What sold me on Diablo 4 was the lone wanderer wandering through the desert and dead towns filled with corpses.
What is turning me away from Diablo 4 is literally everything else, from the gameplay to the attributes, to the weapons, skills, items and other systems.
In this thread, I am going to talk about what I like about Diablo 4 so far, what I don’t like, what elements make up a Diablo game, and how the systems within the game must tie into the fundamental elements of a Dark Fantasy Horror game that Diablo is and should be.
We’ll talking about popular media, other games and what Diablo 4 can learn from them and its own predecessors.
So grab a drink, sit tight and in the words of Deckard Cain -
Stay a while and listen…
Table of Contents
1. The Good Stuff
2. Elements of Dark Fantasy Horror
3. Conan, Avengers and Diablo
4. Diablo is Slow… and that’s Perfect
5. What Diablo 4 can Learn from Fighting Games
6. Satan Loves Hitstun
7. A Letter to Joe Shelly
8. You Do Not Understand Attributes
9. Concrete Attributes for all Heroes
10. Str and Dex for Gear, Rest in Vit
11. Why Diablo 2 Weapon Sandbox is Awesome
12. Tangible Weapon Differences
13. Real Limitations vs Arbitrary Limitations in Video-Games
14. Why Diablo 1 Skill System is Awesome
15. Real Interactions vs Vacuous Statistics
16. What Diablo can learn from Breath of the Wild
17. Real Affixes vs Fake Affixes
18. Elegant Design
19. Negative Affixes
20. Runescape and Diablo
21. Important Nitpicks
22. Do we want a Diablo 2 clone?
1. The Good Stuff
I am going to start off this thread praising the Diablo 4 art team on what a beautiful job they have done in creating the Dark Fantasy Horror aesthetics of Diablo 4.
The aesthetics of Diablo 4 are looking great so far. Really good job guys. Keep it up.
Environments
We see realistic environments desolated deserts, murky swamps, wet grasslands, cold caves. You can just feel the death and the bleak vibe. There is great attention to the detail in these places. There is a sense of isolation in the world. That you, the hero, are by yourself. I'll talk more about this death, isolation vibe later on.Weapons
What I am really enjoying is the realistic weapons. Diablo 3 turned away from realism into this cartoony vibe, and while that style was beautifully done in its own right, it just was not Diablo.So in Diablo 4, I am really enjoying realism in the armour and weapons as we see so far.
Connecting weapons to regions is realistic and a step in the right direction. The scimitar weapon model actually looks like a talwar and not a stereotypical scimitar, so that is great to see. (Nitpick - the last bow they showed doesn’t look right. It looks like it is strung on the wrong side. It looks incorrectly strung.)
Using historical weaponry as reference is key to developing Diablo. In a Diablo game, the fantasy elements should be toned down and realism should be emphasized.
I’ll talk more about grounding elements in reality later on.
Other Aesthetics
The horses, the towns, the player, the costumes, the monsters... just wow! The monsters look creepy sometimes, especially those tall bony fallen. What I don't like are the skill effects/animations and the UI, the HUD. More on this later.Camps and Waypoints
The idea of capturing Camps to create waypoints is cool. This way waypoints are earned rather than simply clicked on.Pvp and Ears
Bringing back PvP and Ears as trophies is great. In Overwatch my friends sometimes tell me they played against so and so famous player or owl player or streamer, in some quick play or arcade mode, and they have nothing to show for it, other than the story. So ears allow players to keep a piece of that battle with themselves for as long as they want or for as long as they have inventory space. With the ear trophy system, my friends can show me who they fought with the ear they collected.Elite Affixes
I liked that some of the Elite affixes were making a return from Diablo 3. Many of them were well done and made for interesting gameplay. So it is great to see them in Diablo 4.Cinematics
The cinematics are great. They are slow with dark, religious and horror themes. They are setting the vibe very nicely and drawing me into the game. They remind me of Diablo 1 and 2 cinematics. I love seeing Diablo 4 return to Diablo 1 and 2. It is the classic Diablo experience I have been waiting for.So, when I was watching the trailers, the cinematics set the dark horror vibe, the game looked great aesthetically up until the player started fighting and that took me right out of the experience.
The vibe that was created by the initial aesthetics was completely broken by everything else in the game.
Why was there a strong Diablo vibe in the cinematics and some of the still-shots but not in the gameplay?
2. Elements of Dark Fantasy Horror
The key Elements of Dark Fantasy Horror game like Diablo are -
Impermanence
- death, meaningful death with Consequences
- feeling of real loss
- dire consequences
Sacrifice
- losing something valuable to gain something valuable, at every step
- meaningful limitations at each level
- weakness even in strength
Realistic
- grounded in realism
- rooted in a superstitious reality (not a materialistic/scientific one)
- believable superstitions
- down to earth, earthy
- nitty gritty realistic instead of flashy
Slow-Pace
- tactical, methodical
- greater interaction with the environment
Mystery
- things are unexplained
- opening a door to find out what’s behind it
Horror
- isolation
- fear
- tension that comes from dire consequences
- eerie vibe
- feeling alone and at odds with a hostile environment
Diablo 1 captured all of them!
Diablo 2 maintained most of them (lost the Horror element, became too fast at high levels).
Diablo 3 had none of them.
You will notice that the Diablo 4 aesthetics capture all these elements really well.
But when the game starts playing and we see the player fight the monsters and other aspects of the gameplay, much of these elements are lost.
Why doesn’t Diablo 4 gameplay capture the elements of Dark Fantasy Horror?
3. Conan, Avengers and Diablo
Let’s put Horror aside for a minute… if you asked me to pick a movie that really encapsulates Dark Fantasy, then I really like Conan the Barbarian.
Aesthetically it has inspired the Diablo series, no doubts about that.
Pay attention to the slower-paced, tactical combat of Conan the Barbarian, where Conan also uses the environment as part of the combat. This is really well encapsulated in many of the battles in this movie.
In that last battle, you have horses falling in battle and dying like the men. In Diablo 4, your horse gets hit and it shrugs it off and runs away. This system is not dark fantasy and does not fit into a Diablo game.
Which part of the last battle was epic? The battle was epic as a whole but within the battle, which action that Conan did that was epic? Conan was just doing small things, like running around, swinging at an enemy, swinging at a horse, triggering a trap, picking up weapons to use as his own broke, screaming, etc.
Nowhere in the battle did Conan jump in the sky and bring down with him a rain of arrows that nuclear bombed the entire battlefield.
Contrast Conan the Barbarian with Avengers -
How slowly did the Villain in Conan the Barbarian transform into a snake?
Did he instantly transform into a snake to bite Conan then transform back into a human to cast a spell?
How quickly does Bruce Banner transform in to the Hulk in the Avengers? There’s an alien right behind him, he says “I am always angry”, he turns around, as he is turning he becomes the Hulk and punches him.
