I’ll add my 2 cents too:
WW Rend OP, but S19 season theme OK?
33 likes…
Why? Explain plz.
It is funny that you post that, because in that video they only talk about improving/buffing and adding mechanical changes, but not about reducing or increasing damage numbers.
I mean even I advocate for mechanical buffs, for example I talked with you in your Barbarian Proposal Thread about how great it would be if Leap had 2 or 3 charges instead of a cooldown. That is a mechanical buff. But you declined to add that suggestion into your proposal.
So ironically the video makes a stronger claim to this particular suggestion of mine than it does to not nerfing the numbers of the outlier builds.
With “the thing” I wasn’t referring to the existence of Greater Rifts, but to “the need/desire for constant powercreep”.
Gerald. Jerry. Ger.*
Work with me.
That video deals with a fighting game, a genre that is fundamentally about PvP and not about PvM in scaling difficulty content. In fighting games, if you buff damage (which sometimes happens), you offer a linear increase in power to the character in contrast to other characters (players). A bad 10-frame attack that deals bad damage is, well, bad, but the same attack that deals monster damage has the potential to break the game.
Of course, we’re not talking about a fighting game, but the ideas are the same: You don’t nerf to create more opportunities–you buff to make players feel empowered, to create more diverse content, and to make familiar ways of playing the game feel fresh and new.
Interestingly enough, Barbs got that all three of those with the new Rend items and were brought up to par with the ~140 crowd.
And somehow… that still deserves a nerf?
HELL NO!
You overlooked the most important point of the video: “Balance is worthless by itself.”
A nerf to Rend will make the build less exciting, less fun, and less enjoyable for Barb players. By keeping the buffs, Barbs get the chance to have a more exciting, fun, and enjoyable time. They get a chance to express themselves through the build–to “feel” that sense of enjoyment through the mechanics of game play. That’s far more important than some far-flung notion of “balance.”
And maybe the most pressing question: What does anyone lose if Barbs buffs remain in tact?
Will it diminish how high Demon Hunters can push? Will it deter folks from enjoying Vyrs? Will it somehow make die-hard Crusader fans give up their class?
Buffing doesn’t detract from anyone. Nerfing does.
Work with me.
In a game where end-game ranked play revolves around a scaling difficulty (GRs), what is the alternative to going up?
Would you prefer to clear the same GR–say, 100–over and over in different ways with different builds? That sounds unbelievably boring.
At some point, you need a way of becoming more powerful that isn’t based solely on Paragon.
Again, you yearn for a very different D3. That’s not the game we have, and that’s not where the game is going.
Buffs, not nerfs. That’s what we need.
- Bonus points to anyone who knows where that came from!
3 Likes
Jerry Macguire? 20 characters
Afraid not.
But good try!
A worthy quote from Gasnick in the GD thread.
5 Likes
Well any way…“SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!”
And by money I mean mean buffs 
Oh, yes! Absolutely!!! Without a question!
I would prefer to have let’s say 100 different meta builds that can compete at GR100, rather than having just 3 meta builds that can do GR140.
And in fact, it almost is hard for me to believe how anyone would wanna advocate for the opposite.
A GR100 plays no different than a GR150. just the numbers are different. However, different builds play differently and that is where the fun is.
Yes, but the feeling of empowerment does not exist in a vaccum.
Let’s say you have 100 different builds that can do GR100. Then you have 10 builds that can do GR120 and 3 builds that can do GR140. Now you buff all builds that can only do GR100 to the level that they can do GR140, but you buff the 10 builds that can do GR120 to being able to do GR170.
Then you have empowered all builds, but would that make you feel powerful when you suddenly play a build that only can do GR140 and not GR170?
What I mean is that (a certain amount of) balance and the feeling of being powerful go hand in hand.
Why? What is the exact reason that you would now consider the Rend WW build to be fun, while it previously wasn’t? Does it play significantly different than before? Or is it because now it can compete at the top with that build?
Hell, if that is the case then you can not imagine how I feel where basically all the builds that I like to play are significantly underperforming.
