D4: Legendary Essences ruin Dec 2020's Item Tier System

If legendary items in D4 are going down the route of being class /skill specific (which i prefer it will not), but if it does then rares can simply take the spot of the global “legendary affixes”.

If we take D3 as an example.
Band of Might will be a legendary ring.
But something like Broken Promises can just be a rare affix, that are only available on rings.

So affixes that can be used by everyone is in the rare mod pool.

Also in PoE rare items have a ton of interesting affixes, especially influenced items. So rares being just a stat stick is wrong, it doesnt have to be that way. Just have good and more importantly enough affixes in the pool.

afaik uniques are supposed to fill this specific role

If part of the goal is to remove Cube recipes, making it more “arcane” in a sense, than having some means to “cube a weapon/property” in this form makes sense and is a sort of step in the right direction, allowing players to retain some useful abilities without having to completely grind for them again and build upon them over time.

I don’t know the previous method but player agency is almost always a good thing ™.

Honestly, if legendary essences were only usable on legendary items then there wouldn’t be much issue with them since they would mostly be used as a way of molding a legendary item to better suit the player. However, since the legendary essences can also be used on rares to transform them into legendary items, it relegates rare tier items use to that of being just ingredients for making legendary items, rather than being an item rarity with it’s own strengths (such as having more affixes than any other item tiers besides uniques). Now this wouldn’t be much of an issue, if there were some additional changes made as well when using a legendary essence on a rare item, (for example, using a legendary essence on a rare item replaces one of the rare item’s affix, so there can never be a legendary item with 5 affixes + 1 legendary affix).

That said, I think my biggest issue with legendary essences is that they’re skill specific rather offering generic boosts. We already seen what happen when you add skill specifc bonuses to items, it almost always makes said items mandatory for builds which means there’s little to no alternatives and as such your build will be and/or feel incomplete without said items.

With all that said, I don’t have an issue with legendary essences being used to replace the legendary affix of another legendary item.

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I think essences are bad as a whole. Should honestly scrap it. Let the legendary items be what they are. They should be static with roll ranges.

Crafting as a way to fix up rare items is totally fine and should be there. But moving legendary powers around? nah, to me it just sounds like something that would fit in a D3 season but nothing more. Definitely not as a core mechanic in D4.

I am so glad that you asked! :blush: The point of the whole “stat stick” Legendaries idea is balance. Regular affixes need to be well balanced amongst themselves in any case. Legendary powers need to be balanced against each other in any case. The hardest and most crucial part, however, is balancing Legendaries that play out their power in gameplay situations not readily quantifiable against the number crunch of regular item affixes. This is where I feel “stat stick” Legendaries instead of endgame viable Magic and Rare items could help.

Maybe I am really freaking out over nothing here, please help me see the obvious if I don’t. In my perception, the balance between Legendary powers and regular affixes is at the root of what divides the community: Some really want to play with exciting Legendaries and are afraid that uninspiring stat stick builds will dominate thanks to Magic and Rare items. The other bunch of us fiercely defend the endgame viability of Magic and Rare Items because we do not want to end up being shoehorned into predesigned builds and gameplay patterns by Legendaries so powerful that they are essential to compete. Blizzard absolutely needs to get the balance between regular item affixes and Legendary Powers right.

How do “stat stick” Legendaries help balance? They bring competition between regular affixes and Legendary powers to the same gear slot. In fact, even down to a single “special power” affix in that gear slot, since in this system as I think of it at the moment, all endgame viable items would roll the same number of regular affixes with the same maximum roll. The only thing that differentiates their power potential is the respective special power affix (Legendary, Unique and new “stat stick” powers that simply double down on the potency of regular affixes). Now, instead of having to balance legendary powers and regular affixes separately, you can easily measure them against each other directly in real-game situations by only swapping out one item. I know I probably make this sound easier than it will be, since I for one at least want to allow Legendary powers to chain link their gameplay effects together in interesting ways to achieve their real power potential (which should be capped at a similar level, of course, of what other more granular single-slot powers would achieve altogether for the same number of slots required).