Which of these is dark fantasy? Conan or Avengers?
Hulk’s secret is not that he is always angry, his true secret is that he is not in a dark fantasy world. If he was in a dark fantasy world, his transformation would take a while and stay a while.
Did Conan jump in the air and land in a crash on the ground, creating a fissure in the ground underneath him, knocking enemies back?
But did you see that scene in Avengers where the Hulk does that? just destroys everything he jumps on?
Which of these is dark fantasy? Conan or Avengers?
In Avengers, literally every scene is the heroes doing some epic thing. The only time the heroes in these films slow down is if they don’t have super-powers or for certain dialogue like Spider-Man grabbing the metallic arm of Bucky and fan-boying over it.
Everything else in these movies are flashy moves, hurling cars, big explosions…
In Ironman 1, where Ironman fights the terrorists. The fight is him blowing everything up/killing all terrorists at once.
In the Avengers, you are constantly bombarded by “epic moments”.
In Conan and Dark Fantasy Horror like Diablo, it is the small things in combat add up to the fulfilling experience and the feeling of accomplishment.
I mean you are going to have some cool looking spells in the game but overall the game should be slow-paced and rooted in realism.
Skills should feel Impactful but should not be over-the-top and “epic”.
Epic, fast, flashy, over-the-top - as opposed to - small-scale, slow-paced, realistic, down to earth. The latter is Diablo.
You can see how Diablo 4 gameplay is not in the right place if it looks more like Avengers and less like Conan.
If you look back at the Diablo series, Diablo 1 is much more like Conan. Diablo 3 is much more like Avengers.
Diablo 2 is in the middle of D1 and D3.
Currently, Diablo 4 is in the middle of D2 and D3.
Conan/D1 ----- D2 ------ D3/Avengers
D4 is more like Avengers than Conan.
Conan/D1 ----- D2 --D4-- D3/Avengers
Diablo 4 must go back to Diablo 1 to a less flashy, more realistic, more down to earth, more slower-pace, more tactical combat, where the environment is used as part of the battle strategy.
Diablo 1 you had players using doors to funnel monsters and being more strategic about how they approached monsters because they could not escape in an instant. They had to walk and so they had to really use the environment as much as possible. They had to be cautious, there was tension.
Future Diablo games should have built upon that.
In Diablo 4, you see the player just jump into the middle of a pack and zip around from monsters to monster like Spider-Man. Or smash them like the Hulk. Or shapeshift from one form to another like Beastboy from Teen Titans.
This is the wrong approach for a Diablo game.
You talked about certain skills feeling like you were cheating or breaking the game and you said you liked that players of other classes would want to roll a certain class because of their game-breaking skill.
If your skills feel like cheating and game-breaking then they probably are actually breaking your game.
This is because you are making a dark fantasy horror game and if the player feels like he is breaking the game, then he feels superior to the game and this kills the dark horror vibe of the game.
4. Diablo is Slow... and that's Perfect
Modern ARPGs seem like they are all about gliding through the game throwing nuclear bombs on screen.
In Diablo 1, your character walked cautiously exploring the cathedral room by room.
What sold me on Diablo 4, was the lone wanderer riding slowly though a desert or a dead town full of rotting corpses.
The large snake slowly moving through the dark murky swamp. Its scales glistening under the moonlight.
Imagine if suddenly one of those corpses rises up in to a zombie and the lone wanderer fights him and takes him down. He notices that this zombie was a town guard and his helmet, covered in blood, looks useful. The lone wanderer puts on the blood covered helmet and looks around at the wasteland.
These scenes capture the elements of death, sacrifice, grounded in reality and slow-pace, the overall down to earth nature of dark fantasy genre.
This should translate into the combat.
You show things like this in cinematics. The Rogue cinematic showed her having a chat with the priest then tactically taking down a Barbarian.
This set a dark horror vibe, with slow-paced combat.
However the gameplay was completely opposite to that vibe. The gameplay showed what was basically Overwatch’s Tracer in a medieval outfit, zipping around shooting things and sometimes blowing them up or raining Justice from above like Pharah.
Diablo 4 looks like Conan the Barbarian but is not playing like Conan the Barbarian, it is playing more like Avengers.
You know which other ARPGs play like that? Diablo 3 and Path of Exile and many others.
Don’t make Diablo 4 like this…
…Because there is no Horror in this type of gameplay.
Also, do we really want Diablo 4 to be another ARPG in that list?
or
Do we want to we want it to be different and offer something new, something fresh in the modern market?
It was the Horror in its gameplay, that made Diablo 1 unique.
No other ARPG has the Horror element.
5. What Diablo 4 can Learn from Fighting Games
Diablo 1 and 2 were inspired by Fighting Games. There are many elements in Diablo 1 and 2 that are shared by Fighting Games. So I believe Diablo 4 can learn quite a bit from them to design a more engaging game.
For example, there are no cooldowns in Fighting Games, as is the case with Diablo 1 and 2.
In good fighting games like Street Fighter and Super Smash Bros, the player has access to a variety of moves, and can choose to spam any one of them as much as he wants.
You are able to spam one skill but spamming one skill is not the most optimal strategy.
Why is that the case?
The Devs of Fighting Games create Powerful Moves, that vary in their speed, strength, purpose, and multitude of factors.
Basically, different strengths and weaknesses make different moves useful in different situations, and this leads to engaging and exciting play, where the player figures out his personal strategy from the variety of moves he has been given.
It’s more “Play Your Way” than cooldowns can ever offer.
I may talk more about cooldowns in a different thread.
PS - I go in more detail in the “Skills Done Right” section of my newest thread -
In this thread I want to talk about how a Fighting Game mechanic was used to create Horror in previous Diablo games.
Diablo is about an enemy hitting you and you recoiling with the impact of the hit and screaming in agony. Trying to run away so you don’t get surrounded by enemies, who in groups, are much stronger than you are.
Welcome to Hitstun
Hitstun is when your character gets hit and goes into an animation during which you are unable to perform other actions. Everytime you get hit you get stunned.
In Fighting Games such as Street Fighter, this allows characters to perform Combos, by linking several moves and maintaining the Hitstun effect on the enemy hero.
The idea was to beat you up while you were trying to recover from the recoil animation.
The first two Diablo games used this mechanic to great effect to create Tension and Horror, and created a more tactical combat system.
Everytime a monster hit you, you were stunned. If multiple monsters were nearby they could Combo your hero, extending the Hitstun and gave you a nice beating.
When you hit a monster, when your attack stuns them, when the monsters recoil back from the damage your caused, your strikes feel more powerful.
Similarly, when the monster hits you, and you recoil back from the damage, the monsters feel more powerful.
This makes monsters more deadly and frightening.
You would never dream of dashing into the middle of a bunch of enemies in a Diablo game. They would Combo you to death. Regular monsters could surround you and overpower you with numbers.
