Yeah, I think that’s the way to go. Something like:
X is where we are now with a given build.
To get to Y, we need + whatever % on this multiplier. That will get us into these ranges at these Paragons.
If you math it out, I’m happy to write up each build with a brief explanation of nuance, mechanics, etc–basically anything they’ll need.
Switching gears . . .
I understand Clueso has voiced his concern for LOD and LON, but I don’t see mechanical changes to skills as feasible. Is anyone else concerned about this? Is anyone concerned about R6 HOTA? Personally, I’m fine with R6 HOTA biting the dust, and I don’t see a way to make other pure-Raekor builds viable without massive buffs to supporting legendaries or a total overhaul of the set.
While this is true, a lot of things have changed as well.
We’ll agree to disagree on that point.
Yet we have 8 years of experience that shows the exact opposite.
Look, I’d like to see all builds/classes within a few GRs of each other, although I am sure that would just change the complaining to “X can do 3 GRs more than Y, nerf X now!!!”
But we also need to be realistic. There are very few people working on this game anymore, and they never achieved balance when there was more. It’s not going to magically happen in the next patch. It might take the next few patches, or even longer, or maybe even not at all.
I am not asking for bringing all or just some or any LoD build on par with the set meta builds, I am asking for making the experience of playing LoD builds that use these skills more enjoyable, even if they remain underpowered,
Games like Diablo are not just being played by people who wanna be competitive and/or efficient.
There are also people who play games like Diablo primarily for the sake of self-expression of the enjoyment of combat, and these players don’t care much about being competitive.
According to the designers of Magic the Gathering, there are three types of players that play their game, all for different reasons:
https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Player_type
Timmy/Tammy
A Timmy or Tammy is characterized by their tendency to use big creatures and cast big spells.
Large, exciting plays motivate them.
Timmies are most associated with playing for fun, and all kinds of huge creatures, fantastic spells, and mythical enchantments.
They are the most social archetype, enjoying the interaction that Magic provides.
A stereotypical Timmy/Tammy is usually a younger player with a simple (yet fun for them) deck. They do not care whether they win or lose, but want to have fun playing really big effects.
Johnny/Jenny
A Johnny or Jenny is characterized by their tendency to build complex and creative decks.
Johnny/Jenny is most commonly known as a ‘combo player’, and they sometimes choose for elaborate but inefficient win conditions.
They like to find interesting combinations of cards that can win the game or give them an advantage. Johnny may be a player who seeks niche cards, or cards widely reputed as bad, and tries to “break” them, exploiting them in ways to give abnormal power and win the game. Johnnies are happiest when their decks work and they win their way; for them, one in many leaves them happy, if that win is on their own terms.
Spike
A Spike is characterized by their competitive nature and they play primarily to prove how good they are.
Spike will find the best deck in the format, even if it requires copying another innovator’s work (see netdecking).
Spike’s cards are effective, designed to secure a fast and effective victory over opponents. If Spike plays several games and loses only one, but feels they should have won it, they may be malcontent.
These types of players can also be applied to games like Diablo. So if the game will only cater to the Spike player type, it ignores maybe 2/3 of the community.
With the suggestions I made for changing Leap, Rend and Whirlwind, I am not asking for something that satisfies Spike types of players, but rather Johnny and Timmy types of players.
From the perspective of a Spike type player, yes, but not from other kinds of players.
You continue to ignore that there was no real commitment to balance.
We don’t have to be a genius, nor do we need a big team for that. I repeat, this is not difficult … It is also not necessary that they hit absolutely everything 100% in 1 patch, this can be done gradually.
Let me be clear: I don’t disagree that what you’re suggesting is a good idea. I, too, would like to have more diversity and power invested in LOD builds.
What I’m arguing is that it’s unrealistic because you’re asking for skills to be changed. Changing skills is more complicated in terms of balance than changing set multipliers (but probably as complicated as redesigning set bonuses). If the devs are planning on balancing all classes–and I have good reason to believe they are–consider their resources, the size of the CG team, and what affords them the best way to do the most amount of balancing.
In other words, do you really think they’re going to tinker with skills when that will mean having to re-consider any sets with associated skill multipliers?
