D4: Legendary Essences ruin Dec 2020's Item Tier System

The ability to confer legendary powers via essences onto Rare items, as shown in the December 2021 Quarterly Update and subsequently confirmed by Blizzard, indicates the undoing of the item tier system presented in the December 2020 Quarterly Update, which has been widely welcomed and applauded by the community. This has me worried and I would like to know:

  • Am I misinterpreting the scarce information provided?
  • Do you guys agree that Blizzard should maintain the 2020 item tier system?
  • Is crafting Rares into Legendaries necessarily a problem for build diversity and customizability or not?

Item Tiers as per December 2020

The December 2020 Quarterly Update explained that Magic, Rare and Legendary items would each have different rule sets that enable well rolled instances of each item tier to have potential endgame value. While higher-tier items would generally be stronger than lower-tier items, they did not “want to end up in a place where the right decision is to ignore every item that doesn’t have a glowing orange sky-beam.” In other words, every drop should have potential value and no garbage items that are insta salvaged should be in the game to give the players busywork. Theorycrafting should be rewarded and build diversity catered to.

To make that work, Blizzard announced that Magic items could only roll two but potentially „the most powerful regular affixes, while Rare items get up to five, and Legendary items have four regular affixes and one legendary affix." From the example they provided, setting 16.8% immobilize chance on a Magic item to 100% item affix potency, it would seem that – while being more numerous – Rare item affixes only had about 65% potency and Legendary item affixes 54% potency (from 11% and 9% immobilize chance, respectively).

Adding up item affix potencies multiplied by affix numbers, Magic items could achieve up to 200% regular affix potency, while 5 Rare affixes provide up to 327% and 4 Legendary affixes up to 214%. Assuming Legendary powers are balanced to the power of 2 max potency regular affixes, which certainly is the most tricky part to balance in this system, Legendaries would total up to 414% item power.

In sum, the relative total item power of each tier would look something like this:

Item Tier Max Affix Power Total Item Power
Magic Items 200% 50%
Rare Items 327% 80%
Legendary Items 414% 100%

This looks like a healthy balance to me which has a good chance of enabling endgame viability of Rare items, to the degree that you cannot make effective use of legendary powers for each slot, and also Magic items, to the degree you value some very specific regular affixes much more. I elaborate more on this below, but here I want to continue with the argument.

Changes implied by December 2021 Update

The December 2021 Quarterly Update seems to nullify the item tier differences between Rares and Legendaries by allowing Legendary Essences to be applied to both. As a consequence, one of these item tiers becomes superfluous.

First off, we probably have to take the “Powerpoint items“ showcased in that blog post with a grain of salt. It includes affixes such as „16.0% Strenght“ (obviously misspelled and probably pasted over another affix they did not want to reveal yet that is indeed percentage based). It worries me, however, that both the (apparently one-handed) Legendary Axe and the Rare Amulet have the exact same roll of „16.0% Overpower Damage.“ Maybe weapons of any item tier just roll higher on this particular affix than amulets do, however we also see in that blog post that Amulets seem to get an affix potency buff.

Be that as it may, having Rares actually roll exactly the same or probably even lower affix ranges than Legendaries would, in my opinion, be consistent with Blizzard’s confirmation that Legendary essences can be applied to Rares as well. This follows logically from assumption that Blizzard “like the clarity of analysis afforded by clearly understood item tiers.”

If the 2020 item tier system remains intact, Rares would doubtlessly become the most powerful items in the game. We see in the pictures presented that adding the Legendary Essence does not replace but add the Legendary affix, without eliminating an existing rare affix. On a Rare with only 4 affixes in that case, but even if they brought maximum affixes on Rares down by one and also changed the roll range to be equivalent to Legendaries, the situation does not change much. Yes, you would still hunt orange skybeams until you found your desired Legendary powers, and even beyond that in order to upgrade to a better base perhaps for a different item slot, but so long as Rares can have better regular affixes, the real endgame chase items would be those Rare bases over the Legendaries themselves. If Legendaries roll exactly the same, the only advantage of finding a well-rolled Legendary for your desired item slot straight up would be to save the cost (if any) associated with the Occultist. In both cases, Legendaries may as well just drop at essences at that point. They become superfluous as an item tier apart from the legendary power. And since it will likely take you longer to perfect all desired regular affix rolls than to store sufficient Legendary Essences for upgrades, Rare drops outshine orange skybeams which is completely counterintuitive to the item hierarchy we have grown accustomed to. I am convinced that Blizzard will not go down that route.