So you had to walk cautiously up to enemies and had to be careful not to get surrounded. You had to use the environment and position yourself well as to not put yourself in a position where your character could be comboed to death.
You had to respect the monsters…
… even the little ones…
In this way, Hitstun creates tactical combat.
6. Satan Loves Hitstun
Why is Hitstun necessary?
Why can’t the monsters just scare you with Damage?
Hitstun gives monsters an impact on your hero that is more than just a drop in stat sheet HP.
Hitstuns are concrete feelings of helplessness, that make you as a player feel disempowered and the monsters more empowered and frightening.
Damage creates Tension as well.
But you need a lot of Damage to create some Tension. Whereas Hitstuns are micro-stuns where small amounts of Damage can create that Tension.
To illustrate this type of Tension, we can look to Overwatch’s Satan Class known as Mei.
What Mei does is she gets up close, she Freezes you (hitstun) and then she takes you out with an icicle to your forehead.
As Mei freezes you, you feel completely helpless. Your adrenaline starts going up. The Tension is maxed out, and then you are dead.
You see Widowmaker deals a lot of damage and can straight-up one-shot you from far away. She is a Sniper afterall. You can be dead in one snap. But the players do not call her Satan. They call Mei Satan, and it’s because of this feeling of helplessness they feel whenever they fight Mei.
Widowmaker’s high damage does create some tension. It does create respect for her sightlines.
But Mei’s freeze even though it barely does any damage by itself, just amps that tension up because of that feeling of helplessness.
Even high mobility heroes such as Genji or Tracer, fear getting Stunned by the likes of McCree, Roadhog and Mei. When they are stunned they cannot use their mobility to escape, so these highly mobile heroes have to position themselves well against those heroes that pack a stun.
Compare that to our Rogue, in Diablo 4 trailers, who barely gives a F about who she is fighting and where.
It’s not scary to fight a pack of normal monsters when you can just dash out at any time.
This shows the value of Hitstun, as a tool to empower the normal monsters, to make them frightening and to create more strategic gameplay for the player.
Why did Hellknights feel so scary to fight against in Diablo 1?
Why was the Barbarian scared to whirlwind into the middle of a pack of normal monsters in Diablo 2?
Hitstun
7. A Letter to Joe Shelly
In a Q&A with Lord Fluffy, you said 1. that Hitstun did not feel good and 2. it wasn’t clear to the player.
-
Hitstun is not a “feel good” mechanic for the player. Its purpose is to disempower you and force you play more tactically. Anyone coming in from a game without hitstun, who goes into a game with hitstun, is not going to give you positive feedback on it because it is something that debilitates you.
-
Hitstun becomes clear with audio and visual feedback. Hearing your character grunt and recoil, makes it clear that you got hit and are unable to perform any action.
Why do you need Hitstun on every hit?
Why can’t Stuns be limited to Special Attacks by certain monsters?
When every monster in the game can Hitstun, that makes even the weak ones deadly because they can feed into that beatdown. The normal monsters have a chance to stun you so their stronger allies can knock you out.
In previous Diablo games, Hitstun was abundant but it wasn’t done in an unfair way. Monsters who dealt a longer stun, via Special Attacks, would knock your character away so that you don’t die or get stunlocked from that one hit.
In fact you need to knock the player out of combat with longer stuns. Otherwise they’d just get blasted by damage and die in frustrating ways.
You mentioned you tested Hitstun at one point.
What did you test exactly?
Did you make it so that high amounts of damage stunned players in one place? That would not feel good.
Part of the reason why combat in Diablo 3 felt unfair is because longer stuns would be paired up with burst damage or a barrage of damage. Diablo 3 relied on this to make encounters difficult. But this is frustrating difficulty. No amount of tactics can help against a Jailer Elite who just randomly roots you in place and then you get burned, lasered, mortar’ed on top.
Hitstun (ie Micro-Stuns) combined with low damage is much more fair for the player.
Not only is Hitstun a great Fighting Game mechanic, but when employed in an ARPG setting, it enhances combat by increasing tension and fear in the combat, and shifting the combat towards more tactical play.
You can still have your Special Attacks that stun for longer, you can have Special Attacks that Freeze, Root, and so on. When done in a fair way, they will enhance the game.
But the fundamental Hitstun, that is stun on each hit, is necessary.
In Diablo 1 and 2, Hitstun was done well and it made Sanctuary into a scary place.
When you remove it then the player can zip to whatever location they want and don’t have to fear anything. Removing hitstun takes away the horror element of the Diablo series.
The recent trailers show the signs of this problem.
The Rogue dashes in the middle of a big monster pack. The monsters are hitting the Rogue but she is unaffected. She continues to slice them as if nothing is happening to her as she gets hit.
Sure you can make her “flinch” in her animations, but this is not a real impact of the monster’s hit, until you also take away her ability to attack while she is flinching. It has no a real impact unless it has consequences.
Nothing has a real impact unless there are consequences.
If you play Diablo 4 or if you play Diablo 3 (where there is no hitstun), you will quickly see that the monster’s hits on your character, do not feel impactful. You take some damage but you carry on doing whatever you have been doing.
This is a real problem, Joe. So I urge you to reverse your stance on Hitstun, to study Fighting Games and their mechanics and develop an appreciation for them.
Outside of your tests, we have many tests of Hitstun with Diablo 1, 2 and all the Fighting Games that exist out there.
Even the most casually-friendly Fighting Games such as Super Smash Bros have Hitstun.
There is a lot that you guys can learn from Fighting Games.
8. You Do Not Understand Attributes
Diablo 4 Devs, you do not understand Attributes.
Dexterity increases Mana?
Diablo 4 attributes are too Airy Fairy and everything just seems like ‘stat sheets’ without real world meaning. With the exception of attack speed, everything else has no concrete feel to it.
It’s great to see you guys bringing the Attributes back down to the ground from Demonic, Angelic and Ancestral powers back down to the ground, to Strength, Dexterity, Vit… wait…Willpower and Intelligence.
So here’s the thing guys, just using the name strength, dexterity, etc is not enough. These attributes need to be tied into a grounded sense of what Image the word conjures up.
Strength implies that I am getting physically stronger.
Strength
With great strength, comes great weight.
Strength is how much I weight-train, how much weight I can lift. Strength is the bodily strength of my hero.
This is represented in Diablo 2 as the ability to lift heavier equipment - armour and weapons - which is how strength works in the real world. Having more strength allows me to wield heavier weapons. It also increases the damage I can do with a weapon.
Regardless of which type of magic I want to specialize in, Strength always increases my ability to do more damage and wield heavy equipment. It is a solid, concrete stat. 
It has a fixed purpose that is deeply rooted in the real world.
Even if I am a Sorceress, having more strength will allow me to wear heavy armour and use heavy weapons, and actually use them in combat to a certain effectiveness.
This is rooted in realism. No matter how high of an IQ a sorceress has, she cannot wear a breastplate and get high defensive boost, without having some strength in her body. And if she has strength in her body, she can even pick up heavy weapons and use them.
Stength Gameplay -
I am doing more damage. Swinging that axe and killing monsters faster. I can feel the strength. My character wields more powerful axes.
I am able to wear heavier armour, be more armoured and look more armoured as well.
These are tangible things associated with the Strength attribute.
Experientially, investing into strength is investing into more damage and thus this feeling of being more deadly, and investing into heavier armour and heavier weapons for your hero. Due to strength, my character is more armoured and tanky in both looks and playstyle.
The aesthetics and system work together.
Dexterity
Gods never miss, Super Heroes never miss, Humans… they miss all the time.
Dexterity is handling. In Diablo 2, this is how well I am able to handle my weapon and shield.
It increases my Chance to Hit* (more on that later) and it increases my block chance.
Having more dexterity allows me to wield weapons that require more precision, more careful handling like swords and bows.
Regardless of which type of magic I want to specialize in. Dexterity is always going to do this.
It is a solid, concrete stat. It has a fixed purpose that is deeply rooted in the real world.
Even if I am a Sorceress having more dexterity will allow me to use swords, bows and use my shield better, and actually use these in combat to a certain effectiveness.
Gameplay -
I am not missing my swings as often. I am able to hit more. I can wear certain equipment like swords and bows.
I am blocking attacks with my shield more. My shields are better.
Audible sounds indicate the tangibility of this Attribute.
Now whether you like “chance to hit” or not is matter of your opinion. But one thing you cannot deny is that you can feel it.
You can feel it in your self. Your body starts to respond to it.
This is direct gameplay feedback of Dexterity. These hit sounds and the block sounds.
Like in Overwatch when you hit there is a ‘Si’ sound, and when you get a headshot there is a ‘Dink’ sound and when you miss there is no sound.
Dexterity has that feeling, when you miss vs when you hit vs when you block. Even a melee hero will miss and hit.
Experientially, investing in dexterity is investing more into this feeling of hit sounds and block sounds.
Vitality
How healthy am I?
Vitality is my Health.
In the game it increases my stamina and my life. The ability to run for longer and the ability to last longer in combat, be able to suffer more wounds.
It is simple, intuitive and rooted in reality.
Gameplay -
I am lasting longer in combat. I can take more hits. Be more risky.
I have more stamina. I am able to run more (I can dash more, climb more, etc… more on this later).
Investing into vitality is investing into this risk-taking part of me, with some added mobility.
Energy
A man needs to focus in order to accomplish great things.
Energy is my how much I meditate, pray or how I direct my emotions like rage or hatred towards enemies, love towards friends. It increases my spiritual resources - Mana. That might sound airy fairy but fundamentally it is the ability of any man to focus and perform more complex actions.
It allows me to perform better physically as well as mentally.
Mentally - A sorceress meditates a lot will find she is able to focus more on her spellcasting and be able to cast more spells.
Physically - As a Barbarian, I am able to perform more complex melee techniques like Whirlwind and I am able to Concentrate more. The skill is literally called Concentrate.
Gameplay implications -
Having more energy allows me to perform more complex manouvers ie use my skills more often.
It’s weird. I can feel it in my actual body when my virtual, fictional character has more Energy. I am casting the skills more and my moment to moment gameplay has changed due to it.
It makes me feel more resourceful.
Investing into Energy is investing into the visual, auditory and visceral sensations associated casting spells and special manouvers.
9. Concrete Attributes for all Heroes
No matter which class I am, these Attributes are the baseline. They may vary slightly here and there. But fundamentally the Attributes of the game is solid and concrete. They has grit to them. They are tangible. They make sense.
The Attributes are not merely a stat sheet created for gameplay. They have deep roots in actual real world. Each Diablo 2 Attribute is grounded in reality.
Diablo 4 attributes are too airy fairy and have no real world basis. They are created just for gameplay to differentiate classes, and have little tangible effect on gameplay.
Diablo 4 Attributes -
Strength increases defense
Intelligence increases all resist
Willpower improves healing received.
All of the above are basically the same.
Neither Defense nor All Resist have any feeling associated with them nor an behavioural change from the player. You could argue that they are defensive stats so they allow more risk-taking behaviour like Vitatlity does, then why not consolidate them into Vitality?
Dexterity increases Dodge chance
This one stands out because gameplay wise, I can hear when I am hit and when the enemy swings and they miss.
But if there is Dodge Chance is a separate stat then what is the Defense stat exactly?
In Diablo 2, Defense was the enemies Chance to Hit you, essentially the flipside of Dodge Chance.
(Btw why are we getting rid of enemies’ Chance to hit?
Enemies’ Chance to Hit (Defense) is a more superior way of doing Dodge Chance.
Because Enemies’ chance to hit is essentially dodge chance but with the added functionality that it can be fine-tuned up or down for more or less enemy difficulty, on a per enemy basis.)
Diablo 4 stats are not in the right place. You need to think more carefully about them and root them in different tangible things, root them not only in reality but also in different tangible feeling/gameplay that player gets from them.
That should be the same for all classes.
Diablo 4 stats -
As a Barbarian you are investing into Dexterity to get more critical hits and in Willpower to cast more cool spells.
As a Sorceress you are investing into Dexterity to cast more cool spells but you are investing into Willpower to get more critical hits.
Why???
Why are you making stats do completely different things? This is what I mean by Airy fairy. These Attributes do not feel concrete.
Just keep it the same. Ground it into a solid system that is realistic.
So assume you make it so that for every class-
Dexterity to get Critical Hits.
Willpower to cast more spells.
Critical Hits are more damage. Strength is also more damage? So what is the point of Strength?
It is also more damage. They are both more damage.
These Attributes are not well-designed and the way you guys seem to be going at them is from a perspective someone who has no idea what an attribute is and what type of real-world, bodily sensation/feeling it should be connected to.
10. Str and Dex for Gear, Rest in Vit
When Diablo 2 attribute system is brought up many players are quick to point out that all you did was put enough points in Strength and Dexterity for gear and the rest into Vitality with no points in Energy.
This leads to a problem of optimal strategies.
The best defense against an optimal strategy is to make a game like I have been describing above where the game is so engaging that the player just loves to play it for what it is.
But I will briefly address this argument against the Diablo 2’s Attribute system here.
Fundamentally the criticism to Diablo 2’s Attribute system comes from the uselessness of the Energy attribute. All other Attributes have a use but Energy is useless.
Why is Energy useless in Diablo 2?
Energy is useless because Mana potions can be bought and be spammed.
This is true now but when Diablo 2 was launched, Mana potions could not be bought. Mana potions were only available after killing monsters.
This made Energy a mandatory consideration during levelling as opposed to being on your avoid list. You had to consider that in order to cast the most powerful spells in the game, you needed the type of Energy, which could not be bought in the store.
The Diablo 2 attribute system was intuitive and it was not only tied into the grit of this dark fantasy world but also to gameplay. Energy was an attractive Attribute to invest into, within the context of Patch 1.0, where Mana potions could not be bought.
If your resource comes from combat like it does in Diablo 3, then Energy is a nice Attribute to invest into. In fact the Barbarians in Diablo 3 would always that one passive which prevented their Fury from degenerating. This example shows how changing on aspect of a game can influence the other, and how your resource can be an important investment.
In Diablo 4, there are no Mana potions. Players will be relying on combat to generate their Mana. So if Diablo 4 has an attribute system like Diablo 1 and Diablo 2, Energy will be a valuable Attribute to invest into as well.
11. Why Diablo 2 Weapon Sandbox is Awesome
What if we removed the affixes from the weapons. Are they still fun to use? Wait… also remove the skills off your hero. Are the weapons still varied and fun to use?
Does the game feel visceral and gritty and fun and engaging with just a blank character, no stats, no skills, no spells, no nothing, just armed with a weapon or two?
Can you sink several hours in just the weapon sandbox alone?
Are weapons feel fun to use and do they feel different?
Do you feel the urge to try different weapons?
You need to ask yourself these questions.
I have been experimenting in Diablo 2 and I found that -
When each class is stripped of their Skills and are left with only Attributes and Basic (White) Equipment, the gameplay is still solid.
Can the same be said for Diablo 4?
Even as a Sorceress I can pick up a weapon and swing it. The animations, the sound effects and the mechanics, are such that each swing of the staff feels good.
Weapons have various ranges. Spears hit from far away, daggers up close, animations for these weapons are different. Each weapon is used differently.
This is a very nice sandbox to play in.
To able to pick up a weapon and use it no matter which class I am.
Pick up sword/axe - medium range weapon, swing it feels different from Dagger - short range weapon - feels different from spear - long range weapon - feels different from bow projectile or throwing weapon, where there is an actual projectile from the weapon.
Having been stripped of all skills and stats, my character can still do stuff in the game and have a lot of fun with the basic sandbox of melee weapons, bows and crossbos and throwing weapons. Throwing potions too add a ton of fun.
This sandbox is so well designed here.
Diablo 4 does not have this sandbox, nor this grounded foundation on which to build upon. This is why Diablo 4 feels too airy fairy. It feels like we are just building stat sheets and nothing seems to be grounded in reality.
In Diablo 2 if I want to swing a blade on a sorceress I can. I can fire it up and make it burn enemies.
In Diablo 3 nada… no blade swinging sorceress gameplay at all, which is a symptom of a lack of weapon sandbox. All the weapons essentially feel the same not only because we never really use the weapon but because there is no Weapon sandbox to begin with. Skill sandbox is the only sandbox.
Diablo 3 weapons (and now Diablo 4) are like piece of paper, stat sheets, they don’t have any visceral or gameplay feel. It is not fun to use them by themselves stripped of the rolls and affixes, and stripped of the skills associated with them.
To pick up a weapon and swing it. That should be an exciting thing to do in a Diablo game.
The thing that sold David Brevik the creator of Diablo 1 and ARPGs was just that, the feeling of picking up a weapon and swinging it at a skeleton and killing it, in real-time with all the sensory feedback from the game.
This event needs to be the starting basis for Diablo 4, that having been stripped of all Skills, Attributes etc, my character can grab a weapon and start swinging it and have fun with it.
Now the game needs more than just that but let’s start there and actually have this basic foundation first.
Diablo 3 was too airyfairy and in Diablo 4 you guys are trying to ground things back into the dark gritty reality. When it comes to aesthetics you have made progress. But in the gameplay systems, the weapons sandbox, the attributes, etc you are still miles away.
12. Tangible Weapon Differences
You can spend hours just messing around with the weapon sandbox of Diablo 2. It is designed so well.
The Diablo 4 base weapon sandbox does not seem fun at all from what you have shown us.
As a sorceress I should be able to pick up a sword and swing it. That’s what a weapons sandbox is and that sword should viscerally feel very different from daggers and spears, and somewhat different from axes/maces.
These are things that create this deep and visceral weapon sand box of Diablo 2 -
A. Melee/Projectile
A swinging weapon plays very differently from a weapon that is thrown.B. Range
A long range weapon like spear, I can see my character hitting enemies from far away. Allowing me to avoid the attacks of monsters. They have to move in closer to me to attack me, whereas I can poke them from farther away. vs Dagger having to go really close to enemies. To put myself at a greater risk. vs something I can throw across the screen.C. Speed
Dagger is faster, so I put myself at a greater risk but it allows me to hit them more often Spear is slow so I will hit them fewer times.D. Ammunition
Melee weapons require no ammunition. Bows require additional ammunition - arrows. Throwing weapons require the throwing weapon itself.(Durability is also related to ammunition.)
E. Target Count
Single Target vs Multi-target Throwing potion will hit multiple enemies, whereas a throwing axe will hit just one target.F. Block
Does it Block incoming damage? Shields do that. Other weapons do not.All of the above differentiate the weapons into the following categories. These weapons are in different categories because they feel very different from each other.
Short Range - Daggers
Medium Range - Swords/Maces/Axes
Long Range - Spears
Projectile - Throwing Axe/Potion
Ammunition - Bow
Multi-Target - Explosive Potions
Block - Shields
You’ll notice that all weapons are in their distinct category except for Swords and Maces. Cutting weapons vs Blunt trauma weapons.
How do we differentiate these in an ARPG, top down? How do we make cutting and blunt trauma different?
Not just different in looks like how Diablo 3 had Barbarian Cleave - Cut, and Bash - Blunt trauma. It looked very different. But it did not feel tangibly different.
How do we make cutting and blunt trauma feel very viscerally different?
G. Accuracy
Some things require more accuracy than others. A needle needs more accuracy than a shovel. Similarly weapons should have this but accuracy should come from the player.
With projectiles, it is the Player’s aim. But how do we design accuracy for Melee weapons?
Accuracy ties into beautifully into the Strength, Dexterity attributes in Diablo 2 (and in the real world as well).
In the real world, weapons do miss.
You can make more precise swings with Swords (and you need to), (hence they require more Dexterity to use) and hence they feel different. Swords need to be targetted at unprotected, unarmoured sections at the body.
With blunt weapons Maces and mauls, precision is not as required, but force is required to crush the armour and the break the bones underneath it. (Hence they require more Strength to use.)
Axes are somewhere in the middle.
Diablo 2’s system encapsulates this nicely.
The gameplay feel is also very different from Mace and Sword.
Sword you will hit more often, get that ‘Glutch’ hit sound more often but deal less damage.
Maces you will miss more often but when that ‘Glutch’ hit sound comes, oh man you will destroy that monster.
It’s like Overwatch’s Soldier ‘si’ sound vs McCree ‘si’ sound. Soldier’s gun is faster and hits more often (si si si si si si). But McCree’s gun is more damage when it hits.
Short Range/Fast - Daggers
Medium Range Accurate - Swords
Medium Range Hard-Hitting - Maces
Long Range/Slow - Spears
Projectile - Throwing Axe
Multi-Target - Explosive Potions
Ammunition - Bows
Block - Shields
H. Durability
Some weapons will break faster, others won’t. You’ll be using a weapon and it will break and you will have to switch to another or return to town to repair.
These qualities of the weapons are very much rooted in reality and are very down to earth.
In Zelda - Breath of the Wild, your weapon will always eventually break and this causes the player to be on the hunt for new weapons all the time. So durability can have solid gameplay implications.
Imagine your equipment (arms and armours) having an expiry date in Diablo 4. So the player is constantly (not tediously but constantly throughout his career) in search of replacements for his low durability, dying items. Similar to the breaking of weapons of Zelda - Breath of the Wild but more slowly.
Anyways that’s for you (Diablo 4 developers) to decide.
Overall Diablo 2 weapon sandbox is well-thought out weapon sandbox and it shows.
Part of what drew me to Diablo 2, 15 years ago was this weapon sandbox exactly.
Now that I revisit Diablo 2 and think about what drew me in, I realize all the memories that I had messing with the various weapons, and I am doing it now and having fun with it.
It is so much fun to pick up different weapons and swing them throw them, shoot them. They each feel very different, whereas others may be on a gradient.
The gameplay created by the weapon sandbox is so deeply grounded in reality, and as realistic as it can be in an ARPG.
There is always room for improvement. But it is so refreshing to go back to this after playing D3 for years, and just mess around in the weapon sandbox with all these toys.
We haven’t even gotten to the skills yet, and the game is already so engaging.
Furthermore, in Diablo 2 if you take off your weapon you can just punch enemies in the face. Barbarian can even Bash them. On my Amazon, I can do the same as well as Sorceress and any other class.
So why does anyone wear weapons in Diablo? Did the Devs have to force people to wear weapons?
No they made it so that weapons add to your hero.
My Barbarian can use any skill with any ability, except for Double Throw, which requires a throwing weapon (more on this later).
I can Bash people in the face with my Barbarian-sized fists. Just box monsters on the map. I have that option.
But a character will naturally want to use a weapon because the weapon enhances the skill.
Now certain skills also require weapons and that’s ok.
My Amazon’s charged strike requires a thrusting weapon.
It would be better if charged strike could be done without thrusting weapon because there is nothing about a charged strike theme/concept itself that requires a weapon. But charged strike is learned after learning other thrusting skills, so it is part of that thrusting skills group.
The idea of certain skills requiring certain weapons is grounded and rooted in realism.
However even this should not be over done. Many heroes and their skills do not and should not require a specific weapon. Barbarian is an example of such a hero, as is the Druid. Their skills can be used with any weapon. Some heroes require certain weapons like Amazon’s reliance on Spears, Javelins, Bows and Crossbows.
13. Real Limitations vs Arbitrary Limitations in Video-Games
Now Diablo 2 weapon sand box is great. But I would give it an 8 out of 10 .
One problem I had with Diablo 2 weapon sandbox is arbitrary limitations on equipment which character can pick up and use.
My Barbarian can punch people in the face but cannot use a Punching Dagger aka Katar, which can only be used by Assassins. He can use a shield but cannot arbitrarily use shields set aside for Paladins.
Certain skills require certain weapons for no innate reason. Charged strike requires a thrusting weapon, as we discussed previously.
These limitations should have been done away with in Diablo 3. Instead the Devs mostly killed off the weapon sandbox.
Also Diablo 2 didn’t really balance some parts of the weapon sandbox that well e.g. explosive potions are pretty much useless beyond the first few hours of gameplay (I could be wrong though). And that’s where Diablo 4 can come in better balance this system as well as add to it.
You can create throwable weapons that you need to pick up, somewhere between projectile and melee on the gradient. You can make different types of projectiles, etc boomerangs. You can make it possible to throw any weapon like Beath of the Wild. There are so many things you can do with a weapons sandbox.
You can create interactions between weapons and the real world. Cutting weapons are required to slice a rope that is holding up a structure that falls on enemies when the rop is cut. Fire weapons set bushes and grass on fire, etc thereby setting nearby players and monsters on fire including you.
In Zelda - Breath of the Wild, your metal equipment can get struck by lightning, damaging and stunning you.
What if in Diablo 4 the Druid’s Lightning Storm could actually deal self-damage ie His storm skill or an natural storm within the game’s world, hits the metal equipment and has a chance to shock the user.
Then naturally Druid wants to wear fur, leather, woodern shields, wooden staves, in order to not get shocked.
You don’t need to design special looking gear for Druid class ie Druid item sets where his armour is composed of fur and leather just for aesthetics. This is superficial design anyway.
You give the Druid Player an actual reason to wear certain items with how his skills, the environment, his attributes, the items, etc how everything interacts.
You just add fur, leather, metal, woodand bone armour into the game, and the Druid player naturally chooses to wear the fur and leather due to how they interact with his lightning spells, for example.
Then you actually give Druids the option to wear heavy, metallic armour. And they can try to mitigate the effects of their Lightning Storms, by collecting gear with lightning resist to mitigate some of the damage or through other ways.
This is very real interaction between lightning and metal, when coded into the game, creates interesting gameplay in an ARPG setting. And automatically encourages some characters to lean towards certain items.
You never need to aribitrarily limit a characters options.
By putting a “sorceress only” label is not good. That’s where Diablo 2 went wrong and what Diablo 1 had right.
Diablo 4 is actually going in the wrong direction by going even further forward with Diablo 2 arbitrary restrictions through things like different resources for each class.
An item with Fury is useless for Sorceress, whereas an item with Mana is useless for Barbarian.
Both Mana and Fury is Energy needed to cast more advanced skills. So these should not be named different things. It should just be Mana or Fury or Energy and that’s it.
Of course different classes can generate this energy differently but it doesn’t need different names just because of that.
This is just arbitrarily naming things differently so that one character cannot wear the equipment of another.
The differences between classes should come with real interactions in the game world.
14. Why Diablo 1 Skill System is Awesome
Warriors are stronger physically so they would naturaly excel at physical combat - fighting.
Sorcerors are more intelligent so they naturally excel at spiritual combat - spellcasting.
I really like the Diablo 1 skill system here because it honors this. Any class can learn any skills but classes will like some skills more.
Diablo 2 is arbitrary here again. Why cannot a Sorceress learn to Bash and why cannot a Barbarian learn to cast Fireball?
