🏹 DH Balance Proposal - Come Look

[dmkt-1267]

@Pe3eWe3e-21492

So if you buff this builds without changing play style what do you get?

For Meta Trash Clearer – It’s either you have the Bazooka/Mundunugu play style (herd and blow up) or do constant of damage in high APS. Most of our builds are the latter with the exception of FoK.

Buffing high frequency damagers to a point where they are competitively occupying a trash clearing role will immediately show in the solo leaderboards with 145+ clears at 5k paragon. I’m more apt to recommend the following path, as I distinctly remember good solo balance between Pre-nerf Vyrs and LoD Bazooka:

The FoK Way
To get the balance right on FoK, we’d have to make it require A LOT of defensive trades in solo, trades that probably yield 50%+ damage loss. FoK doesn’t have these options and the proposal gives S2M2 a bit of damage and defense together so it can solo well in density. Because S2 has many open slots, and can include any item, it’s not the best candidate without big changes:

A recommendation for balancing FoK meta and FoK solo, assume the proposed buffs to LGF and the s2 bonus stay as is:

1. We first make a new bonus in the Shadow’s Mantle 6pc set:

The Shadow’s Mantle
(6) Set:
Fan of Knives deals an additional 7500% weapon damage to the first 10 enemies it hits.

2. Then we create another dagger that lifts the 10 enemy cap on S6.

New Dagger for Fan of Knives
Fan of Knives gains the Assassin’s Knives rune and hits all enemies within 30 yards.

Assume a synergy between this dagger and S6 enemy cap.

Using this dagger makes it harder to solo due to being vulnerable to CC effects from trading out Dawn – requiring the player to use Invigoration Gem for safe and consistent play. Players would essentially toss out Dawn+Bane of the Powerful for this new dagger. (though you can certainly vault into density at the right moment too before detonating)

Because it’s on the 6pc bonus and you are no longer leveraging Zoey’s Secret+M2 and whatever other defensive items, you are now starved for defense and have partial Vengeance uptime.

Solo Play Modes

1. Big Radius FoK: New Knife + LGF (Pinpoint Accuracy)
2. Small Radius FoK: Dawn + LGF (Pinpoint Accuracy)
3. FoK Spammer: New Knife + LGF + HPS (Knives Expert w/ Ricochet for Regen)
4. Impale and FoK: New Knife + Karlei’s (Knives Expert w/ Chemical Burn)

#1 and #2 play exactly as you’d expect, herd for 15 seconds and blow stuff up. There’s still good synergy with #3 because LGF is 15 seconds so even if you don’t herd so much you still get the 7500% to the first 10 enemies which is fine.

#3 and #4 are unique. In #3 you’d alternate attacks between Impale and FoK, such that FoK gets 1600% every time. The difference in damage between Pinpoint Accuracy and Knives Experts becomes negligible both are roughly 12% apart in damage @ 7500% when the cap is lifted.

In scenario #4, it may work best to go mixed element, taking full advantage of CoE’s cycles. Hatred return might be an issue with the chemical burn rune so creative ways to restore hatred should be considered.

The new S6 bonus kills FoK for Nats and LoD – it is 5.68x damage gain when the new dagger is considered. S6 FoK would probably solo GR140 if it could survive making it a build that’d be favored by higher paragon players.

The Other Paths to Meta

Do you remember how strong Sader’s Blessed Shield was at 100% per leniency stack? Chakram scaling could work well just as well.

The next closest we’d come as a high trash clearer is by making Wojhanni multiplicative, one could take a damage optimized N6 RF into 4-man push. We’d get 2GR lift from 45% RF rolls, plus all of the other DIBS buffs from group, we could move hellcat to cube and squeeze in Captain Crimsons or just cube MoC, tune our passive abilities for damage and run without Stricken.

You’d see 2Q+ hits regularly, but it’d be nothing like the devastating 300Q+ blasts we’re seeing from Mundunugu. While RF could clear GR150, I doubt we’d see 3-4 min clears with either of these skills.

