That was interesting, WHEN? 
Where have you been for the last 8 years?
Simple recent example: They have now nerfed the AoV Crusader three times, and still can’t get it right.
If balance is so easy, why has it taken three attempts to still be nowhere?
And a follow up, the new Wiz set got nerferd twice(?) before it was even released to live, and is now so bad that people don’t even use it because the LoD variation is so much better.
Again, they have tried, they have failed.
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It is funny how your argument … I wonder if you can see the failure there …
Ok … AoV is … 8 years old? Have they tried for 8 years nerf AoV and SP?
They will probably only have 1 more patch to solve this, but ONLY because they were not looking at Ivory Tower, Version pig sticker is ok.
I never said that in just 1 patch I would fix things, on the other hand, you terribly exaggerate things to promote your argument.
Reading is apparently not your strong point.
Also worth noting that it was you that made the point about not having the old Devs anymore.
This is what the new ones are capable of.
You’re making my point for me.
I have never claimed that either. But in 21 seasons they’ve never managed to achieve it.
Actually, we seem to have gotten way off track of what my discussion was 
My main point was that even if they can, the scope of the argument will just change. The argument will become about X build can clear 3 GRs higher than Y build, NERF X NOW!!!
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That sums up your whole point so far.
Yes, I’m the one who has reading problems.
I am genuinely not sure you’re not just trolling at this point.
Two comments from two completely different conversations.
1/10. Would not recommend.
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Never gonna happen but…thornzy buff would be nice. Well nice for me anyway and considering I’m the most important guy I know…
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Do we feel that our builds have the toughness to take advantage of the damage buffs we’re proposing? I know incoming damage scales much slower with GR Tiers than monster HP, but just want to make sure that we think about toughness as well. Many of our builds are in the thick of it and have to face tank to deal consistent damage.
That’s a fair question. I think that the answer is generally “yes”, but let’s assume for a minute that the answer is actually “no”, and look at what you’d need to do to get more defense.
First, a note on the amount of extra damage we’re actually talking about:
The highest buff amount is to Fire Leapquake, which hopefully is gaining 15 GRs worth of damage. Since incoming damage grows at 2.3% per GR level, 1.023^15 = 1.406, i.e. you’d be taking 41% more damage.
The lowest buff is to H90 Frenzy, hopefully gaining 4 GRs worth of damage. 1.023^4 = 1.095, i.e. you’d be taking 10% more damage.
So here are the steps you can take:
Fire Leapquake: Trade out Zei/Gogok for Esoteric. This more or less triples your defense against non-physical attacks. And this build is already very tanky. Layering the huge MOTE(4) armor bonus + BoM + APDs + Esoteric makes you incredibly tough, to the point that you can take multiple Molten explosions in the face, or even survive multiple hits from Raiziel’s holy nova. Dropping Zei/Gogok will cost you 1-3 GRs of damage, at which point you’ll have gained “only” 12-14 GRs worth of damage from the buff.
Vile Charge: Trade out Wreath of Lightning for Esoteric. This costs you only about 1 GR of damage.
IK HOTA: Trade out Pain Enhancer / Powerful for Esoteric. Costs 1-2 GRs.
Pro-Slam: Just run the BoM/CC version of the build (i.e. not the one that drops BoM for Zodiac). This build is already absurdly tanky. I run around with well over 2 Billion toughness most of the time. Most people already seem to play this version of the build, and it’s maybe 1-2 GRs weaker than the Zodiac variant.
H90 Frenzy: 10% more incoming damage isn’t really all that much, but anyone who wanted to be tougher could choose from a variety of options. Dropping CoE for Unity would double your toughness and cost you 2-3 GRs. Less extreme would be to drop Rampage/Brawler for Superstition, Nerves of Steel, Relentless, or Tough as Nails, which costs only about 0.5 GRs.
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Good deal thanks for the response!
I think that the best way to handle this is to not allow support HOTA legendary items to be equipped when Reakor item are equipped. The HOTA items would be unequippable much like other cross class item are unequippable.