Perhaps due to previous upbringing, genetics, physique, IQ etc they may not be great at it, so the base attributes and qualities of a class can effect their skill choices but the skills should ideally be open to all just as Diablo 1 skills were.
I am speaking from the perspective of grounding things in reality because -
- Dark fantasy worlds are most engaging when they are grounded in reality. That’s the nature of the genre.
- Games which are grounded in reality and engaging to play, are more immersive than games which don’t do that. The latter tend to feel like stat sheets.
- Diablo 1 and 2 were grounded in reality for the most part. I believe that future Diable games should seek to emulate Diablo 1 and 2 and evolve further based on that foundation.
It is true that a game is a game, it is not reality. But by linking the game mechanics to real-world mechanics, it can creates tangibility (groundedness), and can new gameplay or even create a fresh take on popular mechanics.
Players look for the best rolls and try to acquire those stats which give them the most power in ARPGS. However ARPGs have become mere slot machines and stat sheets.
Of course, rolling certain affixes on gear and building your players strength is part of the game. But the game should not all be about that.
The Devs should be mindful of the structure of the game in which these things are done.
After making Diablo 1, the Diablo 1 Devs moved to class-specific skills model for Diablo 2 because they thought it would be useful to new players to have a clear path for skills. Then as the player becomes familiar with the game, they can be introduced to most other skills in the game via high-end items. Which is why in Diablo 2, you can acquire skills of another class with items. It makes sense.
Diablo 3 did away with that concept, and sought to make each class as fixed as possible and in doing so it relied solely on arbitrary limitations. Like renaming Mana to Fury on a Barbarian and making it so that certain classes cannot wear certain gear.
A Wizard can wear a Belt but cannot wear a Barbarian’s Mighty Belt because reasons and can wield a Dagger but not the Witch Doctor’s Ceremonial Dagger because? why? … this is really dumb from the perspective of someone who is trying to immerse themselves in your game.
Even if they work really hard to get into your game, you have locked them out of it through these arbitrary class models.
What if all skills can be unlocked via scrolls and can be further advanced via training (Diablo 1 model).
But a Barbarian is built physically stronger, and a sorceress has more IQ. Physical combat requires Strength and Weapons. Fireballs require more Mana and Spell mastery.
A Barbarian gets more Strength per point invested and a Sorceress gains more Energy per point invested. Similar to how some people will gain more muscle mass faster with the same work-out plan than others. And similar to how some people just excel at maths and other stem fields, having the samae education as others.
So Barbarians naturally want to wield heavier weapons and deal more physical damage. While a Sorceress naturally casts Fireballs because she has more Mana to do so.
But a Barbarian can pick up a scroll of Fireball and learn Fireball to become a fire warrior. A Sorceress can pick up a sword and swing it around, as a battle mage.
Having pures and hybrids like this is really great to see. Having characters branch off into weird builds can be fun as long as it is not forced down your throat… cough legendary items of D3 cough.
Then because players are creating heroes like this. Then in the game you can have NPCs comment on this. Perhaps there are Barbarian NPCs who enjoy seeing Barbarians learn purely combat or some NPCs who like to see Barbarians experiment outside of that, and they comment something unique to you when they talk to your hero.
This whole dynamic creates interesting interactions between the weapons sandbox, skills sandbox, NPCs, environments, monsters, etc. everything interacts with each other and keeps you engaged.
15. Real Interactions vs Vacuous Statistics
A spell lighting the grass on fire, you get burned by it. Naturally you will want to avoid standing in fire. But there is a mystical Unique item which gives you a buff if you stand in your own spell effects. Now the player tries his hardest to mitigate fire damage in order to gain the value of this mystical item.
A cold spell that freezes the ground (and you made your game in away where characters slip on ice). Now ice spells cause you to slip. But wait there are these Ice climber boots that prevent slipping. And then there is that mystical item that buffs you in your own spell effects, with ice climbers you can run/walk freely in ice.
The items interact with the skills and the game’s world. And you can kite monsters or push monsters into these effects. You can lead them in a wooden house and light the house on fire. you can lead them into a slippery ice patch and they slip off the cliff. These type of interactions create an immersive world.
Not that it is necessary to create these interactions, but when they are there, the reason for you to desire certain affixes just naturally happens due to these interactions. That’s when you get real gameplay interactions as opposed to vacuous statistics.
There are things that are happening in the world, and your items have qualities that interact with those things… this creates emergent gameplay.
Recently, you guys talked about Chill effects interacting with each other to Freeze enemies. This is what I am talking about.
This is a real interaction that is grounded in reality, as opposed to being a vacuous statistic.
16. What Diablo can learn from Breath of the Wild
You made it so that certain gear is tied to certain regions of the map.
What if there were certain regions of the map, where the player may want to gear differently just naturally due to the weather.
Diablo 4 is open-world game, it could have cold areas which have freezing winds naturally deal cold damage to players. Which the players can prevent either by standing strategically in cover or staying warm through fire spells or near camp-fires, burning barrels etc, or by wearing cold resist gear.
You’ve already created these properties in the game, so you can use them in multiple ways. The environment have Cold Wind, certain monsters could blow “cold wind” (think Druid’s Arctic Blast), certain bosses could blow cold wind, and other elements that counter cold wind exist such as Cover, Fire, Cold Resist, etc and the player can interact with Cold Wind in any way they choose.
Standing in cover may slow one person down so they may choose to stack the cold resist.
Or
Perhaps she is a fire sorceress and does not care about cold wind becuase she is going to blast through it with heat.
Or
Perhaps I am a lightning storm druid and I am just going to create a storm then go into cover, pop out to create storm then run to another cover.
Or
Perhaps the Fur Coat I wore to not get struck by lightning storms is keeping me warm and protected from cold wind because this Fur Coat has inbuilt cold and lightning resist but reduces my fire resist (more on this later) but later on a fire spell that makes my Fur Coat catch fire and damages me greatly. In trying to prevent my lightning skills from damaging me, I have now become vulnerable to fire and thus have to play more safely around it.
…Interactions, interactions and more interactions.
All these interactions between various elements of the game, naturally create interesting decision making for the player and how they want to approach any given boss, any given environment or encounter.
We’ve not seen anything of this scale in Diablo. The small glimpses of such interactions in previous games come from opening doors, barrels that go on fire when you try to break them or booby traps or where standing in that fire star on the ground damages you (in the Tower of the First Act in Diablo 2). (Another related one is Necromancer using an item to create a Golem)
Diablo 3 sometimes felt like you are a character interacting with monsters on top of a background painting.
The interaction between the environment and the player has largely been lacking in Diablo games and I think Diablo 4 should change that and take inspiration from Zelda - Breath of the Wild.