The alternative is to actually have Legendaries roll higher affix ranges than Rares as they did in D3, which I believe is what they are going for here. The ability to apply Legendary Essences to Rares is essentially only a way to speed up the gearing process. Assuming that Rares drop more often than Legendaries, having finally found the Legendary power you were looking for allows you to use it with adequate regular affix rolls on a Rare instantly. You would continue to be interested in better or alternative rare bases for some time, but only until you found a well rolled Legendary for your desired item slot. At that point, since another rare base could never roll that high, Rares lose all their relevance again. To put it bluntly: D4 Rares become D3 Legendaries and D4 Legendaries become D3 Ancient Legendaries. The horizontally distinct and endgame viable item tier design is being sacrificed for a slightly extended vertical gear progression. To me, this follows logically if Blizzard wants to ensure that orange skybeams remain generally superior to yellow drops.

Maybe you can think of a more benign interpretation of the impact that transferring legendary powers to Rare items will have on the itemization system? I would be happy to hear that. Different affix pools for Rares and Legendaries could be a solution, and maybe that is what they go for with the new +Skill affix (see below). As for now, I have come to think that Blizzard gave up on their very promising 2020 item tier system with genuine strengths and weaknesses for every tier.

Keep Legendary Powers Legendary

The solution is simple: Do not let us transfer legendary affixes onto Rare items. Full stop.

As an alternative, it has been proposed to replace two or three existing regular item affixes on Rares when applying essences to them, either randomly or on selection. On selection would make gearing too easy in my opinion. Random selection may be better, but my reservations essentially remain the same: First, it would still seem too easy assuming Rares drop considerably more frequently than Legendaries. Secondly, I prefer to loot amazing items over pushing crafting buttons, it makes actual gameplay more rewarding. Last and most importantly, we do not need such a crafting option at all if Rares with 5 great affixes have value in and of themselves. This is really what the item tier design should be all about in my opinion.

Let us apply Legendary Essences only to other Legendaries. I do not mind that at all and actually think it is necessary to avoid stash space nightmares with the new random Legendary design. Moreover, it further serves to eliminate useless items from the game since well rolled Legendaries without a useful legendary affix for my build now gain a value of their own.

Let Rares be Rares, an item tier characterized by high randomness and customizability that are qualitatively distinct from Legendaries but potentially equally valuable.

My Take on Item Tiers

Before sharing my own thoughts on the importance of different item tiers, let me link a recent thread with many good arguments in favour and against Magic and Rare Items being endgame viable. Personally, I am opposed to an item design where decking your character all out in Legendaries is the optimal endgame choice for two reasons: First and most importantly, I believe this will unnecessarily restrict build diversity. Secondly, it trivializes theocrafting to a point where selecting some 10 legendary affixes from a pool of a few hundreds is really all you do. And then farm the desired regular affix rolls on these Legendaries, potentially even with a crafting / reroll option.

In the December 2020 item tier design, as the numbers in the table above illustrate, Legendaries would always be the most powerful items, so long as affixes roll well and your build can make good use of them all. That is really the gist of it. Do not make too many legendary affixes that synergize in terms of power. Lean more towards gameplay-altering effects that are mutually exclusive, at least where the power spike gained eclipses regular affixes. Such exclusivity I believe can be achieved by making sure that equipping such Legendaries comes at a notable cost.

Every build should ideally have a unique playstyle. Legendary affixes are more meaningful as regular affixes due to their greater impact on gameplay. In my eyes, you should be required to significantly change the way you gear or play to make them work. They can be a direct extension of the skill tree by enabling cross-skill interactions, or simply encourage more general gameplay patterns. They can also bestow new meaning upon regular item affixes thus directly impacting itemization priorities, and I like that because it naturally places a requirement on other item slots to provide sufficient of these regular affixes. However, this must still feel grounded in the affix quality itself to not feel gimmicky. Why would cooldown reduction provide a damage buff and resource cost reduction reduce your damage taken? Making Legendary powers work should always constrain our choices in some way, or at least some of them, and if they do, you need to offer a notable power gain in return to make it worth our while. These constraints and requirements are however also the best way to balance against combining too many of such powerful Legendaries on any given build. Make sure that not too many of Legendaries buff the same skills at a time, require the same gameplay pattern, or draw their power from the same regular affixes.

Magic and Rare items should not only be the fillers for Legendary powers, however. With their predesigned constraints and synergies, Legendary powers are prone to shoehorning us into cookie-cutter builds. Among the regular D4 affixes we have seen so far, I feel many are designed for much more than simple stat sticks. They also tie into gameplay, but enhance more general skill or gameplay choices (ranged vs. melee, AoE vs. elite single target, burst vs. DOT etc.) that do not prescribe a certain sequence of skills or stacking of regular affixes. I don’t think such regular affixes are boring. Freely picking and combining skills that allow you to react adequately to different gameplay situations with exactly those skills that best match your gameplay and aesthetic preferences is already rewarding in itself. The upside of making builds without any Legendary power endgame viable (though probably not on par with those that use a good number of them) is customizability and build diversity. With the same max roll for stats on each gear slot, for example, there will be only so many stat thresholds you can achieve at a time. Sacrificing a Legendary power in favour of higher stat rolls that unlock an additional threshold allows for more build diversity and non-obvious theorycrafting that feels rewarding if you can make it work.

