[D4 Itemization] the more, the merrier? not always

General Discussion
1

while i really like the idea of giving many different stats and affixes to items to give the players a lot of different build choices, i think that it’s the wrong way of “balancing” something that was caused by something else, to increase the number of affixes on all those items

ik, some people like the idea of legendary consumables but they DO cause a problem when it comes to memorability of items and rarities

the problem they tried to solve: legendary powers are too strong and outpower other items
their solution: give legendary powers to all different items and further increase the number of affixes on all items
you know, where this is going^^ PoE splatter screens
and it can confuse new players if they have to read through even more stats and affixes
there should be a lot to choose from, but not so much to have at the same time

it could be done the other way round, with reducing the number of affixes on legendary items, make them exclusive again and people will eventually not try to have 10 legendary power items on their character and rather have some stat boosts
it could look like that

legendary banana
100 damage
very slow attack speed

  • banana bomb splits into child bombs that detonate again
  • +10% attack speed
  • +50 max HP

rare banana
100 damage
very slow attack speed

  • +10% attack speed
  • +50 max HP
  • +25 fire resistance
  • +15% critical hit chance
  • +2 to banana bomb

magic banana
100 damage
very slow attack speed

  • +15% attack speed
  • +25% critical hit chance

they are all obviously different and also viable
you might want to go full legendary to have a crazy splatter screen but you will be missing stats
you might wanna go for many rares to pump your stats
or you wanna go for some magics to further increase something specific that you want to focus on, like critical chance and attack speed

4 Likes
2

I Totally Agree to this concept +1

1 Like
3

Pretty sure it’s been mentioned but one of the solution is like the following: Give Legendaries somewhere between 1.5 and 1.75 legendary affixes, so when the legendary affix becomes consumable for other items, you still have 0.5-0.75 of something other items wouldn’t have

The legendary affix as consumable to be lesser:

i.e. solution 1:

legendary banana
100 damage
very slow attack sped

  • banana bomb splits into child bombs that detonate again
  • bomb detonation radius +[50-75]%
  • +10% attack speed
  • +50 max HP

Or, 2nd solution:

  • When consumable: banana bomb splits into child bombs that detonate again for [50-75]% damage

Either would work I guess. P.S. - it would be nice if the 2nd unique affix that wouldn’t be transfered as consumable to have a range of effectiveness… Not too much different but still SOME difference to make not all of them the same :slight_smile:

EDIT: Apparently got Necro-baited, lol :thinking: :smiley:

4

Legendary items should be something different than rares, so a legendary has specific affixes to just that legendary item, like how uniques works in PoE and Diablo 2. But you can extract the orange affix from the legendary to the rare. The orange affix should not be the only specific affix of that item.

5

Kinda confusing but think that’s what you said ?, yes, exactly. If legendary affixes can be put on consumable for other items then Legendaries should have 2 legendary (or one legendary and one reduced in power) affixes on them :slight_smile:

6

A legendary should have affixes that are only tied to that legendary, so for example:

Boots of swiftness

  • 30 % movement speed
  • 5 % movement speed for each stack of aliment active
  • 50 - 100 hp to the revived minions
    Orange affix: When you run over dead monsters they will be revived.

So the only thing that you can extract from this pair of boots is the orange affix. So you get to decide if you want to you use these boots or just the orange affix.

1 Like
7

You’re confusing lol, the way I see it appart from the first affix on your list all the other 3 seem near-legendary level, It’s too much PoE-esque I’d guess :blush: :smiley:

Think you’re “overboard” a bit, but I think you got the issue, Case #1:

Boots of swiftness:

  • 30% MS
  • 50HP
  • Projectiles deal % less damage to you for the same amount of bonus MS you have

So, if you extract the Italic thing on another item, why would you use the Legendary ?, so in order to make Legendaries work they should be sth like this

Boots of swiftness:

  • 30% MS
  • 50HP
  • Projectiles deal % less damage to you for the same amount of bonus MS you have
  • Your projectiles travel %MS bonus further and deal %MS bonus damage

Much easier to grasp I’d say. BUT yes, think we’re talking about the same :slight_smile:

8

Or just leave the freakin legendary effects to the legendary items
What’s the matter
There are runes for crafting already
In a loot game, it’s also about looting the right stuff

1 Like
9

I put my 2 cents in here as well.