Looking at the alternative, balancing Magic and Rare Items to be endgame viable seems much more daunting to me. If we assume 10 item slots, we have already 66 different possible combinations between blue, yellow and orange alone. Each item tier combination has a different total max regular affix roll to compare with a different number of Legendary Powers you must give up on in order to achieve it. Since the number of affixes is not the same either for each combination, either, you must account for different additional affixes chosen on a Rare or sacrificed on a Magic Item, further multiplying the scenarios. Sure, the regular affixes can and should be separately balanced against each other so that quantitatively you can assume each roll has equivalent “power potential.” But numbers quickly gain and lose meaning in very specific, dynamic and context-dependend gameplay situations. Maybe game balancing experts just shrug at this mess and get on with it. Being a complete noob myself, I would think that in the end, there really is no alternative to playtesting all potential combinations in adequately sampled gameplay situations. If resources are scarce, I fear that they would rather be spent to balance out exciting Legendary powers instead of making sure that regular affixes remain powerful enough, which I feel is the most crucial balance to ensure build diversity.

Maybe I overestimate the balancing problem and Blizzard can pull it off. After all, Legendary powers will be in the hundreds and yield a vast number of combinations as well. Maybe it is sufficient to only playtest some builds fully equipped in Rares, make sure they do not fall off too far behind, and have very few handcrafted situations where Magic items actually matter in endgame. Maybe instead of “stat stick” Legendaries that come with their own problems, you prefer a “Legacy of Dreams” power that forces you to only equip Magic and Rares in return for a generic power boost that brings you up on par with Legendary builds, that should be easy enough to balance. Maybe you are confident that a sufficient number of more generic Legendary Powers will be available in the game anyways, so that decking yourself out exclusively with Legendaries of that kind will not restrict build diversity in any significant way. I would appreciate to hear everybody’s thoughts on that.

I agree, prefer rarer and less random drops as well. Not sure though which part of the system sketched out in my Devil’s Advocate post suggests more frequent excitement with subsequent frustration to you, could you clarify? Yes, Legendaries would be more random and need longer to roll perfectly, since they basically have to live up to what Rares are in the Dec 2020 system. Here drop rates for Legendaries needs to be higher compared to usefulness, so that you get Legendary Essences for much less random Rares which become a transitional tier in the vertical item progression. Legendaries essentially become our current idea of endgame Rares. I don’t particularly like that system either, but believe it could potentially alleviate balancing. Worst thing that can happen is that build choice is limited by an itemization which fails to balance for “regular affix” type powers to be relevant at endgame.

Wrong. What the Dec 2020 Update said is that Uniques would have “heavily thematic and usually class-specific powers.” There is no generic / specific power distinction visible to me at all. Check out the Legendary Ring of Three Curses shown in the same blog post: “Meteor gains a 45% critical strike damage bonus against vulnerable targets”). That seems fairly skill specific and not generic to me, and as others have mentioned, we have seen many similar examples of skill- and class-specific Legendaries.

Actually, your mentioning of Uniques caused me to read up on them again only to find out that I myself also had a misconception of how they were presented to us. I sort of assumed because Uniques replaced Mythics, they would also be the most powerful items in the game, but come with the same restriction in that you can only equip one at a time. Reading back, I think that was probably not their intention. Blizzard said that the player could focus on (various?) “skills augmented by Uniques we designed”, which at least implies they mean for you to equip various Uniques at a time.

Whether a Unique’s regular and legendary affixes would be more powerful than Legendaries is not really clear in the blog post either. From comparable max life and stat rolls on Unique and Legendary items showcased, it would seem that they are at roughly the same level. That would be coherent with the statement that they deleted Mythics because “we don’t want to create an item quality that invalidates all others”, although Mythics really only could invalidate one slot at a time.

As far as I can tell, the only clearly communicated design feature about Uniques is that they would be heavily thematic “build-around items” that “always appear with the same affixes.” Have we had any further “hard evidence” (of fluid in development content, lol) regarding Blizzard’s concept of Uniques? I would be glad if you pointed that out to me.

Personally, I think I would design Uniques as “build-around items”. Clearly stronger than the average Legendary but balanced by only being able to equip one at a time. Fixed rolls point you to the direction to build for, but their true power doesn’t shine until you complement the Unique power with additional specific regular affix rolls required on your other gear slots. Once fully complemented, they should be stronger than the average Legendary but obviously only by a reasonable margin that does not invalidate builds without a Unique.

Yes, it seems that regular affix power on Uniques as per Dec 2020 were roughly the same as on Legendaries, thus below Rares and Magic items. As stated above, however, I am unsure whether the item tier system mixing in blues and yellows for stat boosts can really be a thing in D4, balance-wise. What’s your take on the problem?

Indeed the potential power for all endgame viable item types should be roughly the same. Those harder to come by, gear for or play around should be a tad stronger IMO, so long as they do not invalidate build choices that prefer not to use these types of items.