In terms of customizability, the recent introduction of +Skill ranks as a regular affix could be promising. In fact, I think they should not appear on Legendaries at all, thus making wholesale skill buffs only an option if you forego some more context-dependent buffs of the same skill found on Legendaries. Personally, I would also allow Rares to roll up to two different skill buffs in two separate affix slots, which would fit the theme of high randomness and customizability. You want to be a one-trick pony that heavily relies on a single skill? Go for Magic items, but be prepared that you cannot do a lot of endgame content without an optimized group. The role for Rares here would be to buff two skills at a time without having to build around the requirements of a Legendary Power, being able to tackle a wide range of endgame content in single player with whatever build you choose, although maybe not quite as efficiently as an endgame character that perfected their build and playstyle around at least some Legendary requirements. Lastly, I like the idea of Magic items as a convenient flex spot in your gear. If their rolls are considerably higher than that of other tiers and you can free up one slot for flexibility, you could switch in different blues to notable effect before tackling a particular dungeon, for example, without impairing the functionality of your current build.

Maybe I am getting this wrong. I know many warn that Legendary powers should not to be too specific and restrictive. Also, there will be Uniques which are designed as build-around items. However, I do believe getting rid of Magic and Rare items in endgame builds will significantly impact build diversity and customizability. That is what I feel is at stake with the simple question of whether Legendary powers can be applied to lower tier items.

On a final unrelated note, I do want to say that I like the overall direction in which the game is going and appreciate the developers’ efforts. It’s great to see them return to a slower combat pace and abilities more grounded in reality, as also shown in the recently published gameplay footage. If it is true what the community read from the experience bar, that there is a maximum level cap and paragon points are restricted to 200, that would be very comforting to know. Expansions should add value by providing new classes and more diverse endgame content, not by power creep and increasing max levels. We will play reasonably short seasons and not a second-life MMO.

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That’s some wall of text you got there…

There are Unique items above the Legendary grade items, so an upgraded Rare item by Legendary Essences wouldn’t be the most strong and possibly bind it to your own account when Essence being used right away. This is for creating an end user for the said rare item instead of letting you trade the resulted Legendary item three times like implied on the previous blogs.

Rare items being upgraded to legendary is only for spitballing the crafted items idea and we have no idea about how rules would apply. If Rare items have 65% efficiency on their stats, applying a Legendary Essence might bring it down to 54% that is equal to the other Legendaries and replace a random affix.
Even if it doesn’t, and you get to hold a Legendary item with stats at 65% efficiency, you have no idea about the process; the rarity of the materials used and effort required to bring them together. It would take you a month or so to guarantee a decent rolled rare item worthy to hold a Legendary Essence.

Highly possible that it would bind the processed Rare item to your account and wouldn’t let you trade it away to circulate powerful items in the market. This is for bypassing unlucky players who couldn’t afford to find or buy Unique items by creating a step stone inbetween Legendary items and Unique items. That’s all. Not many of the busy people would create time to play the game 7-8 hours per day while they’re working and RNG can be cruel as you all know.

It feels like you’re freaking out over nothing.

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I agree. I liked the 2020 item affix idea more. All tiers should be usefull, and not just as a crafting base.

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Yes.

Yes.

The system as presented in the blog is terrible.
I have no issue with being able to add a legendary affix to a rare item, at all. However, it obviously needs to nerf the rare items normal affixes down to the power of a legendary.
Like; you add a legendary affix to the rare, but the rare loses 2 of its normal affixes.
Or alternatively, we can craft 2 additional affixes unto rare items. Those rare items can then not be used as bases for legendary crafting.
Both of those ways preserve the power balance between legendary and rare items themselves, assuming of course that 1 legendary affix is = 2 normal affixes. If it is more than that, the above numbers just need to be adjusted to whatever the conversation rate is.

Rares need to have the same, or a bit higher, max potential power of legendaries, for the December 2020 system to work.
In the scenario above, legendaries are still best.

Yeah, should definitely be random. Selection makes it too easy (getting 4 of 6 wanted affixes has a reasonably high chance of happening, 6 of 6 obviously less so).
That said, rares themselves dont have to drop that often. Keep their drop chance reasonably low too, so getting a good one, or a great one, still doesn’t happen too often.

Strongly agreed. Item crafting should not be a thing in Diablo 4. At all. Everything from Gambling, to Cube crafting, to Runewords, in both D2 and D3, is bad gameplay imo. Items should come from slaying monsters. The end.

But adding a legendary to a rare item, losing 2 of its affixes, would not make the rare better than the legendary, and since you still need to find that legendary in the first place, we are very far from standing in the city to craft items, D3 style.

Note, obviously, you should not be able to re-extract a legendary essence from one of these “crafted” legendaries. This should be a one-time chance to make a new item. If you want to try again, you need to find a new legendary.

