Bonus group experience is the worst thing about D3. ruins the game

Folks do 2 runs, then break stuff. Aka double stacks. Same gons doesn’t mean same damage, a wiz don’t do the same damage as barb, neither sader as dh. You forgot buffs stacks, a barb will increase survival and damage, even not being z. A sader or dh will do the same, because they use buff for themselves. those buffs appears to be minimal, but it’s simple math.

A target has 4 times hp, but receives 25% more damage from all sources. That target in the end will receive 125*4 = 500% from a threatening shout debuff of a barb(savage and z increases it by 50%). Add aspd and maybe 100% crit damage from a sader law, add the pet buff from dh, add other situational buffs/debuffs. And those multipliers stack. 2 folks using buffs will be way more effective than you playing solo, for kill things, if you folks have the same “power”.

That’s why even random groups can clear up 1-5 gr more, at same kind of time. While organized groups can run 10-20 higher. 2 gr runs then break stuff and start again, this can be done in a lower interval than than you said, because 1 minute to break stuff it’s too long for any kind of player in a group(often folks would open a rift to farm key while they wait more than 30-40 seconds. So your ratio would be:
20 seconds(your 2 breaks) against 30-40 sec tops.

Just run with only gems in the inventory and you could at least run 2 gr in a row.

More 30% xp + running at the same time basis with a gap of 10-20 seconds doing up 5 tier higher. It’s clear that even random groups can perform better, if all of them can do that content as speed.

I not against solo or groups, I often play solo. I just saying that on groups if nobody gets carried, they will do higher content, doesn’t matter their class or combinations. Because even if they use the same buffs, their overall uptime on the buffs will become almost 100%, while most of the time that isn’t true playing solo. Take any class with any individual build, if they have any kind of buff, debuff or cc based damage increase the entire team will impact in his damage and he will impact in the team’s damage. Because folks will apply the effect to get the bonus also, so in the end, your “theory” only will hold true, if nobody put passive for damage, don’t use any kind of buff and don’t use trapped gem. Which means utopia.

Most of the passives who improves damage has perks about it, some are based on the target life, others on cc, others on kills and so on. Several folks doing damage will trigger several of those effects.

Dh has group buffs, without being z(pet buff)
Barb has group buffs, without being z(shouts)
Sader has group buffs, without being z(law)
Wd has group buffs, without being z(vodoo and piranhado)
Monk without being z(mantra and damage amplification)
Necro without being z(curses, cc)
Wiz without being z (will use squirt and have some kind of pixel or damage amp, that would work better because more folks and more uptime on squirt)

Add pixel, cc, defensive buffs(means more uptime on squirt for the players using), not even considering ignore pain and sprint that can improve a lot mobility and survival.

The damage will be higher, would be the same or higher, never lower(at the same gr tier). Even considering the worst case scenario, if the damage keep the same as the hp increase and they run the same gr as solo, the 30% xp will kick in and be more effective even if you spend more 10-20(30-40 total) seconds more each 2 runs. Because would mean around 10-20%(12-24 seconds) of the time as xp against 30% per run.

The worst case scenario they would have 10% xp to spare. So yeah, level up and speed gr are easier and often faster with random folks, if those folks can clear the content, solo at almost same time.

Try run solo vs a random party of players at same timeframe, they will level up faster than you doing the same content or higher. If both “parties” do the same stuff, run 2 gr, break stuff, then do it again.

In like 10 to 50 runs you will see the gap become higher.

I ran solo for 2 days, and a friend ran on parties(messing around and not playing optimal). He increased on the first day the gap by ~42 levels, then on the second ended like a ~98 levels gap. Both parties playing the same amount of time and most of his time was having new folks and his party changing a couple of times each 2-3 hours. They done around 3-7 gr tiers above me each run. Keeping the around the same clear time (1:39-2:18). His party didn’t had necro and didn’t played any meta(last season) he done as GoD dh, I played frenzy barb and my average time was 1:47 while his group was 1:55.

The experiment was: both at 800 gons. He set up a party we started. The first day we played bit less than a hour, the second around 2 and a half hours.

First day his gap was 42 levels, the second day was 97. I ended being able to run speeds 90-93 while they done 93-100. When I joined the group we done 105 speeds because I was frenzy barb and their party was (sader/ww/monk[random], god[him], monk/wd/god[friend], sader/wd/wiz[friend]). When we organized we could run 110-112(sub 3min, me as zbarb) or 6min 120runs(him as zdh and me as zbarb)

The idea was play as normal, he had a dynamic group who would be more or less effective based on what folks are on in the party, avoiding using meta or z, always doing 2 runs then break stuff. I done the same as frenzy solo. My runs oscilated more but my overall time was lower than theirs, the time for new folk enter and they trying increase or decrease their gr based on the group, while I done the same based on the gon and gear I got.

The part I highlight it’s that group content will be easier most of the time, because folks would run speeds at same level up to 5(random groups) and 20(optimized). That’s why bs necro with gon enough to clear gr 130 could beat gr 150 in a group with 3 z. The values can change for more or less, based on optimizations but while mobs get increased hp, players get more xp,more buffs from others players and mobs receive more debuffs also. That’s why often debuffs and buffs like zbarb and zdh can increase several gr clears, pixel with ad improve some more and coe rotation shine even more.

I get on each season with like 50 hours of play, then decide if I want to increase my standing or not.

Clearing within 10% of the top clear does not take much.

Bottom line is that the OP has a great point, but rather than remove the group XP, I think they should add a buff for solo minded players that gives the same increase in XP to really diminish that gap.

I didnt forget anything. I added the 5 gr difference as we talked about. I didnt cacl the optimised groups. Unoptmised groups Will be about the same as a person who is efficient solo. Might be slight better as the calc showed 5h difference but then u forget about the time u w8 for ppl. Alot of none meta teams check gears and etc. And as i Said sure there are good and fast teams with minimal downtime but that rarly happens unless its high end teams. I never seen it in 4dh teams or simular. I Said i stop between 5-10 sec each run. About 5 sec it takes to run from your portal to open a new grift and start. That time will always be there. And there is always a run speed, to improve speed ppl use barb in ratruns. Thats why those are faster than 4 dh. I made the calc u dont agree with the numbers i stated earlier. Its a estimate and can add alot of variable but from my experience i do better playing solo other than playing in a random team and the calc showed the same when i add in the values which i experienced. If u not a efficient solo player then thats another story. Again high end rat and bird teams are much faster and those are the ones i bother with.

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Hardly going to make a difference for solo if they want to be competitive.

Chart of Solo VS Group Exp for P5000 journey
https://i.imgur.com/LjSL5kI.png

By the time solo player played 500 hours to reach P5000, the group that played 500 hours would have been P7000:
https://i.imgur.com/vLZRofz.png

Diablo 2 Group Experiencie ruined Diablo 2 too. im whit you buddy

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Sure they can do that but u wont rly see a difference. They wont compete with ratrunners anyway. They will only compete with ppl who does same GR as them in group or about 5 gr higher which they alrdy is.

At least we agree on something. Groups have a edge when folks are for speeds. That’s my point.

Any random group with free loaders will often not do 5gr higher. The numbers increase often because their power as group increases, starts with 3-5 then goes 5-7 and so on. I don’t consider myself a excelent player, but I can keep my gons really well when I want against groups, but their xp gain will increase as time increases, because they receive more xp per run and their delay isn’t that huge.

The experiment was made for both parties doing speeds, their party only had one random folk at time to add a degree of positive/negative handicap, that random knew they would go speeds. All members were aware of speeds and they could clear it solo. If you playing with random folks that don’t go at least similar pace, then they’re not up to speeds to begin with.

Never said about public games, I highlighted the fact that any combinations of classes in a party who could play speeds at same gr, would perform better or on the worst case scenario, equal. But the xp bonus would kick in and provide the advantage over solo. That’s the same conclusion you got after not considering the scenario I presented.

Any kind of playstyle that don’t do meta would be sub-optimal, either solo or groups. So gauge a player ability to run optimal ways to do stuff solo, if you break stuff and repair stuff each run, you’re already suboptimal. Because speeds, mostly you don’t die, you level gem, tp, orek and go again. The max variance on group would be 0-5 sec max(with the same skilled kind of players), because the gem npc can spawn on odd location and sometimes you need tp or run to it. After two runs book, then savage stuff. One call gr then put stuff on stash(5-10 seconds). That’s why I put the 10-20% variance(12-24 seconds on 2 gr speeds 2minute runs).

The removal of bonus xp could improve the gap, but don’t solve the issue of higher content. That’s why I highlighted the fact that, mobs damage or hp could receive multipliers change.

Obviously rats/birds will have a edge. Again thats optimal setup. The extra bonus in group isnt the problem, thats just what ppl who doesnt play in group believes.

I used to care about this. Like, 6 years ago…

It bothers me in the abstract that solo is so heavily penalized compared to group play.

Viewed on its own, I’m actually fairly satisfied with the length and tuning of a solo player’s season’s journey. Basically if I had no information and no exposure to the much greater rewards of group play, I’d be fine.

I would beg to disagree, 1000s of hours play the original Diablo solo thank you very much. A lot of fun had.

yes.

No, that’ll do nothing about augments and paragons, both of which give a massive advantage to group players making solo runs on the solo LBs.

Exactly.

Yes! Unequivocally yes. More time does not equate to better skill. At the moment, this game is simply a time sink and if you invest enough time, you can get enough paragon and win that way. It’s almost like pay to win, except it’s “play to win”.

This is true for the most part, but it is still frustrating for us players in group 3. Getting rid of paragon would be the best thing for the game imho. Or, alternatively, keep paragon, but it doesn’t give main stat (or vitality) and instead offers magic find. This would result in a flatter LB.