Furthermore, I can tell you that your feeling of being powerful does not exist in the vacuum of Barbarians only being able to do GRxxx, but that it also depends on the context of what other builds can do, so if the outliners would be nerfed, your Barbarian builds would suddenly create this feeling of being powerful as well. That is what I mean when I say that (a certain amount of) balance and the feeling of being powerful go hand in hand.
You fail to understant what I am talking about here the whole time.
I do not (just) talk about nerfing this particular Barbarian build. I am talking about nerfing all the outlier builds, not just this particular Barb build.
So again, if all the outlier builds would be nerfed, all other builds would benefit from that, while at the same time the builds that are currently outlier builds would still remain viable. It literally is a win-win.
And in the video they also talk about how a nerf actually benefited a game and increased players enjoyment.
You see, nerfing is not necessarily equivalent to less fun.
The funny thing is that a nerf maybe hurts a certain amount of players, but it increases the enjoyment of a significantly larger amount of players who are now somewhat at the same level power as those previously top builds.
Constant buffing has not brought more enjoyment and build diversity. I repeat: constant buffing has not brought more enjoyment and build diversity. On the contrary.
However, balance would have done that. Yes, a few players might would be annoyed for a short amount of time, but in the ong run it would have benefited the game tremendously.
Just look at Starcraft. Starcraft has quite regularly seen adjustments (including nerfs) and that all was really good for the game (for the most part.
How so? What is the D3 that you think I want is?
All I am saying is that nerfs can be very, very healthy for a game, while constant buffing is not necessarily equivalent to making the game better in the long run.
2 Likes
Yeah, but I replied to that with a screenshot of a S18 player with almost 5.5K paragon…
Genuine or bot though?
And 5.5K paragon still wasn’t clearing 140
Indeed, it was a GR143…
2 Likes
Is this the guy they were talking about with a 22.5 hour per day played average for the season?
And I am pretty sure the 5K paragon not clearing 140 was in realtion to WW Barbs, not a general comment about all players/classes.
If it’s no different than clear a GR150 solo in the same amount of time as you can clear a GR100…
You can’t have that many builds for META, because not every class set or LoD build is good for 4 man group clears even if all class sets or LoD combinations could clear GR150.
Some combinations of players in META, might just lag out the game…
I already cleared that out in the “Barb Nerf = No S19” thread… By highier than 5000 I meant 5000-5999 paragon…
Anyway that 143GR clear with 5438 paraon only proves my point that WW Rend from PTR is not OP at all…
Just check the numbers 10500 to clear a GR140 and 5438 to solo a GR143…
If the calculations made by some “math experts” in here are correct and the chantodo’s nerf is indeed only a drop of 2-3 GRs (-2 or -3 GRs), than even with 6000-6500 paragon you could clear a GR140 solo with a Wizard after the nerf…
So compare:
Over 10500 paragon to clear a GR140 with WW Rend
to
6000-7000 or less paragon to complete a GR140 with Wizard after the nerf…
These numbers above are all assumptions and we won’t find out how it really turns out to be if we can’t test the PTR WW Rend on live servers…
Well then, you get busy with your programer degree, create a gaming, balance it, and I’ll be all over it.
Proverbs 26:5
Answer a fool according to his folly…
I do not think that it proves what you think. You are comparing a non-season clear with a seasonal clear. The 143 clear you refer to is seasonal that has a buff that includes the triune rings that confers 100% damage buff, 50% discount on resource costs, or 50% cooldown reduction.
The top wizard clear in non-season was 144 @ 10,540 paragon.
So you are claiming the S18 buff is worth over 5000 Paragon?
1 Like
Since they cleared different greater rift levels (144 non-season vs. 143 season), the answer to your question is no.
So you wish to do a silly game of Simon says then. Is it worth 17% less damage than 5000 Paragon then?
1 Like
He doesn’t know what he means.
He’s too busy arguing both sides to boost his post count.
4 Likes
This sums up his arguments:
2 Likes