Exactly, I think a lot of us have the same concern. We need to have a way to create our own build as free as possible. Legendary powers akin to the current regular item affixes could be a solution, if they do not have crazy powers designed for your build, you could still equip those and be endgame viable.

Not sure what you mean by “what they are”. Legendaries in D4 have completely random affix rolls as of the current design, they even can randomly roll for different gear slots. The power seems to be rather fixed and static, and not reroll when you transfer it via essences iirc.
Uniques contrast with this design in that they drop for specific item slots and always with the same affix types, though probably random rolls on each predefined affix I guess.

Well, I’m asuming that when you say “legendary essences” you mean “legendary afixes” or te equivalent, but yeah, that’s what got me a little bit worried with this last update. To be fair legendaries don’t only have skill specific afixes, they do have generic boosts. From what they showed us so far, we have about 4 generic legendary affixes and 2 skill specific.

Skill specific affixes aren’t a problem necessarily. They became a problem in D3 because they are so much more powerful than everything else in the game, combined with sets that have too specific bonuses that benefit from said specific afixes. While seeing a skill specific bonus in a item brings up the bad taste left from D3’s itemization, if they are careful with it maybe we won’t have a problem. Whirlwind pulling enemies and Meteor having increased critical strike damage against vulnerable enemies hardly sounds like mandatory for builds using these skills.

Yes, more or less. Either the legendary affix on the item and/or the legendary essence when the affix is extracted by the Occulist.

Well they may not be mandatory for all builds using those skills, but honestly I don’t see why builds using those skills wouldn’t go for those type of legendary affixes. Of course, we haven’t seen every affix (legendary and non-legendary alike) that the game has to offer. However, from what we have seen thus far, I don’t see how the other non legendary affixes could match a skill specifc one, especially if we’re to take the recent update blog into consideration. Which is why I’ll leave my feedback on that now while there’s still a chance that it’ll change, rather than later when it’s likely too late.

But that’s what Uniques already do. Legendaries are random items with a legendary power.
For a number of reasons it’s necessary to offer the player the possibility to change the item type, which is what the Essence system does.

There’s already an example in the blog actually :

That’s something that I could imagine using instead. There’s also buffs to other specific skills, buffs to defense, to resource regen etc. At some point you’ll have to make a choice, and I don’t necessary think that a pulling whirlwind is a must have (though I agree it would be in a better place in the skill tree…)

As a whole, I think they’re doing a decent job at making legendaries not too powerful or mandatory for a build, most of them are changing the way you play rather than the way you build your character.

It also not like we’ve seen every single legendary affix in the game. There could quite literally be hundreds. I’m sure there will be a good mix of generic all purpose ones that any class can use, limited purpose ones that maybe only some classes can use, and class/skill specific ones.

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Yes, those are fine, and what legendaries essences/affixes should be. Generic and/or skill category based bonuses. Skill specific bonuses should be found within skill tree upgrade nodes. Of course, that’s my own opinion.

so you know in the end it’s just math, not magic

i am not very good at math but lets just assume that a legendary affix is supposed to be 3 times as strong as a normal affix, it’s not hard to balance. you just need to be able to do the math when creating legendary affixes. which is rather hard because they can be situational but let’s say something simple.
you shoot 2 fireballs instead of 1
this is a 100% damage increase. probably not on small targets but mathematically it is
now if a regular affix says
fire damage increased by 30%
that would be about 1/3 of the affix above

in the end it doesn’t really matter which color these items have and how many affixes they wield
the overall power is just numbers and you can work with numbers

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Easily could make it fireball now launches 2 instead of one each at 75% dmg. Or something so that affixes like that don’t get too out of hand power wise.

sure, whatever helps with the pace
but the point is, it’s not “hard” at least in theory
i don’t really get the point above
and i mean i have tried to present it many times

rare item 1 1 1 1 1
legendary item 1 1 3 (or 1 1 1 3 if you will)

where’s the “complicated part” here?

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Exactly this. Normal affixes do not have to be boring affixes, at all.

I was quite fine with allowing legendary essences on rares, if balanced properly, but since it seems like Blizzard might not be capable of balancing things properly, yeah, just let it only work on legendaries, replacing legendary affixes on the item with those from the essence.

Yep. This really needs to change.

