate skills. If they are ultimates in the MOBA sense, then we will only have 3 main sorc builds, based on which ultimate you pick :frowning:
Ultimates are potentially even worse than D3 set items tbh.

Nah. Then it is better change the skill tree instead.

Indeed.
Although, the monsters and combat design in general, should strongly encourage you to focus on multiple skills to succeed.
So it should be more like “Build your own 2-3 ultimates”.

Like a single target skill, an AoE, a third skill with a different dmg type as a base. Though of course, it should be possible to make ‘clever’ builds that differs from the default, and manages to succeed without an AoE, or without multiple dmg types etc. Even if such builds might require more specialized gear, making them harder to attain.

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37

7-8 skills would be much better but I bet they’ll refuse the idea claiming the server traffic. This game is made for consoles and they forget even a simply gamepad has more than 6 buttons.

38

I completely agree with you actually that so many builds end up only using a couple skills or spamming one skill despite having the option to have dozens slotted. People want more skills despite not having used too many in past practice. However, I would personally like to shift Diablo into a game that requires a little more thought and skill diversity. Or at least have the option. I would often try to build my Diablo 2 characters as diverse as possible while still being effective. I loved that my druid could have multiple summons, buff himself with cyclone armour, kite enemies with a bow, and cast wind magic at enemies. But sometimes I would still shift into werebear for a much needed health boost and get off a shockwave to stun enemies in order to escape or have my summons swarm them. Building entirely around the empowerment of one or two skills and nuking a screen is mind-numbingly boring to me.

It’s a delicate balance though because I also definitely do not want a game where you can acquire every skill and upgrade them fully. And if people want to center a build around a specific niche, that’s fine. Having meaningful choice is really what’s important. To me it felt like every endgame D3 build ended up being the same thing albeit with different coloured explosions.

4 Likes
39

The solution is simple:

  • Just don’t make skills like Wrath of the Berserker so powerful that they are mandatory.
  • give Skills like Wrath of the Berserker the feature that they ‘only start their Cooldown after their effects have expired’, so that it is impossible to have a 100% uptime with them in the first place.
  • don’t give players easy access to large amounts of Cooldown Reduction.
  • only have limited sources of Cooldown Reduction on gear.

Maybe a bit like his (numbers can be adjusted):

I agree that 7 Skill Slots would definitely be better (I am a bit on the fence about 8, since I think that already would be too much), but even if the game gets build with console in mind, there are enough buttons and button combinations for there to be 7 or 8 Active Skills.

And if not, then they should make 7 or 8 Skills only for PC.

1 Like
40

:face_with_raised_eyebrow:Cooldowns is one of the areas where Diablo III went wrong everything had a :face_with_symbols_over_mouth: Cooldown! Let the :face_with_symbols_over_mouth: Player Decide how He//She wants to set up and play his toon his//herself! Just make the :face_with_symbols_over_mouth: game and let the player make their own choices like they did in Diablo I Titan Quest:Immortal Throne and all the other games of Yore when they did it right without trying to Over Think//Over Control everything :rage:

4 Likes
41

This Exactly This!Why is it so hard for the game makers and Dev’s to get this?[quote=“shadowcat-1769, post:40, topic:22413, full:true”]
:face_with_raised_eyebrow:Cooldowns is one of the areas where Diablo III went wrong everything had a :face_with_symbols_over_mouth: Cooldown! Let the :face_with_symbols_over_mouth: Player Decide how He//She wants to set up and play his toon his//herself! Just make the :face_with_symbols_over_mouth: game and let the player make their own choices like they did in Diablo I Titan Quest:Immortal Throne and all the other games of Yore when they did it right without trying to Over Think//Over Control everything :rage:
[/quote]

2 Likes