This legendary on rares concept, if done properly, is not so much a way to make rares great, as they should just be great on their own, as you say, but a way to make it a bit easier to get great Legenaries.
Which seems fine; it should be easier to get great Legendaries than great Rares imo, something this crafting system helps with, a little; making Legendaries your default building block “early” on in endgame. With great Rares being incredibly rare to find, but coming with that BiS potential, where they beat both legendaries and uniques.

Like;

Item Tier Max Item Power
Magic Items 50%
Rare Items 110%
Legendary Items 100%

Definitely.
And also just be less interesting to play around with, since Legendaries design is more handcrafted by Blizzard. Rares offer more creativity for players.

Yeah, imo, legendary affixes should pretty much never be skill specific. Nor should normal affixes (including +skills). That is just unnecessary RNG on top of RNG.

They should not be a stepping stone between Legendaries and Uniques. Since Uniques should not be better than Legendaries.

Rares = Legendaries = Uniques.
Of course with different builds having different preferances between these in each item slot. One build might indeed go for only Uniques. And another build might go only for rares.

While taht can work in theory, any kind of “scaling” affixes up and down come with the inherent limitation that it means you must ensure all affixes can be scalable.
Which limit developer creativity.

Like, how do you take +1 Fireball skill from 65% to 54% efficiency? Without starting to have +0.54 Fireball affixes (which to be fair might be a good thing to have, for balancing reasons).
Or “Cannot be Frozen” (not that it should exist imo). Hard to have that affix at 54% power.

Much better to remove or add entire affixes to an item instead, so rares have maybe 6-7 normal affixes, and legendaries have maybe 4. And enforcing that rule if you create a legendary from the blog recipe.

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I was a strong advocate (and still am) of the idea that all item classes should be potentially useful. I don’t like the idea that 99.9+% of items generated end up as ground clutter while we just put up the items with a beam.

In order to make this work, you have to have a “power budget” where the level of the item defines how much power it can potentially roll. That “power budget” must be the same across all item classes. For example, if each level of an item adds 5 points of power, a level 1 item can have 5 points, and a level 50 item can have 250. Those 250 points would be distributed differently on magic, rare, and legendary items, but the overall power on each would be capped at 250 - each a viable choice. What you’re suggesting in that table is to give legendary items twice the power of magic items (50% vs 100%, 125 vs 250 points in the “power budget”).

Put another way, implement the “item progression system” from previous Diablo games where you progress from common to magic to rare to legendary because each has more power than the last. For an end-game character, this is no choice. You would never, ever take a magic or rare item because you’re losing much of the potential power that item slot could generate. You would always take a legendary item, and we’d be back to every character in all legendaries, and all blues and rares that ever dropped become ground clutter.

The only way this works is if, in our giant math problem that is our character’s power equation, each item has the potential to offer the same value of power if rolled perfectly. That is, each of our 14 or so item slots could potentially offer the same value at any character level regardless of item type equipped, be it magic, rare, or legendary.

This is essential to build diversity. As we see with D3’s patch history, people will always choose to build with the highest potential power because that’s the way to progress fastest, which means it’s the D3 devs who picked the most popular character builds, not the player. Equal potential makes more builds viable.

This becomes the next issue: how to carve out a niche for each item class such that you’d actually want to use it? Comparing rares to legendaries is easy enough because of the stat stick vs legendary affix trade-off, but what’s my incentive to pick a magic item over the other two? And will white items still drop, and if so what’ll they be used for?

In my mind, I see magic items as the path to multipliers. If you want AS, Crit, CHD, CDR, etc, these ought to be on magic items. You give up raw power affixes to get the multipliers. And, for certain skills and certain builds, you’ll want specific ones of each and that would be an important tactical choice. If you’re going with a big, slow hitting spell, you might invest in the Crits and CHD to make it hit as hard as possible when you use it. This could be the realm of magic items.

Then we deal with rares and legendaries. These give basic stats, but you get 2 more rolls of them compared to magic items. And you’d want these because what’s the point of multipliers if your base number is small? You couldn’t just go all magics. You need rares for stats. And you’d strongly consider getting that 5th affix as a stat as well for this reason, if ideally, we get the numbers balanced properly.

And of course, we’re all familiar with the legendaries. These are the items with the “build-defining” affixes. This is so tricky to think about because we don’t want to go the D3 route where the affix is just a huge multiplier for a single skill, so that you’re obliged to use only that skill. It’s grossly overpowered and constrains build diversity. We want these to change how you’d use a skill, but not become mandatory. Ideally, we wouldn’t want 10 of these. We’d just want a few of them, then stats and multipliers on the rest of the gear. What are we talking about here? Trade-offs.

  • Change the elemental damage type of a skill(s) to another (allowing stacking +elemental dmg-type builds)
  • Change single-target skills to AoE of various types or vice versa
  • Change the shape of an AoE skill
  • Add a defensive component to an offensive skill, or vice versa
  • Make a ranged skill melee-range for more power or vice versa for less power
  • Change the type of damage a melee skill inflicts (blunt/crushing to sharp/cleaving, assuming this would change the weapon-type multiplier as well)
  • Add physical defenses to an elemental magic shield or vice versa

And for white items, I’m seeing these as crafting mats. You’ll want a base item to imbue with magical powers when you craft. These could also be the base of a rune word system, like in D2.

Ideally, we get this right and you’d have a real, authentic reason to want to use all of these item types in some build or other. Some builds might prefer more of one type than another, but that’s good and offers room for creativity and build diversity.

I disagree and the reason is RNG. In theory, rolling a usable 5-affix rare is a nightmare:

  • You have to roll a rare with 5 affixes (assuming they can roll with less like in D3)
  • Then you need all 5 affixes to be ones you want/need
  • Then you need all 5 affixes to roll high values

If you’ve ever tried to roll a good Flavor of Time amulet, you’ll know the pain of fighting against RNG’s massive search space, even with a Smart Loot system significantly constraining the ranges things can roll. So many of them are just absolute trash, and there are lots of items just like this, and it’s because we simply added +1 affix that must roll properly and roll a high value. It expands the search space by an order of magnitude. Compared to our model for legendaries, it’s an order of magnitude harder to find a great stat stick rare to compete with a well-rolled legendary with an affix we essence’d on. You have to use what you can find and if our unicorn rare never drops, it’s not really a choice, is it?

Personally, I think this needs to be solved with a Smart Loot system, or with a similar means of constraining that 5th affix. I’m also thinking of a socket system where you farm gems to get the affix you want in a parallel system to the legendary essence. You’d get a rare with 4 affixes, then add your 5th with either a legendary essence or a gem in a socket.

But, if we leave it with that huge RNG barrier, we will always need to have a crafting system as a second-chance mechanic.

I agree in principle, but as I just mentioned, RNG is a real beast sometimes. Giving the player viable options to direct his search for gear is always a good thing. A crafting system is a great way to do just that. If I think back to the Vanilla D3 legendaries in Haedrig’s cook book, these are great examples. You get to lock in a stat, and it may be a non-standard stat for that item, then roll the rest of the affixes when you craft. You can direct your search a bit. You still have to farm, but it gives you a second chance - an option for when the RNG odds aren’t ever in your favor.

Diablo is never going to get rid of the RNG concept. It’s core to watch Diablo is as a game, so it really needs this type of second-chance mechanic.

Yes scaling individual affixes is not an option I agree.

I would favour not inflating the number of regular affixes on items too much. A replacement logic sort of requires that, for scaling purposes. Although I suppose it could work with keeping 5 rare affixes which then yield a Legendary with only 3 regular affixes, but potentially rolled higher than the 4 you get on a regular Legendary drop. Actually this is something I hadn’t thought about yet. We get to choose whether we prefer three higher rolled or four lower rolled affixes on our Legendaries.

I like your thinking, being a Rares fan myself. However, I probably prefer not having the gearing process to your first Legendaries be too fast, either. In any case, it would still be reasonably fast if we remove the ability to craft Rares into Legendaries entirely, all you got to do is find any Legendary base for your desired slot.

What I previously noted, however, that we get more choice in terms of whether we want 3 or 4 affix legendaries, has me thinking that perhaps retaining the crafting option with the removal of two random affixes on the Rare could actually be the better than not allowing for essences to be applied to Rares at all. I like the clarity in terms of item tier distinctions in my originally proposed solution, however, and it certainly would be the easiest fix.

First, this is not what I am suggesting, but what the December 2020 blog post implied if you take all the numbers published in a random example seriously to the decimal (which is overinterpreting, of course).

The main point here that I should have made clearer, however, is that this is only the quantitative amount of regular item affixes that can roll. In my understanding, not all “affix points” will qualitatively translate equally to “power” for each build. Each build will have a few selected regular affixes that benefit its power much more than others . Being able to roll these to 100% each on Magic items instead of say 60% on a Rare should under some specific circumstances be worth to give up on 3 more “60%” rolls that you could have on the Rare. Achieving certain breakpoints or building for one damaging skill only could be an example for such specific circumstances.

Without running calculations of specific examples in the full itemization context, I would think the numbers presented in the Dec 2020 update are in a good spot to enable these kind of builds, without allowing anyone to gear up exclusively in Magic items because the sacrifice of other useful / required affixes would just be too painful. But I certainly do not envy the balancing guy at Blizzard to confirm that they actually are! :wink:

You are certainly right about RNG and I am all for crafting as final tweak to otherwise well rolled drops. They certainly need to keep affix pools and roll ranges in check as well. The +Skill rank is a notorious RNG nightmare in that respect, I am sure they will look into limiting the number of skills that can roll in each slot (like D3) and/or only have them roll with the max +Ranks roll for the respective item tier if the right skill happens to roll (less intrusive in terms of player choice).

That definitely should not be possible imo.

And drastically lower affix ranges, so we get rid of unnecessary RNG.

If a legendary affix is worth 2 normal affixes, then legendaries need 2 less normal affixes than rares imo.
Then we can discuss whether rares should have 6 and legendaries 4, or rares 5 and legendaries 3 (imo more affixes makes for more interesting items, but for balancing the two item types it doesnt exactly matter).
If rares always have two extra affixes we also dont need to let them roll higher, which comes with the same issue as before, where not all affixes might be able to scale, and thus unable to roll higher.

Dont want it to be fast either, just faster than finding great Rares.

banana

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Oh come on. Watch D3 early demo videos. Even slower and much more grounded. And we all know whats happened next.

There are two issues here that are linked. The first is that leveling and end-game play are different. The second was the D3’s insistence on never nerfing, only buffing.

If tactical combat is the goal, that has to be stated up front and maintained as a core designed feature. In D3 Vanilla, you never really got to the point of flying through content. You still had to work. It wasn’t until RoS and the continual injection of new orders of magnitude of new player power (and the ensuing need to create new orders of magnitude of new monster power to offset it) that we ended up with builds that were literally just lawn-mowing their way across the screen. The designers let the end-game be an excuse for “god-mode” game play and built it into the game. And let’s face it, playing a brainless WW barb holding down the right mouse button slaughtering everything on the screen is fun for a while - but it gets stale quickly.

Ultimately, the D4 designers have to choose. Is “god mode” game play where speed trumps everything going to be their goal? Is that the “fun” that makes their combat system tick? If so, they’ll have to adjust everything else in the game to accommodate that. Move speed becomes a premium stat. Skills that do damage while moving become essential, as are displacement skills, and there is no time for anything that uses combos, traps, or anything with a long wind-up. Personally, I think this is the sort of thing that needs to be relegated to end-game race-type activities only.

I think the game is better when tactics are required. You can build tension with the monsters. The monsters stay on screen long enough to do damage. You can transition game play beyond “CC, then kill before the CC runs out.” It ends up looking more like D3 GR pushing, and it’s a good thing because it puts players in a position where they have to respect the monsters’ abilities, react, and could possibly die. But, that requires a commitment from the developers that they’ll maintain that concept into the end game.

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Thanks all for your input so far! Also for the interesting discussion you linked, Lolli.

Let me play the devil’s advocate here and ask: Could Legendary powers not be designed in a way that allows them to fulfil all the endgame purposes of Magic and Rare items that we have in our minds?

Build diversity and customizability is the most pressing concern for me. Making each skill viable without any predefined gameplay or gearing constraints could be perfectly achieved with (seemingly “bland”) Legendary powers that provide +Skill ranks for each and every skill in the game. Each general gameplay choice like Single-Target vs. AOE etc. could also be catered to by Legendary powers that are simply an enhanced version of the respective regular affixes. One bland Legendary power for each regular affix (which are not that bland to me). Want a flex spot for specific elemental resistances? Swap in the Legendary power that provides just that. Want to meet an additional stat breakpoint for strength? Equip a Legendary Belt of Fortitude.

Legendary powers that do more exciting stuff would not have to disappear at all from the game. So long as they are at an equal power level as the other “regular affix”-focused Legendary powers, players would remain free in their decision whether they want to lock into specific gameplay patterns predesigned by the developers. Balancing “stat sticks” against “crazy powers” is much easier on the same tier than across item tiers with varying affix numbers and max rolls. The coexistence with such bland “stat stick” Legendaries does not limit the potentially game-changing impact of “exciting” Legendary powers. If Blizzard feels pressured to dial up the impact of those to play out even more spectacularly, just compare the builds using that power to a build with only bland “stat stick” Legendaries. If it performs notably better, balance by making the respective stat boosts on the bland Legendaries more significant relative to the respective regular affix rolls. Done. Perhaps some exciting Legendary Powers could even be allowed to be slightly more powerful than the “bland Legendary yardstick,” namely if they come at a cost. For example, a Legendary power may complicate gearing by nullifying the impact of certain regular affixes entirely, or even come with a negative gameplay effect (“curse”) that you have to gear or play around in a clever manner if you choose to equip it.

We can now return to a very clear vertical item progression signalled correctly by the intuitive color code. That is actually an advantage. We are free to phase out Magic and Rare items eventually, but want to make sure that each tier has some longevity, so as to extend the thrill of hunting for upgrades. Here is how I would do it: The lower the tier, the less affixes it has. Yet the upside would no longer be that lower-tier items roll their affixes to a higher maximum, but from a higher minimum. Combined with their higher drop rate, this makes it much easier to get decent rolls on lower-tier items. Replacing these with higher-tier items will almost never be the optimal decision instantly, but eventually it will be. In this sense, Legendaries would become the new Rares: a great number of affixes that are difficult to roll well, but with a static Legendary power that is not all that hard to find in the first place. In this context, applying Legendary Essences to Rares really starts to make sense: Casuals can slap the power onto their currently best Rare and be done with it. While RPG enthusiasts will continue to hunt for their perfect Legendary base almost endlessly… Everybody will be excited when they spot an orange skybeam!

Wait. Once Magic and Rare items are obsolete, useless items do drop. That is a problem, right? Not if they cannot clutter our screens. Even if you fail to apply such a very simple loot filter, drop rates for lower tier items would hopefully be moderate to begin with and decline as you progress through the game until they cease to drop in the hardest content entirely. It is important that we cannot salvage such useless items for materials, otherwise we would give the players busywork.

You may be concerned that reasonably rare Legendary drops still do not quite capture that “lottery feeling” of exceptionally well-rolled Rare items, which even in D2 – despite their name – drop relatively frequently but are rarely useful. Crafting offers the perfect design space to further cater to that feeling. Materials of random quality could drop continuously with a low chance to hit the jackpot at any time (think D2 High Runes). More common materials could be used to craft levelling gear or improve existing items slightly (e.g. add or reroll one specific regular affix depending on material type). The rarest of all materials, however, should probably be reserved for something more special, for example to handcraft a completely new item type from white or gray crafting bases that unlocks strong powers which cannot be acquired from anywhere else in the game (think D2 rune words). Not overpowered like Enigma of course, only slightly ahead of perfectly rolled Legendaries improved via crafting and certainly below the power of a Unique, which they complement and do not compete with. Since you went through all the RNG to assemble the materials, the final craft roll should probably be far less random than Legendary drops.

I will talk about intricate theorycrafting and player creativity last, since that is where I struggled the most to make a convincing case against Magic and Rare items. But I think now I can. All comes down to a great number of well-balanced legendary powers, of course, which again I believe is considerably easier to balance if you do not have to account for varying regular affix counts and roll ranges multiplied by potential gear slots for each item tier. Legendaries should each stand on their own and not synergize in power with each other, otherwise we are forced into D3-style BiS combinations. Legendary powers should be general and open-ended enough, however, to allow for non-obvious gameplay interactions among them (or with the skill tree, paragon board etc.). Let me highlight Saidosha’s Frost Nova / Charged Bolt / Taunt / Heal-on-Hit proposal as a good example that it can be fun to combine various Legendary affixes in creative ways. Personally, I am less concerned with whether developers have pre-engineered everything we feel like cleverly putting together than I am with balance. In any case, even unintended combinations figured out to be too powerful by the community will be instantly brought back in line via patches. You still feel that incorporating Magic and Rare items in your build would give you more creative freedom? Think about the following question: What is the difference of cleverly combining regular affixes rolls with Legendary powers by sneaking in a few Magic or Rare items as opposed to buffing such regular affix rolls by picking seemingly bland and boring Legendary powers? The effect you achieve is exactly the same. And I will probably be the guy picking the “bland” Legendaries, because I dislike being patronized in my playstyle.

So, do you buy my complete turnaround from the OP position? Legendary Essences do not ruin Dec 2020’s item tier system, they completely turn it upside down and that is for the better. Blizzard, please delete Rare and Magic items from endgame and return to vertical item tier progression!

Convince me otherwise…

But, they’re not? According to the blog, Uniques offer class specific bonuses while Legendaries have generic bonuses for mass appeal. Any legendary bonus can appear on any slot, so extracting an Essence to create a new legendary doesn’t change much but drive player to find a worthy Rare item to take the effort.

Uniques may have very specific class related bonuses, but stacking them will make you suffer from stats to reach thresholds required to unlock nodes as implied in the previous blogs. As game difficulty increases, stacking Unique items won’t work for you to faceroll content as doing so, will have severe drawbacks for game flow.
Uniques will fall short on stats, while Rare and Magical items will offer you grand bonuses for crowd control and stats for sustain. You may have power with Uniques, but without endurance against masses of enemies, the power is useless. With much power and damage, you can be a glass cannon but also can be outwitted in PvP or can’t endure attacks from large crowds in PvE just to be a boss killer.

There had to be a balance between low grade and high grade items and here it is. Player might enjoy having Uniques and Legendaries but still has to limit their equipment for better benefits instead of making it a pay-to-win scheme. Rare and Magical grade items will be much common but circulate in the market for player to pick and choose from. While Uniques and Legendaries only would have limited amount of exchanges to create an end user.
Knowing Legendaries advertised as they can be traded three times; highly possible that the processed Rare-Legendary will be account bound right away to create an end user. Processed Rare item could be much more powerful and it would break the balance of market, thus it’s the best choice if it stays Account Bound.