While not skill specific, it is still limited to one class.
Why not make it “every second you haven’t used a resource spending skill” instead.
(dmg also seems too high, unless it is additive, but different topic)

True of course. But if everything they do show, is the same old skill/class specific ones, it is pretty reasonable to assume that is what there is.

Yeah. That is no problem.
Can also increase the cost and so on.
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could say

So these things can be balanced in all sorts of ways.

Yeah, not complicated at all tbh.
I mean, of course balancing is complicated. So many moving parts. But the baseline to aim for is extremely simple;
Make legendary affixes have an average power of X normal affixes.
Make legendaries have X fewer normal affixes than rares.
The end.

Heck, X doesn’t even need to be constant. One legendary could have a legendary affix “+15% dmg” designed to be worth 3 affixes. So there are 3 fewer normal affixes. While for another legendary “+10% dmg” is worth 2 affixes, and it has 2 fewer normal affixes (any kind of essence crafting would need to take this into account of course).
Likewise, a legendary could have 2 legendary affixes;
1 that is worth one normal affix, and another that is also worth 1 normal affix. Their legendary status is just the special thing it does, rather than being more powerful affixes. And this item of course also has 2 fewer normal affixes then.
There could be plenty of variation in the legendary design if Blizzard wanted to, creating a bit more interesting items. Everything doesn’t have to be extremely strict “3+1” affixes.

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So far we have the following legendary afixes showcased in quarterly reports:

“Fury skills deal X% more damage for every second you haven’t used a Fury skill, up to X% (Barbarian only)”
“Whirlwind periodically pulls nearby enemies to you (Barbarian only)”

“Meteor gains a 45% increased critical strike damage bonus against vulnerable targets.”

“Knocked down enemies take 46% additional damage from your attacks”
“When you stand in your own damaging ground effects, you increase the damage they deal by X%”
“Your chill effects will trigger Freeze 25% faster but you deal 30% less frost damage”
“Increase the duration of your defensive skills by 38%”

So we have seven total, with only three being class specific in some way. And out of the three specifics, one is a generic buff to the class, while the other two seem situational buffs to specific skills. Pulling enemies while using whirlwind seems really good, but hardly a must have. Meteor causing extra damage to vulnerable targets also doesn’t sound like a must have. The fury one might look like a must have, but for a whirlwind build it just wouldn’t work because you’re chaneling a skill and you wouldn’t get such a good uptime on that buff. Your concerns over afixes that are skill/class specific are understandable, but seem a tad overblown when you actually look at what they showed us so far.

True but also blog states under Legendaries that “Many can be used by any class, while some are specific to a particular class.”. Generic powers or uncertain ones that can fail at rare occassions.

You have to keep the target in a vulnerable state but it doesn’t state that vulnerable inflicting effects would have large area of effect radius as well. You need a supporting item for that and it only increases your chance of crit rating against that one vulnerable target. You could never land a critical hit in a short time span where target is flagged as vulnerable.
Check Unique item powers and you’ll see a huge degree of certainity; there’s a theme. Uniques are offering class specifics while Legendaries offer uncertain effects or generic ones that can apply to many.

It’s not supposed to be clear. It should be decided by player intuition and the build itself. If you remove your +25 main stat Rare items to replace them with +7 stat Uniques, you shouldn’t be surprised if you’re not receiving bonuses from a very crucial skill node for your build anymore.

True. It clarified later by a Community Manager that equipping “one at a time only” affects dual wield and ring jewelry actually.

Nothing, because if player took effort to create a powerful item then it consumed some resources already, took them out of the potential market and wasted time on a task to engage with the game. Problem solves itself by time consumption depending on how free market flow is designed. Hopefully, the processed item will be Account Bound and won’t enter the market circulation in any way.
You have no idea how much effort it takes to create an essence, material drop rate or is it any justified. It only reveals through gameplay tests, you have no weight or anything else without playing it.

Do you have a link for that? I think I’ve misedd that one.

But it’s not everything they have shown. We have seen some from each camp.

It seems quite must have for an AoE skill that is centered on the character. More so than many of the dmg increases even.

From what we know currently, the dmg types seem to be extremely limited per class so far. Hopefully that changes, but until it does, something like the Chill effect legendary also seems limited to 2 classes currently.

All the 3 class or skill specific ones could easily work across multiple classes though. No reason they are so limiting.

Further, one could add the unique items to the pool of items we know. That would be 2 more skill specific ones. And one that would work across 2 classes (I believe, not sure if others than druid and rogue got poison).

Only 3 of 10 items work across all classes.