Barbs in 2.7: Community Discussion

Barbarian
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Hi everyone. Not long ago, the CMs revealed that 2.7 would be a balancing patch. What exactly that means, well, in standard Blizzard fashion, we can’t be entirely certain. But I think it’s safe to say that this quote will contextualize their approach to the patch:

At this late stage of game development, we’d prefer to focus on making the current game the best, and most varied, experience it can possibly be. We hope to accomplish this by (1) continuing to add new builds and (2) improving existing builds that have fallen behind.

This was written as a justification for not increasing the GR cap, but I think it is likely to inform 2.7 and beyond. I’d like to generate some discussion about what we, as a community, can request from the developers, particular in terms of what is and is not realistic.

Sets and Major Builds

Looking at the above quote, I don’t think we–or any class, really–will be getting new builds. I think the new sets fulfilled that goal, and I can’t see the dev team, small as they are, attempting to create and balance even more new builds. But I do think buffs to other builds are certainly possible, and definitely necessary.

The simplest route is to ask that all major builds be brought closer to Zodiac Rend in terms of intra-class parity, and I think it goes without saying that Rend requires no additional buffs.

H90 & Pro Slam

Our second strongest build seems to be either Pro Slam or H90 Frenzy, but both need a few GRs of buffs in terms of damage and toughness. For H90, I think adjusting set values will be the easiest way to go. For Pro Slam, I think a combination of set and supporting leg values will be necessary (see Fire EQ below).

IK HOTA

IK HOTA needs a buff, and the easiest way to do that is to buff the IK set’s damage multiplier. It might be really nice to include Together as One in the IK 2-piece bonus, but it’s certainly not necessary.

Fire & Physical EQ

For Fire and Physical EQ, I think the set values for damage need to be adjusted, but every increase to the MOTE set’s value will also buff Pro Slam. For this reason, I think the MOTE set and Blade of the Tribes need to be buffed in tandem (and, ideally, make the EQ bonus on Tribes a legendary affix that can be Cubed).

Raekor & Charge

Raekor is the hardest set to buff since its sole major build, R6 HOTA, steps on IK HOTA’s toes and relies on a widely reviled mechanic (wall-charging). I can’t speak for everyone, but I suspect no one would much lament the passing of R6 HOTA into obscurity.

The set’s other major build, Vile Charge, relies on the IK set’s damage multiplier. This means any buff to IK is a direct buff to Vile Charge, though not to pure Raekor builds (R6 HOTA).

Ideally, I’d like to see the set revamped to encourage a pure-Raekor Charge build, but I don’t know if that’s even remotely realistic given the amount of work that will have to go into balancing yet another brand new build. Perhaps a more realistic approach is to accept that Vile Charge is here to stay, leave the Raekor set alone, and focus on buffing supporting legendaries–such as Skular’s Salvation and Three Hundredth Spear–that can help make a pure R6 Charge + Toss build a reality. That’s still going to generate a new build, but at the very least, it helps the Raekor set to stand on its own.

Another way to approach it is to restrict the set’s 6-piece damage multiplier to Boulder Toss. No HOTA, no Rend, etc; Raekor stacks would only buff the damage of Boulder Toss. In conjunction with buffs to Skular’s and other items, this could offer us a powerful Boulder Toss build.

Miscellaneous Supporting Legendaries

Buffs to other supporting legendaries can help make off-meta builds fun. Ideally, I’d like to see buffed multipliers affixed to items such as Dread Iron, Arreat’s Law, and Blade of the Warlord. These items don’t have to be viable in the sense that they compete with our major builds, but they could stand to be much more powerful for general casual use.

Thanks for Coming to My Ted Talk

Kidding. Let me know what you think. The CMs are combing the boards for ideas and passing them onto the dev team, so the more constructive and generative feedback we can get in one place, the easier it will be to pass on ideas.

But I do want to ask that we avoid asking for things that seem unrealistic. Changes to active skills, new passives, and complete overhauls to sets and items (I know, I know, Raekor) are less likely to happen than buffs to existing items and builds that bring them closer to parity with Rend. Sure, it’s possible, but given the fact that all classes are getting adjusted, I don’t expect fundamental changes to skills to be on the table.

I’d also like us to be careful about beating dead horses. Would it be nice to make Overpower cool and powerful? Sure! Realistic? Nope! So, if you’re hankering for a beefy Overpower item or overhaul, sure, suggest it, and then move on.

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I would love to see Leap Quake buffed and I agree buffing/cubing Tribes is a great way to get the desired result without buffing Pro Slam in the process.

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I like the idea of moving the EQ bonus to be cubeable on Tribes.

There was nothing worse than getting an ancient with great stats, and then it rolled with 150% bonus :man_facepalming:

Would be awesome to see the MoTE set viable again.

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Ok, here’s what I think these various builds could do currently, at 10k paragon, in able hands:

MOTE Fire Leap: 133-134 (90+% confidence)
MOTE Phys Leap: 133-134 (90+% confidence)
MOTE Pro-Slam, Zodiac variant: 140 (75% confidence)
IK HOTA: 136 (75% confidence)
IK6R4 Vile Charge: 135-136 (100% confidence)
LON/LOD HOTA: 138 (75% confidence)
R6 HOTA: 138 (But: very difficult to play, because of the need to drop a skill from the bar in order to use Remorseless/COTA. 65% confidence)
H90 Frenzy: 141-142 (85% confidence)

So: if we’re just going to keep it simple and say “everything should be equalized with Zodiac Rend” (i.e. reach GR 148 at 10k paragon), then the +GR levels / damage buffs needed are:

MOTE Fire Leap: +14-15 / 9.75x
MOTE Phys Leap: +14-15 / 9.75x
MOTE Pro-Slam, CC+Zodiac variant: +8 / 3.5x
IK HOTA: +12 / 6.5x
IK6R4 Vile Charge: +12-13 / 7x
LON/LOD HOTA: +10 / 5x
R6 HOTA: +10 / 5x
H90 Frenzy: +6-7 / 2.75x

Starting with the 3 MOTE builds, there’s really no reason not to simply add +8 GRs to all 3 builds via buffing MOTE (6). That would bring Pro-Slam up to parity and mean we wouldn’t need quite as much added to legendary items. So, that means the 6 piece needs to go to about 70000% (up from 20000%).

At that point, Leap still needs about another +6.5 GRs / 2.75x multiplier, which means a buff to Girdle of Giants, Blade of the Tribes, or both.

The simplest would be to simply stick it on Tribes, while making it both a separate multiplier (rather than a dibs bonus) and an extractable power. With Tribes’ bonus pulled out of the dibs category, the additive buffs you typically run with Leapquake (TS:Falter, +EQ on Chest/Shoulders, Battle Rage, Brawler, etc) would be considerably more valuable. Assuming about 65 dibs (a 1.65x multiplier), you need Tribes to have a bonus of +500-550%. And, to repeat, that should be a separate multiplier.

That fixes both Pro-Slam and Fire Leapquake, but Phys Leap is in an unfortunate spot. Any more buffs to Tribes or GoG will push Fire Leap further ahead (since all the damage there comes from EQ), and any further buffs to SS items like FotVP or Fjord Cutter will push Pro-Slam, which gets all of its damage from Slam, further ahead.

Simply put, it is impossible to equalize Phys Leapquake simply by increasing numbers. The most interesting solution would probably be to rework the build in some way that perhaps incorporates a buffed Avalanche and Boulder Toss, but I think that’s beyond the scope of what we’re discussing at the moment.

Moving on to the IK builds: Since the two foremost IK builds, HOTA and VC, are very nearly equal at this point (in my estimation), it’s an easy thing to simply give both +13 GRs by adding a 6.5-7x multiplier directly to the IK set. That would put IK6 somewhere between 26700% and 28700%, let’s just split the difference and say 27500%.

The downside of this is that it means IK HOTA will leave LON HOTA and R6 HOTA in the dust. While I don’t think anybody will cry over R6 HOTA going down the drain, I know some players have a strong liking for LON HOTA (hi, Poconut!), so here is a somewhat more complicated solution that avoids that issue:

First, considerably increase the buff on Remorseless to +1650% (up from +250%), which adds +10 GRs to IK HOTA, LON HOTA, and R6 HOTA. The latter two of these are now equalized, and IK HOTA only needs +2 additional GRs, which means increasing IK6 from 4000% to 5500%.