So I would like that legendaries look something like these items in this imgur album (numbers need to get adjusted, since this is just for the purpose of illustrating the idea):
https://imgur.com/a/Z5NswCo

As you can see, legendary weapons and off-hands (like shields or sorcerer orbs) are much more powerful and have much more affixes on them then legendary boots, helms, jewelry, etc.

It means that legendaries for weapons and off-hands (and if I could have it my way also chest armors) are always better than rare or magic weapons, off-hands and chest armors.

But in some slots, like Bracers, Shoulders and Pants, rare and magic items could be the best, because legendaries in these slots would have less affixes and the special affixes they have are only mildly powerful and/or interesting.

In all other slots, like gloves, belts, amulet, rings, helm, boots, etc, legendaries and rare and magic items would compete for the BiS.

That way you can have some amazing and chunky legendaries, while rare and magic items still being useful.

Having legendaries that just have 2 normal affixes and 1 special affix (by default), makes them feel kinda boring and less exiting.

10

feels a bit inconsistent to me

11

Honestly, appreciate the effort, but seems like a lot of forcing just to make rates important or even better.

KISS - keep it simple stupid.

Blue 2-3 affixes with higher number values.
Yellow 4-5 affixes with lower number values.
Orange 3 affixes total, could be 2 normal and 1 legendary up to 3 legendary affixes, with normal affixes having range in between blue and yellow.

12

Just give me:

Blue: 4-5 affixes with higher numbers
Yellow: 6-7 affixes, with all affixes available
Orange: 6-7 affixes (+ legendary affixes), with limited/handcrafted stats available (fixed or random within the limited pool of affixes)

3 affixes on legendaries would be incredibly boring.

Sockets should not count as affixes, but be applied on top of the items (through crafting maybe)

1 Like
13

why boring? it has a legendary effect
you dont have to choose a leg for every slot
thats the point
make blues and yellows viable with not making legs stonger than them
easy math
a legendary effect is as strong as 2-3 affixes

3+3=6

15

What do you mean by “rates” in this context?
I mean Median XL and even D2 did this as well.

° Weapon, Off-Hand, Chest Armor = Legendaries and RW’s being BiS
° Shoulders, Bracers, Pants, = Rare and Magic being BiS
° Rings, Amulets, Helm, Gloves, Boots, = Rare, Magic, Legendary, RW’s being BiS and therefore competing with each other

^^this is KISS enough for me…

And even in D2 Weapons, Off-Hands and Chest Armors always had legendary or RW BiS and in the Boots, Gloves, Amulet, Ring and Helm slots rares, magic and legendaries where often competing for BiS.

But which of these two legendary would you rather want to find?
Option A:
https://imgur.com/S0cFJkR
or Option B:
https://imgur.com/YOaPXL

Or between these two?
Option A:
https://imgur.com/ftm80ws
Or Option B:
https://imgur.com/YOaPXLC

I would be pretty underwhelmed by the A Options to be honest…

16

Because legendaries with just 3 affixes are actually boring!!

These:
https://imgur.com/S0cFJkR
https://imgur.com/ftm80ws

VS these:
https://imgur.com/YOaPXLC
https://imgur.com/JrrPyIx

You can also achieve this goal by making legendaries better in some slots, while making rare and magic items better in other slots and letting them compete in others. It even was this way in D2.

17

Sry but that’s just weird to me and looks like forcing players to play a specific way xD
Imo. there shouldn’t be intended BiS slots for certain rarity types even if D2 had them. It’s weird.
And I also don’t get what is “boring” about an item with rather a very powerful stat than 7 meh stats
That’s what this thread is about “the more the merrier” is not really true. At least from my perspective

18

… in some slots, but not in all.
In most slots, legendaries, rare and magic items (and eventually also crafted items) still would compete.

I admit that in the end it boils down to “I like this / I don’t like this”, as in things being a personal preference.

But for me, a legendary with just 3 stats, whether the special affix being super powerful or not, just does not feel legendary.
Furthermore, I wouldn’t say that all of the stats on them are “meh”. Some might be, but definitely not all and you also have sockets to customize the item.