[Anelyn-2346]

The problem with FoK is that unlike Munudunugu, you need to be dead center to maximize the area of attack and hit as many targets as you can, and even then you would only hit the first inner circle of targets in a density, while SB phantasms can be placed to cover most of the density on spot and still do great dmg.

On top of that WD can do it safely from the outside and they have better defensive options than any DH.

Maybe if FoK would pierce in all directions w/o losing dmg and some insane DR buffs added?

[dmkt-1267]

Hey Rage, i’m in reply debt…

@Rage-13139

provide any insight on why you brought the numbers on this build or that build up to the point that you did, and not higher or lower.

@dmkt-1267

if some builds are too flagrant they might get nerfed, or worse, they stay and nobody will play the rest.

What more can I say? I try to be humble with the power, but not with the quantity of requests. A good amount of players ask to target GR140. So i’ll revisit the list and figure out a way to safely bump these numbers by another 60-100%. I hope everyone can keep in mind the REALLY skilled players out there who will break through these ceilings if given the opportunity, and equally talented theorycrafters who can squeeze another GR or two just by optimizing the builds further than anticipated their final form.

@Rage-13139

“well, in order to get the multipliers where I wanted for builds A and B, builds C and D also ended up getting buffed by a certain amount”.

YES, that’s totally how it goes! I want to solve problems and make new builds, every skill having a path to be competitive with the next, each build able to take a fair amount of punishment in highers GR based on how they are played.

@Rage-13139

But for others, particularly old favorites like UE MS and S6 Impale, as well as currently terrible builds like M6 EA, I was curious how you picked the particular end points that you did.

The goal was intra class balance, Rapid Fire was the benchmark. If we made Wojhanni multiplicative, what would the max clear be @ 5k paragon? It turned out to be GR135. but this might step up to 143-144 for a 10k paragon guy.
After saying that, i see this was flawed because RF gets a lift by adding CoE.

@Rage-13139

Also: have you given much thought to the balance between two builds that might have a similar top-end clear, but vastly different fishing requirements? UE MS and S6 Impale are again a good example. To really get close to “max potential” with the former, you probably have to pour in 500-1000 keys, while with Impale you probably only need 100-200 keys to find an equally optimal rift. As a result, you end up with S6 having a considerably higher average clear, even if the top clears are nearly the same.

Regarding specific builds being better at trash vs single targets vs guardians. If i increase power through damage % mods i’m going to get a decrease in kill time or clear time. If i add APS to a build, it will impact clear time and also the rift guardian kill time.

People have always preferred S6 Impale, even back when it rivaled UE6 Grenades. Like Multishot, UE6 grenades had a higher clear ceiling. In that era someone did an incredible GR108 clear that would never be matched by Impale. Was this fair? IMHO – no it wasn’t. We’re in a similar place now, but the difference is both builds are weaker than those clearing GR140+ – not many are really fixated on this detail – but personally i was glad to see similar clears across most of the paragon spectrum.

Provided neither offer terrible gameplay (where you always die from taking 1 hit or some wonky play style) the number of keys doesn’t matter, the clear potential is most important. So I have no issue with 200 keys vs 600 keys, a player who is dedicated to pushing their build won’t mind this either. There’s a major luck component to getting double festerings, high density / right trash type, safe elites, no juggs, no spinners, conduit in the middle, power pylon at the end – the RNG for this Is bigger influence than the actual build because both MS and Impale can see their best possible clears with very similar maps.

I hope this gets across the thought process behind this whole thing – thanks again for all of your help.

[Kilometer-11340]

@StriDer-1990

Glad we got someone like dmkt looking out for us DHs with posts like this.

True enough. If only there is someone does the same for Necromancer.

[Anelyn-2346]

LordFluffy is the person, he’s been very active in Necro forums with various buffs / changes proposals (mega threads etc) as well as always trying new builds / combos each season and providing safe GR100 builds and speeds for all necro players.

Cheers!

[Mortred-22918]

…
PLUS from me
…

Well written Sir!