Vile Charge, which just got +2 GRs at this point, can get the additional +10 it needs via a big buff to Standoff, which should increase to “2400% of bonus movement speed” (up from 500%).

Last but not least is H90 Frenzy. All this needs is for H90(6) to increase from 10000% to 27500% or 30000%, which gives the needed +6.5 or +7 GRs.

SUMMARY

MOTE(6) increased from 20000% to 70000%.

Blade of the Tribes increased from 200% additive to 550% multiplicative, and made extractable in the cube.

H90(6) increased from 10000% to 27500% or 30000%.

IK(6) increased from 4000% to 27500% (and R6 HOTA + LON HOTA both abandoned) .

OR

Remorseless increased from +250% to +1650%.
Standoff increased from 500% of bonus move speed to 2400% of bonus move speed.
IK(6) increased from 4000% to 5500%.

These changes would result in Barbs having 6-8 builds close to parity:

Zodiac Rend
MOTE 6 Pro-Slam
MOTE 6 Fire Leapquake
H90 Frenzy
IK6R4 Vile Charge
IK6 HOTA
*R6 HOTA
*LON/LOD HOTA

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I agree 100%. This is exactly what MOTE needs to be close to WW

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Is that an accurate “balance point” though? One person has done that…once.

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Well, it depends.

If what you mean is “148 is too low, all these builds should be able to do 150” OR what you mean is “148 is too high, all of these builds should only be able to do 140”, then that’s a separate issue, and I’m not really weighing in on that here. I’m just talking about what it would take for these other builds to come up to the current level of Zodiac Rend.

If, on the other hand, you mean “Only one person ever cleared 148 with Zodiac Rend, so that isn’t the norm!” then, well, I agree…

But the number of people reaching the top GR for any build is always going to be very small. You’ve already seen the GR levels I figure those builds can get to, but here are where they’re actually at, to the best of my knowledge:

Pro-Slam: 138 (Ulmaguest)
Fire Leap: 130 (Ulmaguest)
Phys Leap: 128 (A Korean player)
H90 Frenzy: 139 (Jedizinid)
Vile Charge: 135 (Darkpatator)
IK6 HOTA: 133 (Titannova)
R6 HOTA: 133 (A Korean player)
LON/LOD HOTA: ?

In each of these cases, too, it’s been just one person who’s cleared it, one time.

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This was more what I meant.

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Let’s say each of these builds ended up being able to hit 148 max, in the hands of a very skillful 10k paragon player. Each would also have a lower GR number that same player could clear nearly 100% of the time.

For builds which thrive on density, and derive enormous benefit from RNG, like Zodiac Rend, Fire Leap, or Vile Charge, that number would probably be about 10 GRs lower. For H90 Frenzy, which does very well with single targets, it would probably be only 5-6 GRs. And the HOTA builds would probably be somewhere in-between.

So, assuming these buffs, that 10k paragon, skilled player could probably clear 142 100% of the time with H90 Frenzy, 140 100% of the time with HOTA, and 138 100% of the time with Zodiac Rend, Vile Charge, or Leapquake.

If you were talking about a skilled player with only 3k paragon, you can knock about 6 GRs off each of those figures. If they’re not very skillful, you can knock off a few more.

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I get what you’re saying.

I’ve always said that “balance” is a unicorn. I also made a comment in the other thread about it not really being attainable anyway, simply because the players are smarter than the Dev’s, and better at the game than the Dev’s.

Even if they managed to find a group of intra and cross class balanced unicorns, the players will find a way to make certain builds/classes better. They always have.

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It’s just a matter of degree. Can the devs get all these sets perfectly balanced so they attain the exact same top GR? No, probably not. And if not, who cares? “Close” is close enough.

I guess I’m a bit confused what your perspective is. You said you want MOTE (by which I think you mean specifically Fire Leapquake, yes?) to be viable again. Well, what does “viable” mean, if you think that “balance is a unicorn” (by which I assume you mean: balance is pointless / impossible / so difficult as to seem impossible)?

I mean, Leapquake is comparatively weak right now. The best it can do is somewhere between 130 and 134. But if you add a bunch of damage, it’ll go higher. The closer it gets to 148, the more balanced it’ll be in relation to our highest-clearing build. Same thing goes for all those other builds.