Beyond that, legendaries being by default on the same pwoerlevel of rare and magic items makes them feel even less legendary. If I already have a good magic item and then find a legendary, then why should I change that for the legendary I just found if it is just on the same powerlevel as the magic item?

19

well, i definitely think that “occasionally spawn hydras on the battlefield” sounds more interesting than “20 attack speed, 50 HP, 15 cold res” xD

and that’s what i think, still makes the “preferability” of those items
people will generally tend to go from magics (can roll higher), to rares (always have more stats), to legendaries (have game changing effects)
its more interesting^^

20

Itemization is way simpler than we’ve all made it out to be.

Step 1 - have very, very rare loot from level 1 on.
Period end, Diablo 3 didn’t do this, ie there’s no super rare level 1 gear in the game that matters, or level 5, and such.

Step 2 - slow down leveling majorly so its not like diablo 3, where leveling up creates an AoE that bumps you 2 levels basically. The longer your early levels are, the more important gear is early on, the more you want to find rare gear early on, and not not-care about your gear. Longer the early levels, the more rewarding it is if you find a good early item, you don’t outgrow it in 4 minutes like Diablo 3.

Step 3 - have low level best gear be good in the midgame, or possibly late game if its somehow possible. IE several D2 early legendaries are great in the midgame, bc the game doesn’t scale off weap damage solely, so your Biggins Bonnet or so carries value into the mids. Your titans is endgame viable, gg level gear. etc.

Step 4 - have yellows and blues and such be-endgame, bc affix combos, such as druid pelts and FCR rings and such in D3, let them compete with end game legendaires, but they can be found before max level, providing both a midgame and an endgame target for gearing, plus they aren’t silod into magic find.

Step 5 - Don’t have redic powerspike gear with way too low a barrier, such as Stealth or Spirit sword, or Hoto. These kind of runewords, and Enigma, were total mistakes in Diablo 2, the greatest mistakes the game devs made, well TP outta boss fights is right up there, mana pots for cheap etc.

Step 6 - don’t put endgame gear as craftable early on. D3 messed this up big time.

Step 7 - Don’t avoid having endgame crafting mattering, like D3 avoided. Endgame crafting should be an option.

Step 8 - Dont have the endgame gear be upped versions of old items, like primals. They aren’t interesting because they aren’t new items, they’re beefed up stat wise versions of the items we already have, which is uninteresting, and not-unique feeling.

Step 9 Have depth such as eth items, or superior items. Low quality items can go, as nobody in the history of diablo equipped a low q item, ever, in any game, bc there was absolutely no reason to, and literally anything was always better than a white low q item.

Step 10 let the cube add sockets, with recipies, with odds, with gambling. this puts value on whites.

Step 11 - Let our mercanaries gear matter, but certainly don’t let them be too powerful, so we can gear our merc which adds to itemization bc way more items get value.

Step 12 - Dont scale skills of weap damage only, bc then all that matters is gear, as opposed to splitting that between skills and gear, and the leveling process is tarnished to garbo if weap damage is the end all.

Step 13 - have endgame loot not be tied to just elites, or just bosses. Area levels greatly solve this, when each area caters to different builds. Diablo 3 messed up bc they think just elites matter in greater rifts. which is gross.

Anyway ill stop here, theres more, but im out of energy.
No diablo 2 isn’t perfect but it surely did itemization better than D3, but then again its the D3 forums which is heavily polarized to people who barely played D2 and think D3 is this goat game.

4 Likes
21

You’re right but I’d prefer a one “catch” the “occasionally spawn hydras on the battlefield” to be a baseline thing. It empowers/encourages players to “toy with” proccing effects (arguably the whole Ancestral route effects might be related to that)

Legendary should probably be:

  • Enables cast of lvl [1-3] Hydra ([30-40] mana required)
  • [10-15]% to spawn lvl l[1-3] Hydras per hit
  • (Sorceress only) Hydra projectiles now pierce and travel 40% further

It would make classes that don’t use the Hydra (i.e. not sorc) able to “toy around” with Hydras, and for the Sorc Hydra gets empowered by allowing the Hydra projectiles pierce and travel further

That kind of thing. The “procs per hit” should be probably (somewhat) more universal, at least in my view. That’s what allows classes/people to “toy around” with before they “settle” for a full-invested Hydra build for ex. :slight_smile: