Angels in Diablo 4?

General Discussion
82

Well the only angels that we know of for a fact that despise humanity and see them as an abominations are Imperius and the angels who follow him. Last that we saw them, Archangels Auriel and Itherael possess no such hatred for humanity, which I think it’s safe to assume the same could be said for their followers. That said, while Auriel and itherael may not possess any hatred towards Sanctuary, it’s safe to say that they also have no love for it either, at least not near the level that Tyrael has for it.

To keep it simple, if the majority of angels did consider Humanity as abomination, to the point of wanting humanity eradicated, then closing their gates would be among the last things that they would do. And instead they’d likely just vote for humanity’s destruction, that’s not to say that they’d succeed. As instead they’d likely fight a struggling battle in that regard, but Imperius is stubborn enough to initiate a fight, even if the chances of victory are slim (we’ve seen that before).

No problem, they’re usually an enjoyable read.

The only thing we know of regarding the High Heaven laws is that consorting with demons is forbidden (which was broken by Inarius and number of renegade angels), and to not interfere with Sanctuary (which Tyrael had done).

As for Malthael’s followers never returning, I’m sure the Angiris Council assumed it was because the followers were steadfast in their search for Malthael and as such didn’t think it was worth reprimanding. Malthael’s actions were unknown to them, but with him being the former leader of the Angiris council, it was trust, love, and respect that kept them from growing suspicious of Malthael’s actions. Of course, it was that very same trust, love, and respect that made the angiris council (including Tyrael), blind to Malthael’s decent into madness.

A lesser profile Angel would’ve been slain on the spot if discovered. For example, Balzael was slain by Imperius without a trial, mostly because he attempted to kill Tyrael despite the fact that by Imperius’s knowledge, Balzael had acted within reason. It was only because Tyrael is such a high profile angel, that he was spared from such fate.

Not that weird when you consider things like time prisons which can trap both demons and angels in stasis for thousands of years, and the High Heavens never made the effort to reclaim their angelic warriors who were trapped there. So for any angels who stayed to fight in the battlefield of Eternity (note that I’m not talking about the angels who came to assist us during act 5), it’s highly likely that they were out of the loop regarding various events including the creation of Sanctuary, the birth of the Nephalems and so forth.

Hmm, I believe I see the issue here. Our take on “Heaven closing it’s doors” differ from one another. Your take (if I’m accurate that is), is that Heaven has cut any and all connections between themselves and Sanctuary and as such they themselves would no longer have the ability to enter Sanctuary even if they wished to, the same could be said vice versa as well whereas those on Sanctuary would be unable to ever enter Heaven even if they wished to. And so if an angel happens to leave the High Heavens right before the gate is closed, then they would be, in a sense, stranded on Sanctuary but at the same time freed from the High Heavens shackles (mostly). Now if that is your take (if it’s not, then I apologize for assuming), then yes you’d be absolutely correct in your statement that an angel could stay hidden on Sanctuary in that regard.

Personally, my take on it is a less literal interpretation and instead it’s more as in the High Heavens no longer intend to interact with Sanctuary, but will continue to observe from a safe distance. Pretty much similar to how the High Heavens had treated Sanctuary ever since the events of the Sin Wars.

Yes, but unlike the real world, the World of Diablo operates on the basis of magic and supernatural. And plenty of characters (both angels and demons) have shown themselves to be attuned to sensing and discerning either angelic or demonic essence, be it in objects or living creatures. That’s of course isn’t to say that this ability is without flaw.

That said, this discussion actually has me pumped for more info regarding Diablo 4 lore. Honestly, it’s to the point where I wouldn’t mind a blog (not the quarterly updates mind you), where most of the contents was used to elaborate further lore points.

83

I think you still have too high Hopes on them :slight_smile:

Lets try and picture it this way :slight_smile: :sunflower:
If you would be a City and you have to deal with a Bunch of Bandits, batteling over a Spring for quite some Time. And after 30 Years of War a Bunch of Monkeys arrive, stealing this Well.
And now you see, that the Monkeys and the Bandits are slaughtering each other.

Would you interfear … Or just wait to leand the final Blow, who ever might stand atop ?


And on them beeing frindly …
Frindly doesn´t mean, that they respect them.
Even a Master can be frindly to his Slave. But this doesn´t mean, that he recocnise him as more than a Chair or a Pet.


€dit:

Yea … I know … It´s not all about Moorcoock XD
But have you read the Book´s of Corum ?

84

I can assure you that my hopes in the high heavens only pertains to their ability to act with order. As already mentioned, they have little to no qualm with slaying mortal, however for the most case they’d only do so if it’s deemed necessary. That said, if the angiris council voted for the destruction of Sanctuary, I have no doubt that most of the angels would do so without question.

In fact, a better way to look at it would be “How many angels would be willing to disobey or even rebel if the Angiris Council decided on the Destruction of Humanity?” I’m confident that the number of angels willing to do either is few in comparison to the number of angels who are would obey the order of the Angiris Council without question.

So in short, while I don’t believe most of the High Heavens hate humanity to the point of wishing to eradicate them, that doesn’t mean that I think they wish to befriend us either. If anything, Humanity is a thorn to their side, however until they receive the OK from the Angiris Council, most of the High Heavens won’t act against Humanity.

An interesting analogy, unfortunately it’s neverending as the bandits constantly revive themselves.

I’m afraid I have not as of yet.

85

Do you know that when a narcissists assaults you, they assault you with projection and follow up with taking your achievements for their own. Or, if you did something good, and they did less, what do they do ? They attack the quality/amount of work you did. And proceed to overblow their own achievements. So, they flip reality upside down. If this is your co-worker, then your superiors will think that you really did less and the narcissist takes praise for the job well done. They are all happy and look at you that they want to fire you, as the weak link they see you to be . The narcissist is on his/her way to getting a promotion :smiley:

If you ever wondered why fantasy games for some rather hard to explain reason, other than agenda, always feature a multi-god environment ? Translation, false-god environment … False god can be even an idea, or an object. It usually tends to be oversized carved heads to imply size of something not seen, it is a work of art and that is it. (plentiful in D2 desert big stone heads sticking out of sand, jungle - wooden heads, act 5 Malah building)

I wonder where they learned about that, but I dont think this is ‘public knowledge’. Other game makers also use such symbolism, and I am very sure most gamers have no idea what it implies.

D2 which I used to play a lot long ago mentions True Light. Since WCIII (2002) blizz has been removing everything Christian from sight and text as well. WC II even had Deo Gratias sung when clicked on church. That was 1995. If you never heard or saw it, it is said or sung at the end of a latin Holy Mass - Ite missa est - response, Deo gratias… So connections to RL were there. And they did stay, only paganism was left alone, which represents the forces of decadence, disorder, violence. Christian motives were made to disappear. Surely, it has to do with internal values of company/environment.

So, I generally do disregard what they claim to be their lore, I look for things that are actually very important to the details of what kind of values they are trying to push down their audiences throats, or conscious and subconscious.

There are people genuinely misled about who or what is bad and what is right. Some people genuinely believe certain Adolf was defending himself, no aggression no Generalplan Ost, just fairytales, that he was a victim. (one could argue it to a certain minor extent was true, not covering for his responsibility) Some want to clean up their family names by claiming those were the good guys. This is production of moral relativism, where feelings instead of facts are pushed as more important. Like somebody feels threatened, so lets push the nukes out of their silos. Yes, Im on topic, I just dont want to be too boxed in by what the game refers to as lore. For me it is an excuse at pushing narratives.

WC III removed crosses except from graves xD and pushed the egyptian ankh, some say it means female genitalia, or more PC, that it means life … I dont care, but I would bet even in the old paganry that thing had to have much more context just to put it in a game and tell all is cool.

WC III God-phobia reached new levels, with the altar for humans only saying Hallelu- Praise- Yah means God, the One that Is. They knew it but most people wouldn’t spot it. Devilry was pushed, not just allowed. Sure, for people who dont take these things too seriously, whatever. Trashy entertainment about which they forgot 15 years ago at best. Moved on and never looked back. Same for D1/2 etc.

if I get to corporate level, God teaches all sorts of things against greed and exploitation, Bible says of God punishing old Israelites for greed and exploitation and enslavement of those who they promised to free and even freed them for a short while. God told them that they would be freed to the sword for that abuse. From this perspective, the many biblical examples when looked from correct perspective are things that are hostile to the corporate lawless regime. I don’t know what is the corporate income tax in the US right now, but I heard that after WW2, it was 91% during Eisenhower. At the Cold War’s end, your corporates felt that they had no competition so the powermongering led them to new degenerate levels. Having someone or something that gnaws at them, that they do wrong and that there will be retribution, is not something that gives good sleep to somebody who, say, even paid politicians to get into a war so they could make more profit.