The DH community had so many good ideas and discussions.
We provided pretty much information and thoughts about everything.

Now it is Blizzards time to enhance current builds and provide new powers to old and weak builds.

Good luck for all of us!

Hungering Arrow great again?

[Pe3eWe3e-21492]

@dmkt-1267

For Meta Trash Clearer – It’s either you have the Bazooka/Mundunugu play style (herd and blow up) or do constant of damage in high APS. Most of our builds are the latter with the exception of FoK.

One more exception could be spike trap if they choose to center new build around it.

At this point everything is speculation. What we can do now is wait for PTR and reactivate then and test what is available there.

[SpicyMeat-2651]

I really hope this topic will be brought to the attention of the devs, love the creativity.

However, as a big fan of shooting flaming skulls with Elemental Arrow I hope that your suggestion for Kridershot will not be implemented . I rather see only the damage increase as there is no way to CC with that rune.
On Augustine’s Panacea I would love to see also an increase of the explosion radius, for instance with PUR or just a flat increase in yards.

[DiEoxidE-1987]

@SpicyMeat-2651

However, as a big fan of shooting flaming skulls with Elemental Arrow I hope that your suggestion for Kridershot will not be implemented . I rather see only the damage increase as there is no way to CC with that rune.

The reason for this is so therefore it makes players think of ways to get more damage out of the skill they are using instead of it just being a one button spam fest. Since it generates hatred, you’d want to have a spender (especially if you’re using F&R), so you have options like Polar Station, MS Wind Chill, CA Dazzling Arrow, follower itself, etc to proc Kridershots bonus. Pretty easy options.

Frost Arrow does get the luxury of being able to proc it on it’s own, however with the changes, it’s weaker than the other runes unless you can slot buriza, but that becomes a trade-off. It’s balanced in terms of effort required.

@SpicyMeat-2651

On Augustine’s Panacea I would love to see also an increase of the explosion radius, for instance with PUR or just a flat increase in yards.

That’s a pretty neat idea.

[Anelyn-2346]

Oh yeah pls! I have a perfect primal Traq’s wrist for it (in HC) and always wanted to try them out haha

Sometime next season:

WD: Hey guys let’s go speed 120, ya’know go and blow stuff up!
Zbarb: Nah you’re too slow and squish…
Zmonk: Yeah, we’re going with Spike Trapper DH their new set is AWESOME and OP, they insta kill density with 2-3 traps I don’t even have to push my buttons!
AoVSADdder: hey guys I can still come for BK right… right?
Zbarb: Nah, you’re taking too long to stack stricken even with BH spam
Zmonk: Yeah this new Spike Trapper DH blows the RG in like 5s
RandomLoD/NewSetNecro: guys what about me my new set / LoD is still powerful! Don’t tell me you are TIRED of RAT runs?!?
Zbarb: Tbh I sort of am… and this new DH trapper looks much cooler and they have better transmog items too ^^
Zmonk: yeah I never got into Rats so… plus with trapper I have double chances to get a good ancient traveler’s for my TR solo push!

All is good yes? \o/

[Rage-13139]

@dmkt-1267

I hope everyone can keep in mind the REALLY skilled players out there who will break through these ceilings if given the opportunity, and equally talented theorycrafters who can squeeze another GR or two just by optimizing the builds further than anticipated their final form.

Right, well, it’s definitely good to keep in mind not only the clears at the “Paragon 5000 benchmark” that Blizzard seems to have set, but at the utmost limit of gear, paragon, and player skill. The tippy-top clears with most builds already rely on a pretty small group of very determined and skilled individuals, who have probably pushed those builds near their limits already. So if those builds “mathematically” get +8 GRs as a result of your proposed changes, those players will probably not discover another huge cache of potential beyond that. That said, you’re probably right, “another GR or two” nearly always seems possible in this game, considering the amount of RNG involved.