Blizzard must also actively police botting and TH cheating and ban as much as possible. Ban waves every day of the season. Every bloody day. People who are cheating and just buy another licence will get sick of spending X amount of dollars every day just to buy the game again so that they can cheat.

Yet solo players take top 10 spots every season, and sometimes even get #1.

Once you hit 3k paragon the returns are diminished so severely, that finding the right rift trumps all those extra paragon points.

Giving solo players the 30% increase will result in a gain greater than 30% because of the ramp up impacts leading to higher solo GR levels faster than possible.

If they really wanted to take it a step further, they could remove the xp penalty on gear and gems for solo players as well.

Yeah, no. That’s not what happens at all. Seriously it’s an absurd claim. Those people didn’t play solo only to the top of the leaderboards. Early season maybe end of season nope.

If those solo players are legit solo players on the leaderboard, you wouldn’t have people asking for SSF. So nope, those solo players that occupied the solo leaderboard have their own dedicated team when it comes to leveling.

Did you not seeing the link I posted here or what?
https://i.imgur.com/LjSL5kI.png

Without group EXP, it still take group 175+ hours to reach P5000 while solo players still need 500 hours to reach P5000 EVEN with a 30% exp bonus.

Groups should be stronger than solo because well 4 people are stronger than one. Solo should give more experience for the same content than groups, because you are fighting something just by yourself. That’s the common logic in all rpgs. They should have balanced around that. Let’s say you do a gr 100 solo. That should give 4 times more experience than if you do it with 3 other players. But when you group with 3 others, then the power of everyone combined should allow for something higher than gr 100, so you can compensate for the exp loss by going higher and still manage great results. The numbers here are over simplified just to make a point. Never understood why d3 should have this logic that groups can both be ridiculously more powerful and at the same time even for the same gr would still allow for more exp. The exp by killing an enemy (in our case mostly closing the rift) should not be multiplied but divided and shared throughout the number of players than killed it. That’s like saying irl if you try to lift weights to become stronger then by having 3 more guys lifting these weights with you would be more beneficial than lifting those weights yourself alone. There is no sense in that.

Augments? If you restrict using LG’s solo then LG’s used in groups ranked up are excluded to be used in augments. Thus there can be a flag set saying this LG has been used in groups (actually worn or just ranked up in a group) meaning you could only do a GR solo with augs you ranked up solo.

Without fundamentally changing Paragon I don’t see it as a big issue…solo players can hit 3,000 quite easily and the difference in 5k and 3k is not significant given diminishing returns.

As previously said if you want a game that doesn’t offer bonuses to multiplayer then D3 is not it, it has been designed that way and will always offer incentive to group. The Follower revamp is a way to bring the gap closer but much more is needed but changing Paragon is not it because it is fundamental to D3.

Changing LG’s used is viable though and brings solo leaderboards closer to actually solo play. If you want solo leaderboards which are truly SSF then again that is not in D3 and doubt it will ever be.

Not at all, it was not designed this way. Groups have been buffed multiple times during D3’s lifespan.
At release it was even a bad deal getting in a group because monsters got +100% life and +x% damage for each person in the party.

People have started complaining about it until we got the situation in which we are now, where grouping up is such a boost that it leaves solo players in the dust by comparison.

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D3 has always had bonuses for group play, whether those buffs have been increased etc is irrelevant.

As a mainly solo player I too want far bigger parity with group play but I understand that D3, be design, offers incentive to group play and that will always be the case.

Group will always offer more than solo. What we want that can be possible is to bring it closer but D3’s design won’t change in that Group will reward community play.

For D4 Blizzard acknowledge this is an issue by advising they are aiming to make D4 much more equal with the whole group v solo.

But D3 is set in that group will reward, they won’t change it but can make it closer like the Follower change but a whole lot more is indeed needed.

D3 grouping wasn’t rewarding at first and guess what? They tripled their effort to make sure people are actually playing multiplayer.

This will happen to D4 once they found that people prefer playing solo over group because the group wasn’t rewarding.

Couch Co-Op UI

We know many players enjoyed couch co-op in Reaper of Souls, and that the biggest complaint was the inability to do anything while one local player had a UI screen open. When the topic of couch co-op came up early on in development, we looked at the number of people who utilized this feature in Diablo III and found that the 2-player setup accounted for an overwhelming majority. For Diablo IV, we decided to focus on improving the favored 2-player co-op experience and set up our core progression UI screens such that they can be opened independently or at the same time.

No one was asking or eagerly want to know about co-op in the D4 blog but for some reason, Blizzard thinks it was a priority to “let” us know what they are planning for co-op. If this doesn’t tip us what is their master plan for the group, then I don’t know what is then.

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No I don’t think they will given they are not planning Leaderboards based on Greater Rifts.

Whatever the end game will be like with leaderboards they have said solo will be able to compete on a much more evenly based platform than D3.

They ain’t going to change D3 with the group reward but will make it closer between solo and group but I think the vocal part of the community is getting the point across that a lot of people like solo and want to compete with that.

We want that for D3 which looks unlikely but D4 I think they will ensure that is the case.