I think this is one of reasons why they have problems with God. Removing any notions of Him does not make Him disappear. We did have something like this here during communism, where you were second class if you dared go to church. Witchdoctors (devil users) sprang up and werent so cracked down on even though commies regarded themselves as scientific ideology, you know, all reason and science. Not quite with this double standard. It smells the same.

86

In the End, they see themself as the higher or better Race.
So why should they get theyr Hands dirty, if the Demons would do the Job ?

As do They.
But why getting his own Hand´s dirty, if another one can do it, while you may have the upper Hand, while theyr greatest Leader (the three Brothers and maybe even some of the other four), are out of Control ?
This would be a great Oppertunity to strike.


Do it :slight_smile: :sunflower:
Likes most of his Works it takes some Time, but the Story is good and has some Twists :slight_smile:

87

Dude … get your Life right -.-

Do you know, that we dont´t care apon your Opinion, because we just do what we want ?


Maybe he should teach you how Life works and how to live it :man_facepalming:
Becaus Erath in the only Plain you will know and feel it.
Know matter what might come after this.

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88

You’re actually very accurate. ^^ I don’t think Blizzard would have talked about a “closing the gates” if it were just the same situation as ever (only angels and the Prime Evil able to open portals to Heaven).

Balzael was in a fight with Tyrael in Heaven, which is drawing attention beyond compare to an angel fleeing in secret. Also, he was not a random angel but a lieutenant to Imperius.

Certainly, in a limited range. But anywhere in a whole world… Heaven and Sanctuary are even in different dimensions.

That’s right, but I wasn’t thinking about such cases, more of regular sentinels and guards monitoring the battlefields, including in the many worlds we’ve barely heard about.

Haha, that’s a pretty good idea, seeing how passionate and well versed you seem to be the lore. Go for it ! :facepunch:

89

The High Heavens were closed to us. They know the location, or how to get to Sanctuary. They can come back whenever they choose.

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90

Truth be told I think they had stated it in order to stomp out any speculation of us fighting angels in Diablo, and also to have us expect no assistance from the High Heavens.

But he was a lesser profile compared to Tyrael, and Imperius killed Balzael without hearing Balzael’s reasoning for fighting with Tyrael, even though from Imperius’s perspective, Tyrael had committed an offense of bringing invaders to the High Heavens to steal the black soulstone and killing an angel. I mean it’d been one thing if Imperius simply subdued Balzael, but no, instead he simply killed Balzael, quickly and painfully.

That’s not to say that a fleeing angel of an even lesser profile would meet the same fate, however if caught trying to flee, they’d likely be put on trial, judged, and either killed, imprisoned, or severely punished; especially if they were fleeing to Sanctuary of all worlds.

Yes, but this dimension doesn’t cover hide Sanctuary from Heaven’s eyes. So if they were really looking for something or someone, they’d find it or them in due time. Especially if they believe it to be a missing Angel.

Oh, I wasn’t referring to them, as they come back to Heaven to routinely report news. I was speaking about those who were still deep in battle with the demons on the battlefields of eternity and as a result had yet to return to the High Heavens.

I’ll probably will, but it’d involve turning the lore section of the forums into a journal series of some sort. That said, hopefully we’ll learn more regarding “Heaven closing it’s gates”, unless we literally have to wait for Diablo 4 to learn more, which also wouldn’t be bad.

91

I’m sure they would be, if they are found.

Maybe, maybe not. It’s a very arbitrary rule in a fantasy universe that’s tied to the needs of storytelling. For example, in Star Wars, Obi-Wan and Yoda managed to hide from Sidious and Vader virtually forever, even though they had the full might of the Empire and deep knowledge of the Force to find them.

We may have lost track of the initial argument here, at first I was refering to a rogue angel in an outpost that did not come back to the Heavens. Then you answered with this concept of lost angels still fighting the Eternal Conflict and not knowing about Sanctuary (though even these may eventually learn the truth and go to our world).

That’s very possible. But since Luis confirmed one or several angels will have a part in D4, it raises questions. The only thing that seems certain is that they are not agents from the Heavens.

92

Admittedly, I know very little about star wars, so I can’t say much regarding that. However thus far in the Diablo verse, no angel had been able to hide from Heaven’s eyes, at least not without the power of a powerful object, like the Worldstone, and even that isn’t absolute.

I believe we’re on the same page, as I was referring to those rogue angels that are just fighting the demons that still remain on the battlefields of eternity. Not the ones that run recon missions (or similar missions) for Heaven. The angels stuck in stasis were just another example of such angels abandoned by Heaven. Of course, the situation may have changed after the events of RoS.

True, but keep in mind that we already have candidates that fufill such conditions, for example Tyrael (while he may be mortal, we don’t know if his lifespan is the same as humans so he may still be alive in Diablo 4), Inarius (unlikely imo, but not impossible if the conditions are right), Izual (a fallen and/or corrupted angel, but it’s stated by Itherael that Izual still retains some of his angelic goodness, albeit it’s faded). These three angels, are probably the only ones who could operate either without Heaven’s gaze noticing, and/or Heaven caring.

Note: I’m certainly not saying that Izual will turn over a new leaf or anything like that.

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93

Even when angels and demons try to conceal their presence, other angels and demons sense something even if they can’t pinpoint who, what, and/or where. It’s very unlikely one could have been in hiding that l8ng without being discovered.

94

I wouldn’t be upset if any of these three angels were to come back in D4 but I’d prefer someone new. I think it’s important for the universe to go forward and not keep on rehashing on the same old character over and over. Same for new ideas and concept.

95

My guess is two angels, Tyrael not counting as one, if he’s even alive still, are Inarius and Imperius. You just cannot have a story involving Lilith without Inarius being involved and we’ve already seen him in the trailer. Imperius because he’s the leader and I’m certain he closed the gates to us.

We know Imperius was to be a baddie eventually in D3. I wouldn’t be surprised if that happens eventually in D4.

96

Yes, whatever happens it would be surprising if Inarius doesn’t show up at some point.

Imperius however, not so soon with the whole “Heaven’s gates closed” thing. Of course we may see him eventually, in an expansion or something, as he is a big part of the universe now.

97

From my Point of view it would be kinda … frustrating.
I could still :nauseated_face: on how they went with Andria …
Till the Expension, I was really hoping they would redeam themself for theyr Azmodan, that Belial, the Lord of Lies itself, would be really her and just waiting to gain the Power of the great Seven …

But NOPE
Just rendering Adria down to a Sidecharakter in the Expension v.v
I mean … wasn´t there any other Mini-Boss they could have put there ?
Why this Iconic Figure ?


You could even argue, that some of the real - old - Nephalem make theyr Appereance, wich where viewed as God´s or Angels themself.

98

But his involvement in closing the gates and letting demons run rampant and gain strength is something he could have prevented. That’s all I was getting at.

99

Obviously Linarian(Rathma) will be around. Not sure how many others are still alive.

100

Given our Juwe Shen, there might be still some others out of the first 2-3 Generations.

101

Agreed, we had demons attempt to conceal themselves through various methods, but even so the corruption that’s caused by their essence usually gives them away. While angels don’t cause corruption, they too possess essence that can affect their areas as well, which makes concealing themselves from their peers a difficult task.

I don’t disagree, however I’d also prefer that they do so without drastically rewriting the existing lore, as that just tends to make a mess of things imo.

If Tyrael either cannot die of old age, and/or wasn’t slain yet; then it’s likely that he’s still alive.

Well it’s always possible for them to bring Adria back, after all, if she truly became a demon, then it’s likely that she’d be able to respawn like one as well. Also there’s still the off chance that Diablo himself would be able to see to her resurrection (that is if he cares enough to do so and/or if he believes Adria to be useful enough to warrant such thing); however she probably wouldn’t become anything more than a sidekick to Diablo considering how much of a fanatic she is towards him.

That’s why I would like to know why Heaven “closed their gates”. It’s one thing if they just didn’t want to get involved with Sanctuary anymore, but it’s another thing for them to let their enemies gain strength and/or corrupt more of humanity.