@dmkt-1267

The goal was intra class balance, Rapid Fire was the benchmark. If we made Wojhanni multiplicative, what would the max clear be @ 5k paragon? It turned out to be GR135. but this might step up to 143-144 for a 10k paragon guy.
After saying that, i see this was flawed because RF gets a lift by adding CoE.

Yep, it’s a tricky balance. It’s probably fine, though, if some builds have that “extra tier” of power at high paragon… just as long as not all of them are like that.

@dmkt-1267

People have always preferred S6 Impale, even back when it rivaled UE6 Grenades. Like Multishot, UE6 grenades had a higher clear ceiling. In that era someone did an incredible GR108 clear that would never be matched by Impale. Was this fair? IMHO – no it wasn’t. We’re in a similar place now, but the difference is both builds are weaker than those clearing GR140+ – not many are really fixated on this detail – but personally i was glad to see similar clears across most of the paragon spectrum.

First: point taken about UE6 and S6 both being too weak, no argument there. But: I’m a little confused about the earlier part of this paragraph. The 108 was done with UE6 Grenades, yes? What made that unfair? The fact that Impale couldn’t go as high?

On the one hand, I can certainly see what you mean, if you’re going to operate under the assumption that all these builds should be capable of clearing GR X at paragon Y. Like: their top clears should all be the same, right? That’s what’s “fair”.

But, on the other hand, for those super-fishy builds, even if they do have the same top clear potential, there’s a whole extra level of added labor that you need to put in, in order to actually get that clear. So: if you have to work 5x as hard with build A to achieve the same thing you can with build B, some people would regard this as “unfair”.

I’m kind of playing devil’s advocate here. Personally, I don’t mind fishing at all, and think nothing of dropping 500+ keys in pursuit of a clear 1 GR higher. I think you and I are probably pretty similar in this regard. But, I also think that we are significantly in the minority in this respect. I see a lot of questions and comments from people about how much fishing might be required for this or that build. And often, if it turns out that more than 50 keys will be required to push much further, they pretty much just quit on the spot.

So from the perspective of an A (or even A+) player like yourself, who not only has a lot of skill with various builds, and also doesn’t mind putting in disproportionate amounts of time, just to see how high those builds can go, a group of builds may look quite even in power. But to those many “gentleman’s C” players out there, those “fishing” builds will appear to be 5 or more GRs behind.

This won’t really be reflected on the leaderboard so much in terms of a lower average clear for those fishing builds. Instead, it shows up simply as their absence, as people overwrite their lower clears, done with these fishing builds, with higher clears, using less fishy builds. In terms of top clear, S6 is certainly weaker than Rapid Fire, and probably a hair weaker than UE MS as well. But when I looked at the DH leaderboard in August 2019, 91% of the top 100 clears and 96% of the bottom 100 clears were with S6 Impale.

I’m sure you’re wondering what my point is. Make no mistake: I am definitely not saying that your approach is wrong. There really isn’t any perfect solution to this issue. If you give builds equal power by top clear, this is fair in one way and unfair in another. And you’re in the same boat if you give fishier builds a higher ceiling. This, too, seems both fair and unfair.

What I’m saying is that you may want to take a step back and consider the issue from the perspective of some different people. After all, if the main folks you’re having internal discussions about this with are Iria and DiEoxidE… well, these are also A or A+ players! You might want to have a chat with some of those C players, and try to put yourself in their shoes. If after that you still feel the same way, then great! But I think you might be surprised how much of a bubble you can be in, simply by the fact of being very good at this game.

Anyhow, thanks for the thoughtful response, and keep on fighting the good fight!

[DiEoxidE-1987]

Well thought out reply Rage. Great feedback.

@Rage-13139

What I’m saying is that you may want to take a step back and consider the issue from the perspective of some different people. After all, if the main folks you’re having internal discussions about this with are Iria and DiEoxidE… well, these are also A or A+ players! You might want to have a chat with some of those C players, and try to put yourself in their shoes. If after that you still feel the same way, then great! But I think you might be surprised how much of a bubble you can be in, simply by the fact of being very good at this game.