I’m just trying to be realistic. I think it’s 100% likely we will have set bonuses adjusted. I think it’s 50-80% likely we will see some supporting legendaries buffed. I think it is 0% likely that skills will be fundamentally altered in any way aside from bug fixes, and I doubt even that is going to happen. Remember, this isn’t a Barb-specific patch; this is supposed to be a patch (or two, or three) for all classes.
This is a response we recently got from the new CM
The threads/subthreads also include suggestions for skill changes from the original poster.
I personally interpret this as changes to skills not being off the table.
Now, it might indeed be that skill changes are off the table, but that has not been directly stated and so from at least my perspective it would be unwise to not give feedback on skill adjustments.
I also don’t want to have a conflict with you, I just wanted to give some feedback on something that I am passionate about.
Eh, that looks like a generic PR response. Genuine, perhaps, but not specific at all.
Consider this. The CG team is small. That’s a fact. And they’re going to balance all classes, right? Otherwise, why else would they call it a balancing patch, yeah?
So, considering the above, I think we can all agree they’re going to re-tune sets. I think they’ll also re-tune a few supporting legs. But again, they’re going to do this for all classes, and that’s going to have to go through an internal testing cycle and at least one PTR. Then they’ll have to tweak and refine their adjustments.
Do you really think that in the midst of all that they will also tweak skills? I mean, when I type it all out, I start to doubt they’ll even bother with supporting legs, you know? That’s a lot of work for a very small team, and look how the last two PTRs have gone. Look at the Season Themes. I just don’t think it’s in any way realistic to think they’ll touch skills. I might be wrong! I might be completely wrong! But for the purposes of having a coherent, easily-communicated pitch, it’s not worth it for us to bother with skill requests.
In other words, I don’t think we’re going to get everything we ask for, so I’d like to focus on the biggest, most important things. Rend, Leap, and Whirlwind all work. They’re not broken skills. Asking for tweaks to them is just not a priority. But who knows? Maybe the devs will prove me wrong!
Given the hit & miss job they’ve done of putting together the new sets, not to mention season themes, I’m not wrong in continuing to bring up what 8 years of experience has shown us of the so called abilities.
I am not giving feedback to demand that it is being implemented in the game.
I am giving it because I can’t do any different, so to speak, because I like and enjoy theorycrafting (or ‘fan fiction’ or whatever it is called in this context).
I am totally aware that it might not get done, and that is also okay.
Believe it or not, I actually have fun with coming up with how these things could be, sharing them and talking about them with others, even if I knew that the chance for having them implemented would be slim.
Maybe that clears things up for you, for why I post stuff like that.
We are seeking to increase the power of 5 Barbarian builds so that they can compete more closely with our strongest build, Zodiac Rend. Those 5 builds are:
MOTE6 Pro-Slam
MOTE6 Fire Leapquake
IK6 HOTA
IK6R4 Vile Charge
H90 Frenzy
Zodiac Rend has thus far achieved a GR 148. We are seeking buffs to these builds to bring them closer to parity with this mark.
There are differences in the play of these builds. Most notably, some require a large amount of fishing / rng / luck to achieve a clear that would be considered “good”. Some others require a medium amount of fishing, and one, only a small amount. The builds can be categorized as follows:
High Fishing
Zodiac Rend
Fire Leapquake
Vile Charge
Medium Fishing
IK HOTA
Pro-Slam
Low Fishing
H90 Frenzy
While any two builds might share the same top clear, if one of those two builds requires greater fishing, the average clear for that build will be lower. For instance, if Zodiac Rend and H90 Frenzy had the same top clear- GR 148- it would be considerably easier to clear GR 145 with H90 than it would with ZR.
So: we are seeking to balance these 6 Barbarian builds in such a way that if you play a build that requires high fishing, you may be rewarded with the highest max clear, while choosing a less fishy build will let you achieve a higher average clear. This lets each build have room to excel, without eclipsing other builds or being eclipsed itself.
What that means in practical terms is buffing our high fishing builds to the same max clear as Zodiac Rend, while our medium fishing builds are buffed a hair less, and our high fishing build a hair less still.
But, in order to know how much of a buff is needed, we need to know what level these builds can clear now. So let’s walk through the numbers, build by build.
Fire Leapquake
This build has currently cleared 130, done by a player with over 10k paragon. However, the player who achieved this, Ulmaguest, speculated that he felt the build could go up to 133 or 134. In addition, I have personally come close, several times, to clearing 126, while under 3k paragon, with legendary gems and augments only in the 120’s, and missing at least one useful roll on gear. With max rank gems and paragon over 10k, a 126 for me corresponds to about a GR 133. So, 133 definitely seems possible.
As Fire Leapquake is a high fishing build, we wish to bring its max clear up to the same level as that of Zodiac Rend (GR 148). That means adding 15 GRs worth of damage, i.e. increasing the damage by 10.5x (1.17^15 = 10.54)
Vile Charge
This build has currently done GR 135, at over 10k paragon. But, the rift in which this was done, while good, was certainly not ideal. So VC could certainly do 136.
As Vile Charge is a high fishing build, we wish to bring its max clear up to the same level as that of Zodiac Rend (GR 148). That means adding 12 GRs worth of damage, i.e. increasing the damage by 6.5x (1.17^12 = 6.58)
IK HOTA
The highest clear with this build to date was done during a PTR, and was a GR 133. However, the player who did this, TitanNova, only had about 6k paragon at the time. Going from 6k to 10k paragon takes you from about 40k Str to about 60k Str, a damage increase of 50%, worth 2-3 GRs. So, it seems very likely that this build can clear 136.
As IK HOTA is a medium fishing build, we wish its max clear to be slightly lower than that of our high fishing builds. Our aim is to buff it to reach GR 146. That means adding 10 GRs worth of damage, i.e. increasing the damage by about 5x (1.17^10 = 4.81)
Pro-Slam
This build has currently cleared GR 138, in the hands of Ulmaguest, with over 10k paragon. (Note that this clear occurred during the “lost era” that was purged from the leaderboards due to the Fjord Cutter bug). This, however, was the only time this build was seriously competitive, and thus the only time it was actively pushed by a high paragon, skilled player. If the build were played for longer, the top clear would go up, as has been the case with every other build in the history of this game. So, I believe this build can currently reach 140.
As Pro-Slam is a medium fishing build, we wish its max clear to be slightly lower than that of our high fishing builds. Our aim is to buff it to reach GR 146. That means adding 6 GRs worth of damage, i.e. increasing the damage by about 2.5x (1.17^6 = 2.56)
H90 Frenzy
This build has currently cleared GR 139, achieved by Jedizinid, a player with over 10k paragon. Like Pro-Slam, this build has been played very little by the highest caliber players. Were that to change, I expect this build could certainly reach 141.
As H90 Frenzy is a low fishing build, we wish its max clear to be slightly lower than that of our medium fishing builds (and lower still than our high fishing builds). Our aim is to buff it to reach GR 145. That means adding 4 GRs worth of damage, i.e. increasing the damage by about 2x (1.17^4 = 1.87).
The first +6 GRs / 2.5x damage can come from a direct buff to MOTE(6), as this will solve the issues of Pro-Slam as well.
Current MOTE(6) multiplier of 201x * 2.5 = 502.5, i.e. MOTE(6) increased from 20000% to 50000%.
Fire Leap still needs another +9 GRs, and the best way to achieve this is to update Blade of the Tribes. Currently, the damage bonus to the Earthquake skill on this item is in the dibs category, and is additive with various other bonuses, such as Threatening Shout: Falter and Battle Rage. When combined, these add up to around a 3.65x multiplier (100 Base + 200 Tribes + 25 Falter + 30 rolls on chest\shoulder + 10 Battle Rage).
So, we need to go from the equivalent of 365 damage to 1500 damage (i.e. +9 GRs. 1.17^9 * 365 = 1499)
Blade of The Tribes should have its bonus set aside as a separate multiplier, and it should be made extractable in the cube. If this is done, the remaining dibs bonus will amount to a 1.65x multiplier. Since we needed to get to 1500 damage, 1500 / 1.65 = 909
So, we need Tribes to have a +800% multiplier, multiplicative.
This gives Fire Leapquake the full +15 GRs it needs.
Pro-Slam
Buffs for this build are addressed by the increased damage of MOTE(6).
Vile Charge
Note: an earlier version of this post suggested loading a considerable buff onto IK(6), increasing it from 4000% to 20000%. However, this would create an IK6W4 build more powerful than Zodiac Rend, which would be considerably out of balance with our other builds.
The first +2 GRs worth of damage can come from a direct buff to IK(6), as this applies some needed buffing to IK HOTA as well.
Current IK(6) multiplier of 41x * 1.17^2 = 56x, i.e. IK(6) increased from 4000% to 5500%.
Vile Charge still needs another +10 GRs, which can come in the form of a large buff to Standoff.
This item currently gives a bonus of about 550% damage (500% of bonus move speed * 110%, the amount VC Barbs generally operate with).
So we need to get from 650 to (650 * (1.17^10)) = 3124
Meaning Standoff needs to give a bonus of about +3000% damage, i.e 2700% of bonus movement speed (27 * 110 = 2970).
This gives Vile Charge the full +12 GRs it needs.
IK HOTA
The first +2 GRs this build needs are addressed by the increased damage of IK(6).
The remaining +8 GRs needed can come in the form of a buff to Remorseless.
Current Remorseless multiplier of 3.5x * 1.17^8 = 12.29, i.e. Remorseless needs a bonus of +1100%
This will give IK HOTA the full +10 GRs it needs.
H90 Frenzy
The +4 GRs / 2x damage needed by this build can come through a buff to H90(6).
Current H90(6) multiplier of 101x * 2.0 = 202x, i.e. H90(6) increased from 10000% to 20000%.
This gives H90 Frenzy the +4 GRs it needs.
Summary of Buffs
MOTE(6): increased from 20000% to 50000%.
IK(6): increased from 4000% to 5500%.
H90(6): increased from 10000% to 20000%.
Blade of the Tribes: Legendary power made extractable in the cube, made a separate multiplier, and increased from +200% to +800%.
Standoff: multiplier increased from “500% of bonus movement speed” to “2700% of bonus movement speed”.
Remorseless: multiplier increased from +250% to +1100%.
Conclusion
These six simple buffs will take the Barbarian class from having a single dominant build to having six or more competitive builds, a welcome change.
I think that the target should be GR 145. My suspicion is the weak builds were “underplayed” and the estimates of their true top potential is more than you think. Also, you can look at the worldwide leaderboards to quickly see that many top players are international.
With GR 145 as a target, I bet many builds will still see GR 148 clears for the top players workdwide.
Your point is that they can code new sets, but are not able to increase or decrease mere numbers, which even a primary school student can do? It is funny…
100% sure that 148 is not the WW limit, the player achieved this in 12:53. So, I think 145 is not enough (for weaker builds), the calculation should be @ 147 at least, as evidently, even WW, has not yet reached its maximum.
Not disputing your point, but I wanted to add something to yours and Phoenix’s conversation. I’m on an NDA with Blizzard and there’s a lot I can’t talk about, but what I can say with total confidence is that the iterative process that goes into coding new items and buffing old ones is similar, maybe identical.
What I mean is that wheth the dev team either is simply buffing an old, established multiplier, or creating a whole new item or affix, the design and testing process is the same. There are a lot of boxes to check, lots of red tape to navigate, etc. In other words, outside of the creation of art assets and in-game models, buffing old items or creating new ones takes a similar investment in time and effort on the part of the devs. Obviously making new stuff takes longer due to art and in-game models, but you get what I mean.
This is part of the reason they rarely buff anything outside of patches, even if only to increase or decrease something; obviously 2.6.7b was an exception.
Your point is that a child can do it, yet in 8 years it’s never been achieved, is as laughable as it is ridiculous.
What I find amusing in a lot of these conversations is people that say that balance is easy, it could be fixed in a day, I could do this with my eyes closed, children could do it…yet 8 years on, there are still the same arguments that happened when Barbs were OP in vanilla, DH’s were OP for the first two seasons etc etc etc
Talking a big game is the easiest thing in the world to do.
If it was so easy, it would already have been done.