To recall, we have no idea about the process itself or the effort it takes to extract an Essence, let along the droprates for a very decent Rare item. Uniques can look “the better option” but they’re not; skill nodes require stat thresholds to be active, equipping the lower stat Unique over a higher stat Rare item won’t do good for your build at the long run let along stacking them. Thinking you have limited action slots and so many item slots, over stacking Uniques won’t do you any good as you won’t benefit from all of it.

Lot to process here for you, with “there should be no trading at the first place” and “Unique items shouldn’t have this or that”, but I rather stick with what’s given on the blogs and not what it should have been in your opinion. There are limiting factors revealed for all to see and you can’t just ignore those.

Legendary Essences are good and add flexibility to the game. Trying to shoehorn a bunch of stat sticks (aka blues and yellows) into builds adds absolutely nothing to the game. There are already several ways of adding and fine tuning stats to your character. Having a blue or yellow stat stick with none of the actual interesting affixes that higher rarity items have, makes zero sense.

I like Legendary Essences

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D4 legendary essence saves the D4 itemization from being flooded with useless and boring glorified stat sticks.

So would you both be okay with adding giant ORANGE “stat sticks” to the game? So long as they are balanced exactly at or just below the level of more “exciting” Legendaries?

Only in this case would I agree. We can do without Magic and Rare items, if some Legendary Essences are actually “stat sticks” that you are free to pick or ignore in Diablo IV… Both being viable choices.

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I disagree entirely! Ultimately, you want your character to progress and get more powerful. In this system I’m proposing (it’s hard to navigate what others want exactly), you’d get the most power out of stacking the appropriate stats, which would require a diverse set of gear:

  • Magic items - multipliers like AS, Crit, CHD, CDR, elemental %dmg, etc
  • Rare items - raw power stats
  • Legendaries - build-defining affixes that change how skills work

One of the things D3 did was hand everything you need on every item. Every item rolls main stat, so you always get the raw power. Then you pick up the multipliers you need on the item slots that can get them, and your optimum choice is to get all of the multipliers + the main stat on the same item, and you’ll go through dozens of drops to get it. And then, of course, because they included the mathematical optimal on each item, the only way they could make legendaries good was to add grossly OP affixes to your pre-solved mathematical optimum, so now you got utility + raw power + multipliers all on the same item. D3 doesn’t separate the three concepts and force a choice. So, your only choice is to get the set + the supporting legendaries and make the cookie cutter build. Which is why S24, everyone ran a freaking GoD6 DH with the same cookie cutter build. And every season there’s one of these. There is no trade-off, no choice, no real build diversity.

Now, consider an example with my system:
Maybe you’re a rogue with a high crit build. Let’s assume your main skill has a high chance to crit if you’re behind the target, like a backstab. Whatever, just need an example. Your optimum power is going to come from getting as high attack speed as you can get so you can increase your crit generation. But, what’s the point of getting all those crits if the base number they’re multiplying by 2 is very low? You need raw power too.

So, you end up with a choice. You can accept the low base power and give up your fast attacks in order to get “build-defining” legendary affixes, or you can bypass those and stack raw power on top of your skill of choice. Or maybe you really only need 1 or 2 of those “build-defining” legendaries to make your build work, maybe a skill that extends a stun to your backstab so you can get 3-4 more crits in before they turn? Would you give up some raw power or attack speed for that? Well, if it’s balanced right, the answer is “maybe” and it’s up to the player to choose! You get genuine trade-offs, viable choices, and ultimately, you get build diversity.

As for legendary essences, I just see this as a QoL issue to make gearing easier. This makes it easier to get the core of your build complete, then you can spend time loot hunting for more optimal options as you go, playing the way you want to play as opposed to having to play a crappy Haedrig’s gift set until you can find the good set you actually want, then farm the supporting legendaries, and level the gems you need to at least 25 because you need those bonuses as well… etc, etc, etc.

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i just dont see the point

legendary powers are fine and they should be exciting and creative in a healthy dose and if you spam the thing all over the game people wont be excited about it anymore
that’s kinda what devs don’t understand in game design nowadays
you cannot create a constant dopamine rush with something for hours when triggering it every 20 seconds

You implied uniques were or should be better than legendaries?

But if not, then yeah, they should be equal in terms of average power (which is not the same as all Uniques or all Legendaries having same average power of course, some items will be better or worse, just that the potential “power range” for both legendaries and uniques should be the same). So we are comparing top unique with top rare, and so on, of course. Not low unique with top rare.

How they look is not important for balance. If they look more powerful, but aren’t more powerful, then everything is fine.

As for trading and droprates. Those are pretty irrelevant for the topic.
As in, whether rares, legendaries and uniques are balanced against each other, as the 2020 blog seemed to promise. Higher or lower droprates, or trading limitations, do not change anything in that regard. Those are not ‘limiting factors’ for balancing item types.

That’s true when there are no interesting affixes on magics and rares.
Which is not the case in D4. Problem solved.
And I like the Essence mechanics too, just not for rares.

if legendarys not drop from sky but prize for birthday all good