Anyhow, thanks for the thoughtful response, and keep on fighting the good fight!

There is truth in this. We do try and think about everyone in terms of the changes, in fact the FoK change i was in favor of, I was arguing in this thread to keep it because it made it more intuitive. Lessening the gate required with more engaging yet simple enough to get into mechanics is usually preferred and fun for more players. There’s little tidbits like this sprinkled in the proposal, but not put on the spot light.

Believe it or not, I’m in the “hate fishing” camp, despite playing the fishiest build out there. If i don’t get it in 15 or so keys, I’ll put it off till another time, pretty much the exact opposite of dmkt’s approach, which works well when we come together for insight.

With that said, I got quite a few viewers in that stream period (more than what I would normally get just starting up) and I was hoping more would chat and give feedback when we were discussing, but I can understand how people can by naturally shy or nervous around those more known in the community.

[TinneOnnMuin-1187]

@Rage-13139

Personally , I don’t mind fishing at all, and think nothing of dropping 500+ keys in pursuit of a clear 1 GR higher. I think you and I are probably pretty similar in this regard. But, I also think that we are significantly in the minority in this respect. I see a lot of questions and comments from people about how much fishing might be required for this or that build. And often, if it turns out that more than 50 keys will be required to push much further, they pretty much just quit on the spot.

I’m in two camps on this one.

In S4 I fished 700 keys trying to gain another 2 GRs on my Vyr’s wizard. (off-topic but I almost had it in one of the first 50 rifts, but made a bad decision and failed by 20 sec as a result, then never got it again). Didn’t end up getting that rift down, which was super frustrating.

Because that experience was so frustrating, ever since then I don’t think I’ve ever fished more than 50 keys. If the difference between 50 keys and 500 keys is 1-2 GR levels… I’m good with being 1-2 GRs below my potential with a heavier fish.

Partly a function of playtime too, I don’t have as much playtime as I used to, my life is busier now. This season is the most I’ve played in years (mostly because I’m working from home with the virus situation and have converted my commute time into game time).

On the other hand, while I’m personally not willing to fish 500 keys anymore… I also don’t mind that others are willing to and gain advantage from fishing hundreds of keys. I see Wudijo’s UE clear and my reaction isn’t “it’s dumb he had to fish that much, I’ll never be able to do that and something should change”, it’s “oh man look at the potential when someone who’s really dedicated and skilled pushes UE in a top-tier rift. But hey, it’s okay I’m not able to do that too”.

@Rage-13139

But, on the other hand, for those super-fishy builds, even if they do have the same top clear potential, there’s a whole extra level of added labor that you need to put in, in order to actually get that clear.

This is absolutely true for me this season with DH, so I think it’s particularly relevant. Time factor to achieve somewhere close to my top clear potential changed how I decided to push DH this season.

Normally I only have time to focus on one class (wizard), but with a little extra time this season I’m going to push DH too. Last time I seriously pushed DH was UE in season 6 and season 8.

Was thinking about pushing UE, because that’s what I know and love and have pushed in the past any time I’ve pushed DH, but the fishiness of it for a good clear really put me off. Decided to go with S6 Impale instead, for exactly the reasons you are discussing. I don’t have enough time to play this season to really push UE to my potential. Since I am time limited, I’ll have better results with S6 Impale.

But I’m not sure that’s necessarily a bad thing? It would be bad if every viable build for a class was really fishy. But as long as there’s choice, some people are free to choose to invest the time and push the fishy build to their max potential, and other players who don’t have as much time or don’t enjoy that aspect of the game can choose to play the less fishy build.

I think you see that a bit with hydra and Vyr’s this season on wizard too. I don’t think the top potential of hydra and Vyr’s is radically different, but IMO hydras are a more consistent build and Vyr’s is more fishy. There’s more hydra wizards than Vyr’s wizards (it’s been a week or so since I checked and I’ve since fallen, but when I was rank 36 I was the 6th highest Vyr’s, the other 30 were all LoD Mammoth Hydra). Partly because it’s new, but I also think fishiness is a significant factor.