And of course, a substantial buff to 300th and Skular’s.
Oof, ok, I just realized this part is no good:
The reason is that this would enable people to play an IK6W4 setup that is more powerful than Zodiac Rend. Not what we want!
So, we have to go back to getting buffs for VC and IK HOTA with more weight on Standoff and Remorseless, and less on IK(6).
I’ll revise my post to reflect this.
Thanks, Rage. I’m going to read this more closely later today, and will work on an updated post.
Well, my info is limited to the current state of the game, but I do know that getting even the smallest proposed buff through the proper channels is a time-consuming process. There are also a lot–and I mean a lot–of weird technical issues to consider due to the old tech Blizzard uses to house the game, and that slows down the process even more.
Not exactly. Work on the updated sets and items began long before they were announced. Much of the work that goes into this stuff begins at least two patches ahead of schedule. When we first released our Barb Buff Proposal, we were very disappointed in the next patch to only receive Mortick’s. But of course the devs had heard us and were working on our updated items (this was lated confirmed). The problem was that the iterative process for tweaking/buffing items is, as noted above, lengthy, and they were also working on new class sets by then.
I don’t know for certain which set took the longest, but by the time the first new class set dropped, they were already a patch ahead in terms of design. But when I say “a patch ahead,” that doesn’t mean their work was limited to just the new sets being developed. It also had to do with Season Themes and all the other stuff that comes with major D3 patches. There’s a lot of unknown, behind-the-scenes work that goes into each patch, and the CG team doesn’t work on Diablo exclusively. They’re often pulled in several directions at once, and even with a smooth worflow model, they’re going to get into situations where there’s more time for Diablo this patch, less time on the next. This doesn’t even take into account the various corporate mandates that no doubt derail them from time to time.
What I know from insider discussions is that there are a ton of variables at play in pushing out D3 patches, but that’s just the tip of the iceberg. There’s a lot more that I–and we–don’t know.
Good catch – I had just gotten to that section and was like . . . 20,000%? 
Well, you can’t lock which items go in the Cube because HOTA items aren’t cross-class items. It doesn’t make sense to break the fundamental rule of itemization just to quietly cut one build out of the frame.
Buffing IK HOTA to make sure it’s better than R6 boils down to a combination of set and item buffs that rival what R6 can bring to the table.
I would absolutely LOVE this. Honestly, I’m jonesing for a pure R6 Boulder Toss build!
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Ok, edits are completed, disaster averted.
Maybe in addition to the specific numbers I’ve created, we can also just have a sort of “laundry list” at the end of other weak or broken stuff, without giving specific numbers or fixes.
Something along the lines of:
“Many other skills and items serve no useful purpose…etc,etc”
Avalanche / Dread Iron
300th / Boulder Toss / Weapon Throw / Skular’s
Bash / Warlord
Cleave / Dishonored
Overpower / Saffron / LOL
etc
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Precisely what I’m working on. Thanks for updating the post. Hoping to write a more thorough response later tonight!
Why are you on an NDA with Blizz? Hopefully they’re paying you well!
I can’t discuss many of the details, but I can say that they do not pay me and I am not a representative or employee of Blizzard.
This is pretty much part of the point I was making about it not being as easy as a lot of people seem to want to make out.
As usual, you’re just better at the words than I. 
Thematically it seems odd that small 1H Remorseless gives a much higher bonus than GoJ, but I understand that it must be so in order to avoid R6 HotA getting a huge buff, and IK WW being off the charts of the buff is only on IK as you noted. I’m also salty because I have a fairly decent 249 ancient Remorseless, but oh well, refarm is the name of the game with D3!
Great job writing everything up, hopefully the devs see it and are able to action the entire list! Thank you for your efforts!
You realise that if you two (Free and Rage) come up with a second Barbarian buff proposal that gets listened to again, the amount of virtual beers I send you both is going to be endless.
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