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Correct

I am saying that even if they can achieve balance, which I don’t think they can, between classes, and sets within classes, they are still balancing on what we are using right now.

But that won’t last because players will come up with ways to improve builds, which will make them stronger again, leading us back to the whole balance argument/debate/discussion all over again.

What arbitrary GR number they use doesn’t really matter.

Players are smarter and better at the game, they will find a way to better the builds.

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Sure, but like I said, that’s really a matter of degree. What you’re describing does happen, but not to the degree you’re thinking. It’s not as though X build clears GR 120 at best, and everybody accepts that for a long time, and then all of a sudden somebody comes along, plays brilliantly, finds a new setup, and clears GR 150. When even really great players raise the bar for a build, it’s by a few GRs, not some massive amount.

At this point all these classic Barb builds we’re talking about have been played a ton, over the years. Buffing the raw damage of MOTE 6 or IK 6 or Blade of The Tribes doesn’t add any weird new mechanics to be exploited. If the buffs I suggested were adopted, might some 10k paragon player end up clearing 149 or 150 using Leapquake? I doubt it, but sure, maybe. Will they clear 150 in 7 minutes? No. Will they be unable to clear 140? No.

Anyway, you still haven’t answered my question! What does “viable” mean, to you?

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I think we basically agree lol

For me, I like options, If I want to play Whirl/Rend, or MoTE, or IK, I’d like to know that they have roughly the same potential, at the same gear and paragon levels.

For me, for the last few seasons I’ve been in the 120-125 GR solo range.

Last season I had all the pieces for Fire MoTE, jumped into a 90 (granted the gear probably wasn’t rolled or enchanted perfectly) but it felt horrible to play, took forever to kill things, and was squishy as hell.

Would I have expected to jump straight into a 120 and beat it, no, but to be THAT far behind was a shock to me, and I am well aware of the problems within the Barb sets.

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In my opinion, balancing decisions should not be based on the absolute peak performance of a build (ie: the GR148). Rather they should based on the median or average GR achieved by the overall base of players for a particular build.

Rage has taken it a step further here by estimating theoretical extremes that have never even been hit for each build, based on paragon 10k which 99.99% of the population of users will never reach.

Hopefully what Blizz does is look at the average GR cleared for each build (assuming their software even has the capability to accurately segment data by build), and make tweaks based on that data.

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Where do I sign, how much will it cost, and cash or charge, what will be the preferred method? hahaha.

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There’s a very real problem that comes to buffing other Barb sets (actually for most classes at this point really, especially after GoD), and that is simply this:

Will anyone really use anything other then WW, when all you have to do is channel WW forever and never drop Wrath? It is so amazingly effective and efficient that I really can’t see anything changing, unless they either kneecap WW or buff something else to the point of hilarity.

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Well, personally, I’d be perfectly happy pushing some GRs using IK/HOTA or H90/Frenzy if they had anywhere near the power/survivability of WW/Rend.

Never really been a fan of the bouncy or charge sets though.

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For farming and low gem ups? Probably not. For pushes? Many of us enjoy the other set playstyles and would absolutely use them for push runs if we knew that the potential was there.

IMO to get the true potential out of Zodiac ww/rend in the push build you need to do more than just WW and keep WotB up, such as pulling density, ground stomping to keep BoM buff up and pulling into occulus bubbles and manually hard casting rend to maximize AD. I’m not saying it is the most complicated build ever in D3, but it’s far from a right click only fest, and I find it a lot more engaging than the speed farm version.

I really like the playstyle of IK HotA, just wading through the monster ranks and smashing everything, and over the years since I’ve been playing it (since season 4!) I’ve managed to get pretty good gear for it. But lately with H90 having a similar experience and much higher potential, and Zodiac WW/Rend so good at high farming and pushing, I haven’t been motivated to play it much, and haven’t put in the effort to get a good EF or better Remorseless. A juicy buff to the build would change that, and I could put subs if my small amounts of playtime towards it.

So I’m in favor of trying to get the clear potential for the main barb sets as equal as is feasible, and think using the method Rage outlined makes sense, even though in loath to have to re-farm Remorseless! :rofl:

I wish there was some way to make our cool 2H mighty weapons be viable to actually equip instead of cube fodder, but I think that would take changes out of the scope of this.

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Some people don’t like WW. :man_shrugging:t3: