For the five classes that have gotten new sets, the low end of solo non-season GR clears is GR 144 for the top players. This would be safe to target.
Blizzard balances primarily around solo. If it happens to be meta worthy, that would be an added bonus.
Passives have not been updated in 3+ years. This likely is a non-starter for Blizzard.
Buffing sets is preferable. The bonuses are retroacive and they buff more than one skill. The problem with buffing skills individually is the sheer volume of item changes needed. Is this ideal? No. If you look at underperforming classes that got buffed, it has resulted in one build to rule them all, because supporting legendaries for other builds were buffed bt not sufficiently. Some builds were left behind completely. By buffing sets, any skill buffed by that set benefits.
A. How many GRs does each set need to go from the current top solo GR clear in non-season to GR 144 for the top player in the world in non-season?
We donāt have all the data because LBs only record the best clear for a player. That is why I said Blizzard should know better how much more damage each build needs.
On LBs you can find this clears:
UE6 Multishot GR 135 @ 10856 Paragons - Korea ERA 2020-1
S6 Impale GR 133 @ 9641 Paragons - Korea ERA 2019-2
S6 Impale GR 132 @ 7927 Paragons - EU ERA 2019-1 - WORTH to mention
N6 Rapid Fire GR141 @ 8955 Paragons - EU ERA 2020-1
Multishot is harder to play than Impale and I think they are at 1GR difference when played correctly.
LoD Rapid FIre - I donāt know but it should be lower than N6 Rapid Fire and more easy to play.
M6 - I donāt know. No one is playing it?
N6M4 Cluster Arrow - No one with high paragons pushed with it.
Awhile ago, I did check all non-China leaderboards manually for what build was used. You would miss any clear from build A as the same player cleared higher with build B. I need to find that old file. My recollection is that Impale and Multishot builds were both 3-4 GRs lower than the top clears. I could be mistaken.
I think whatever benchmark of past build-specific clears that is used for āsuboptimal setsā, it needs a bit of a fudge factor in that if the set became āmoreā optimal, more people would play the build and the top clear will go up a bit more than expected.
Not sure about that. I know that people who cleared GRs mentioned above are well known in community and they occupied top or near the top spots for class even when it was more popular than now.
I toured all of those builds, each augmented and optimized. I can say the Rapid Fire builds are about 2-3GRs stronger, but N6 RF really pulls ahead when configured with CoE, widening the gap by another 2-3GRs.
M6 Cluster Bombs is squarely the same power as UE6 Multishot Physical, it is nice in density, but if the defense were better and it ran with CC3 it would overtake it. Right now it runs best without CC3 at 5k paragon, but you have to flee often. I didnāt run it with F&R.
N6M4 is roughly 1 GR underneath UE6 MS.
So much can swing the max clear. Even those GR128s might be able to go up another level or two with an incredible map: juicy trash, easy elites and pylons: conduit that kills 5+ elites and power finale.
Sometimes we play safer on those festerings because we are just happy to see them and want to lock in the win.
N6 Rapid Fire - Solo push build not used for anything else
LoD Rapid Fire - Solo push build not used for anything else
UE6 Multishot - Used for solo push but not competitive, used for speed solo GRs (lower GR than Impale but faster 2-3 min runs), Key farming, Bounties.
S6 Impale - Used for solo push but not competitive, sometimes used in group for RGK but not competitive, used for speed solo GRs (a bit higher lvl than UE with 1-2 min added)
M6 Cluster Bombs - Can be used for solo push but not competitive
N6M4 Cluster Arrow - Can be used for solo push but not competitive
So if you buff this builds without changing play style what do you get?
UE would still be the best for keys, bounties and speed solo GRs.
Impale might get the spot in group.There might be new build that is the best for solo pushing and is not used for anything esle.
I think we should aim for spot in 4 man speed GR ~120 (2-3 min) if spot in 150s is not possible. Would be nice if we could use something like Multishot or Chakram (or something else that has no setup time and hits most of enemies on screen) for that.
Proposed way of buffing Chakram would maybe work for Trash killer spot but it probably would not work for speed GRs.
We should care more about getting most Paragons, blood shards, legendary items and gemups per hour than what build we are going to use for solo pushing. What ever build is going to be the best for solo push it is going to be available to every DH anyway.
Great well thought out post. I main Barb but also enjoy DH. At least 2 of my seasonal stash tabs came from DH runs! Iām less familiar with the mechanics of DH so I donāt have much feedback regarding the nuts and bolts, but I will reiterate a few points that have been made.
I think shooting for the mid 140s solo seems reasonable given where other classes are now, and as we all know, with power creep thatās often a moving goal post.
I think the idea of a few changes, such as loading all the buffs onto set bonuses, while not ideal in terms of itemization and interest, does have merit given the reality of the situation. Barb proposal had many well thought out changes to items that were all designed to work together to bring Barb to parity with other classes while also retaining the good inter-class balance. Unfortunately the devs cherry picked just some of the bonuses on supporting legendaries, so while the builds did get a slight buff, they were left behind by other builds that got larger buffs. So Barb ended up with worse inter-class balance, but better parity with other classes. Sort of a mixed bag. Hindsight being 20/20, I think all weāre saying is that if you figure out the +GR boost each build needs, and load that into a single item, itās more likely youāll get the full improvement. Instead of say 3 items that boost DPS by x, have 1 item/set that boosts DPS by 3x. This way when you only get one item, you donāt end up with only x buff that was designed to work in conjunction with the other two item buffs, so damage falls short.
Either way I wish DH all the best and would love to play a DH that is given the benefit of your proposed changes!
I agree. Ask for a small number of changes that do not rely on new affixes or multiple items that can be accomplished by a buff to an item or set bonus.
From Rage in the barb forum:
I would go further in that it is not clear to me how actively Blizzard is checking these forums without a dedicated community manager.
Great discussion last night on DiEās streamā¦was really interesting not only to hear from some of the top guys in the class and how they analyze builds, gear, play styles but also their recall of old builds (slow ball anyone?) and how different game play is currently.
Personally, would love a boost for UE MS as itās the āgo toā for many due to the relatively simply play style and overall utility. I think thatās one thing that makes Rend Barb so popular right now - itās powerful, easy to progress (to a point where you need to fish) and when you really git gud with a few things (spear/grouping) you go higher. I know thatās a simplistic view, but thatās just how I see it.
Yeah, the reality of the situation is that buffs to builds that hardly anyone plays might be good for the overall showing of the class on leaderboardsā¦ but itās not what most people will play or benefit from.
A buff to Rapid Fire would do very little for many DH players, because itās not used for farming, and is only used by a small number of players at the top of the leaderboard.
The vast majority of DH players play either UE or Shadow. And then a smaller number who play Marauderās or its variants (N6M4).
Buffs to UE, Shadow, or Marauderās will benefit more DH players than buffs to Rapid Fire (or FoK) will. Buffs to popular builds that are commonly used for farming will be more impactful to more DH players.
Hey dmkt, I was just taking another look at your chart of various builds before / after intended buffs, and wondered if you could provide any insight on why you brought the numbers on this build or that build up to the point that you did, and not higher or lower.
I know that the answer for some of these builds is basically āwell, in order to get the multipliers where I wanted for builds A and B, builds C and D also ended up getting buffed by a certain amountā.
But for others, particularly old favorites like UE MS and S6 Impale, as well as currently terrible builds like M6 EA, I was curious how you picked the particular end points that you did.
Also: have you given much thought to the balance between two builds that might have a similar top-end clear, but vastly different fishing requirements? UE MS and S6 Impale are again a good example. To really get close to āmax potentialā with the former, you probably have to pour in 500-1000 keys, while with Impale you probably only need 100-200 keys to find an equally optimal rift. As a result, you end up with S6 having a considerably higher average clear, even if the top clears are nearly the same.
I think this was basically the case for the last several eras, and UE MS might have even had a slight ātop endā advantage. But I remember that in 2019, the leaderboard was nearly floor-to-ceiling S6 Impalers, not only because itās easier to play but also because it requires so much less fishing.