But I’m okay with that. I like Vyr’s, I’m okay with having to fish a bit, so that’s fine. Others like hydras, like the consistency, so choose to play that.

I think we can apply the same thing to DH. UE is a really fishy build to get to max potential, and honestly, that’s okay with me, as long as there’s some choice around that. S6 Impale is a good balance for UE in that sense.

[StriDer-1990]

You have LordFluffy for that.

[Childe-1683]

@DiEoxidE-1987

With that said, I got quite a few viewers in that stream period (more than what I would normally get just starting up) and I was hoping more would chat and give feedback when we were discussing, but I can understand how people can by naturally shy or nervous around those more known in the community.

I just don’t have a Twitch account, so I was listening but couldn’t join chat. (And I’m not really interested in creating yet another account for yet another thing with yet another login.)

Unfortunately I joined halfway through, too, so I missed if the discussion even picked up my quixotic push for a Vault build. (Yes, that really is the hill I’m dying on.)

[Rage-13139]

@DiEoxidE-1987

We do try and think about everyone in terms of the changes

@DiEoxidE-1987

Believe it or not, I’m in the “hate fishing” camp, despite playing the fishiest build out there. If i don’t get it in 15 or so keys, I’ll put it off till another time, pretty much the exact opposite of dmkt’s approach, which works well when we come together for insight.

Didn’t mean to imply you guys weren’t doing your best to be conscientious. As for “hate fishing”, well, you may not be a glutton for punishment like me or dmkt, but you are obviously a very skilled and knowledgeable player.

I guess I’ll just go ahead and say that in bringing this stuff up I was thinking a great deal of Idolis, who has voiced a variety of concerns and opinions, and who, in his own words, has clawed his way up from being “complete rubbish” to being “not the most skilled”, and also “knows little about the game, and even less about math”.

(An aside: Idolis, I’m always super-impressed by how you pretty much own your weaknesses. You may be a C at math, but you are an A+ dude.)

So anyway, DiE, you guys don’t need to justify your particular approach to me. Like I said- personally, I’m totally fine with the “equalized top clear in spite of fishing” approach. But some other folks may have a different (but valid) opinion, either because they need a little help to understand the numbers and mechanics involved, or because… well, just because!

Oh, btw, you can tell Iria that when I said “pitch to streamers”, I didn’t mean you, lol! I think you are already in the bag, so to speak. But, getting some attention from other popular streamers and youtubers really can be very helpful.

I know some people think the Barb proposal Free and I wrote got traction because we bribed or blackmailed Nevalistis or something like that. But what actually happened, to the best of my knowledge anyway, is that we wrote the thing and then reached out to a bunch of those streamers and youtubers. One of them really liked what we had written, and forwarded it to a dev he was in touch with. And things proceeded from there. I’ve never even spoken to Nev, not once.

Anyway, just something to think about.

[PMG-1510]

@Childe-1683

Unfortunately I joined halfway through, too, so I missed if the discussion even picked up my quixotic push for a Vault build. (Yes, that really is the hill I’m dying on.)

IIRC - it came up but the consensus seemed to be that vault was best served as a utility/movement/evading skill since it doesn’t involve a weapon really. There was a bit of reminiscing about a time when Trail of Cinders was bugged (?) and you could just vault through stuff and it would blow up…good times!

[DiEoxidE-1987]

I was agreeing with you moreso than justifying lol. I appreciate your reponses more than you know. We see eye to eye in the importance of Idolis’ “role” when he made the first breakthrough GD DH thread on accident mind you lol. He was the perfect person for it.

And ya he understood what you meant about pitching to streamers lol. I was already planning on having the dicussion live, so we thought it would be a good idea to more people involved since some of us had a hand in working with the proposal. That wasn’t the pitch

[Childe-1683]

@PMG-1510

IIRC - it came up but the consensus seemed to be that vault was best served as a utility/movement/evading skill since it doesn’t involve a weapon really. There was a bit of reminiscing about a time when Trail of Cinders was bugged (?) and you could just vault through stuff and it would blow up…good times!

Without getting into all the reasons and math (linked in my first post in the thread), my point is this:

Buffing Danetta’s and creating 2 legendary affixes to augment Action Shot & Trail of Cinders doesn’t take that away from existing builds. It doesn’t make using AS & ToC overpowered among those builds because they need their slots for other items already. But it solves the weird issue that Danetta’s buffs damage, which makes it seem like you should be able to make a damaging Vault build, but the damage is so lackluster that build falls flat on its face if you try.

[Free-1746]

@Rage-13139

I know some people think the Barb proposal Free and I wrote got traction because we bribed or blackmailed Nevalistis or something like that. But what actually happened, to the best of my knowledge anyway, is that we wrote the thing and then reached out to a bunch of those streamers and youtubers. One of them really liked what we had written, and forwarded it to a dev he was in touch with. And things proceeded from there. I’ve never even spoken to Nev, not once.

This is accurate, if incomplete. A more comprehensive picture is this: We spent weeks gathering feedback in the forums, hashing out ideas, and filtering suggestions down to what we believed was realistic and/or necessary. There were a lot of cool, creative ideas that got left on the cutting room floor, but that’s a natural part of any creative process where consensus must be reached.

Rage and I took the ideas and began writing the proposal. This process took about two months, if I’m not mistaken, though I might be inflating the duration in my mind. Regardless, when we had a solid, mathematically sound document, I made a website. We then showed that website to the Barb community, and when they gave us some critical feedback, we made the necessary edits.

Side note: I’m still extremely proud of that site and the work we (the Barb community) did. Yes, we ended up asking for everything and the kitchen sink, and some requests (such as passive skill fixes) were as likely as a talking cat, but the work is sound, and, in the end, it was very effective.

Anyway, once the site was edited, I contacted Diablofans, Icy Veins, and a few other web sites. Rage and I also contacted various streamers, big ones and those lesser known, and some of them covered the proposal in detail. I’m still extremely fond of the coverage Filthy Casual gave us, and having spoken to him several times over email, I think he’s a groovy dude, and I love his content.

Of course, we also posted threads in the Barb and GD forums with links to the proposal site. We never actually posted the proposal here in its entirety. I emailed Nevalistis, and over the course of our discussion, she told me that our work had caught the devs’ eyes; the publicity on Twitch, Twitter, YouTube, these forums, and third-part D3 sites had done its job.

Eventually, I began to speak with Nev on a more frequent basis, and that allowed me to have more candid discussions about the concerns of the Barb community. By that point, however, work had already begun on our updates, and my feedback alone was not the deciding factor; nor was it when we fought against the Lamentation nerf. That was, again, an incredible community effort. In all respects, my communications with Nev, even when she forwarded requests directly to developers, was a very minor component of the endeavor.

Anyway, we were very successful. Over 3 patches, we received 7 updated items, a buffed class set, and a brand new set. Our intra-class balance isn’t the best, but that’s par for course in D3 these days. We’ll see what happens down the road.

I want to think that our success changed how the devs look at feedback of the sort given in this thread, but my gut tells me that bigger, louder, more widespread efforts are always going to be more successful, so I still urge y’all to narrow down your proposal to the essentials and get it out there to as many outlets as possible. I hope I’m wrong, but I suspect that one Twitch stream with a DH community insider is not going to cut it.

Forgive this long-winded post. I’m not trying to slap myself on the back. I’m trying to emphasize the incredible amount of work that went into getting Barbs buffed. It ate up months of my life. I certainly couldn’t and wouldn’t do it again. But it worked, and if nothing else, I hope it has altered Blizzard’s approach to community feedback.

I see a lot of great stuff in this thread. Here’s hoping DHs get major buffs next patch.

P.S. If any of y’all find my talking cat, give me a call. He’s wearing a monocle and top hat, answers to “Pumpernickel.”