Anyway, not trying to grill you here! Just thought it would be interesting to hear a bit of the philosophy behind the numbers. And apologies if you already answered this somewhere that I missed.
I wonāt come anywhere near Wudijoās UE clear. The times Iāve pushed UE Multishot, Iām farther from the top UE clear than I am when I push S6 Impale from the top S6 Impale clear.
The other thing to consider is top push potential vs. speedfarming power. I.e. the other thing about buffing UE is that it could become a godly farming set, to the point where you wouldnāt really want to run anything else.
Thereās a delicate balance between buffing the high end clear potential of UE but at the same time keeping itās farming potential at a reasonable level. Right now itās a little behind for GR speedfarming where I think it should be. But it has a nice tradeoff with S6 Impale. UE excels at sub-2 min GR speedfarming, but starts to slow down as you bump up the GR level. S6 Impale has a slower potential clear times on the bottom end (lack of AoE), but runs higher GRs in the 3-5 min range more effectively than UE (at a comparable gear/paragon level).
A big buff to UE to bring itās push potential up might make it an ungodly farming set. We saw that a bit with Vyrās before the 2.6.7 Chantodoās nerf. I think we see that a bit with WW/Rend too. Certain builds, if balanced at the top end, just become extremely strong farming sets.
UE is one of those sets. S6 Impale is a little more linear in terms of itās farming vs. push potential.
I think UE getting some buffs to be a decent wave clear up to 120ās would be the best move before our new set releases (which we know nothing about). That way we could run speeds in various setups while retaining our solo farming power.
Either buffing the 6pc bonus to 750%, or buffing Yangs and DML to 450-600% should accomplish this goal I think? And also pls up Wraps of Clarity from 50% to 80% to help our pathetic toughness so we donāt implode the second a wasp looks in our direction or clan impalers throw a spear off screen.
Letās assume that +7 GRs are needed for UE6, M6, and S6 Impale (equivalent to 1X to 3X DPS).
(6) Marauder Set: Your primary skills, Elemental Arrow, Chakram, Impale, Multishot, Cluster Arrow, Companions, and Vengeance deal 120,000% increased damage that is increased by an additional 12,000% per active sentry.
(6) Shadow Set: Impale deals an additional 225,000% weapon damage to the first enemy hit.
(6) UE Set: Your generators, Multishot, and Vengeance deal 1050% increased damage for every point of Discipline you have.
The funny or not so funny thing is how outrageous the numbers need to be due to all the power creep.
That because you try to put it all in the 6pc bonus, however if you would spread the love to some of the supporting legendaries like I suggested for UE MS (Yang & DML buffs) then the UE 6pc could be 750% (because letās be honest here, nobody playing UE cares about generators or Vengeance damage, itās all about MS (and rockets if you go arsenal).
But yeah, despite having the hugest 6pc bonus already on UE (% dmg multiplier at 86 max disc) it does so little compared toā¦ Munudunuguās for example with a mere 20k% but also unlimited dmg scaling based on density.
Could be something like for every target hit by MS, you get a stacking dmg increase bonus oO - crazy right?
Iām not sure what the meaning of āgodly farmingā when it comes to buffing UE.
Admittedly itās my favorite build, and I see it, it is already pretty godly as far as farming T16 low to mid tier Grifts. Making it capable of running 5, 10, or whatever more Greater Rifts higher isnāt going to change that.
As I see it, they could buff it to the moon, and theyād have too, if weāre talking about clearing mid 130ās to mid 140ās.
As I said in my thread some few months ago, in order to play UE as it is designed to play itāll have to clear 120ās like the set does 100ās today. Weāre talking a massive buff.
Iām no math wizard, so maybe Iām wrong. I donāt see a massive buff like that coming though.
These are just my opinions. And they may or may not belong here, as most of the suggestions have more mathematical and theoretical backbone than just my gut feeling.
Then you run the risk of only one of those 3 items getting the buff but the devs using your same number like what happened to Barb HotA build that now needs more attention (unlikely at this point) to remain relevant for barb since the Remorseless bonus given was lifted from the proposal but the other supporting buffs were omitted.