Zelda - Breath of the Wild is a testament to how good this type of gameplay can be. It is a masterpiece because it links the story, with the geography, with environmental effects, with the weapon sandbox, with the monsters, and so on. Everything links with everything else (puns intended).
Every small element of Zelda - Breath of the Wild interacts with another element.
Such mechanics in an ARPG would be completely new to the market, and Diablo 4 devs have an opportunity to create something like this. Taking the Diablo world and fleshing it out in such a way that feels real, the feels exciting, that feels new and feel engaging, and more important is grounded in the gritty realism of dark fantasy horror genre.
Good games do not need these interactions. For example look at Wind Waker. It’s a Zelda game without all these things I just talked aout. But when Wind Waker became open world, it benefitted a lot from completely embracing the concept of open world and interactions between various elements in the game, and it transformed into Zelda - Breath of the Wild.
I think Diablo going open world needs to embrace that as well. Do away with arbitrary restrictions and actually create open ended systems where things interact with each other and where natural progression is encouraged over stacking “Attack” and “Defense”
17. Real Affixes vs Fake Affixes
This philosophy of natural progression also applies to items.
What is this “Attack” and “Defense” on each item?
What is so engaging about these affixes that they need to be there on each item?
What is it about rings that are increasing your attack in the same way as a weapon is increasing it?
These have to be grounded in something, some grit, some real thing, some superstition, or some solid gameplay. Not just in some “skinner box, cookie clicker, click monsters to get more attack” sort of way, that Diablo 3 did it.
Like Shields are used to block, when you wear it your character will automatically block things and you know they are blocking because every time they do so, they perform an animation and there is sound effects. (This elements make Blocking more real, more visceral for the player.)
So each shield needs a block value to indicate how much it is blocking.
That’s a real affix.
Shields Block (animation, sound effects, damage mitigation) therefore has Chance to Block as an affix.
Affixes for the sake of creating affixes lead to airy fairy stats that have no basis in anything that feel meaningless and baseless.
Airy fairy affix -
x% to Movement speed after killing an elite
This could be an affix on a Unique item. Say a famous bounty hunter died and left behind his helmet. Well he was known for slaying elites. Ok now I get a benfit for killing elites. Great. That would be a real affix, that is grounded in this superstitious reality.
But as a generic affix? It is vacuous. This is just creating an affix for the sake of it.
It’s not immersive. It does not draw me into the world.
Weapons are used to hit things so it makes sense for them to have a range of damage they can do. Range of damage because the whole weapon does not deal the same damage as the ‘tip’ of the weapon. So there is a range because the character is sometimes completely missing an attack (Dexterity) or when they hit, sometimes they hit with the precise tip for maximum damage and sometimes with some other part of the blade that is minimum damage.
So from there we got weapons with -
Min - max damage
Many people will say it’s just a game. It’s not reality.
Sure but each element of the game should express what the game is about. This is dark fantasy game, and this is a genre rooted in realism.
If anything is going to do anything, it better be there for some solid reasons and not just be added just because.
I know it can turn into slippery slope when talking about what is realistic. Somethings are just there because it is a fantasy game that is true. But even in fantasy there is a recognizable gradient from more to less real.
Diablo does not have to be based on a scientific reality. It can be based on a superstitious reality, like people actually believe that certain gems will give them certain benefits. That wearing animal fur gives you more power. These are real superstitious beliefs of our world. These can be used as inspiration for a fantasy world.
A dark fantasy is such a genre that is heavily rooted in this type of superstitious reality.
So it is not just any reality that we are talking about. We are talking about a superstitious reality, where physical things have magical properties.
This is what Diablo was based on.
Devs, you guys seem to have been losing sight of that.
You do not understand that a ring that gives you Faster Cast Speed has a strong fantasy feel. But a ring that has an “Attack” stat does not have a strong fantasy feel.
Much of it is subjective. There is no doubt about that. But there is that objectivity here, which is linking the ring in the game to a superstitious reality in our actual world, and that link is not present in Diablo 4 so far.
18. Elegant Design
What I am trying to push for is a more grounded sense of fantasy, and more elegant design of weapons, items and affixes that is not design for the sake of design. It’s not just affixes for the sake of affixes. It’s affixes that make sense to the player when he draws into his real world experience and other learned knowledge.
I was talking about increased Cold resist and Lightning resist on Fur Coats and reduced Fire Resist.
Affixes have come from real world.
Fur clothing in the real world offers cold resistance, aka insulation. Clothing can catch fire. Clothing is not particularly resistant to lightning, it’s kind of neutral. But think of Metal armour. Realistically, Metal armour is resistant to Fire but much more vulnerable to Lightning.
Thats how affixes must be designed in a dark fantasy world, where they are grounded in reality. They will then automatically have gameplay implications and will have an effect on player decision making and character building, gearing, etc.
This is elegant design - where one design makes sense at many levels.
Fur Coat
+ cold resist
+ lightning resist
- fire resist
+ additional affixes
This makes sense at all the highest level of world building - realism, dark fantasy, as well as gameplay - gearing, affix management, engaging monsters.
Now Fur Coat is a dead animal skin. If this is a wolf fur coat, Perhaps wearing a fur coat makes your wolf buddies think you are one of them so it has +1 summoning. Or perhaps a fur coat inspires the animal within you and so it may have +1 shapeshifting.
A Wolf-faced fur coat in historical setting was worn for warmth but also to inspire that type of animal nature in the wearer.
These are things that designers need to think of when designing items and affixes. They should make sure to root them in some kind of real world.
Now just from the above example, this type of logic can lead to many different styles of affixes.
Fire damage can be damage over time but so can bleed and poison. But grass does not bleed. Grasses and wooden houses can catch fire. Monsters can get diseased and spread it. Poison can weaken, reduce Stamina and thus reduce mobility. Cold can create slippery surfaces. Strength can allow you to lift boulders to open certain areas of a dungeon inaccessible to others without that strength level, or allow you to pick up barrels and cauldrons and toss them across the screen like Conan the Barbarian. Perhaps certain levels of strength can also allow you to toss monsters!
You have to think about how the various elements work in your game, what the rules are and design the interactions according to that.
Then design your game so that affixes interact with the environment (fire damage sets grass on fire deals damage to enemies and players), stregnth (an attrirbute allows for barrel and monster tossing or grabbing and throwing players in Pvp) and so on and so forth.
This is taking Diablo and going one step further. This is not just Diablo 1 or Diablo 2 and definitely not 3, this is Diablo 4, pushing the boundaries of how good diablo games can be.
19. Negative Affixes
Negative affixes are also great because it makes the player sacrifice certain things for others.
Wearing a fur coat with a wooden shield leaves me very vulnerbale to fire while gaining high lightning resistance. So the player then has to manage that in other areas and it naturally creates gameplay and is also intuitive to the player to understand what is happening.
Boots offering fast speed but Heavy Armour slowing you down makes sense, where Strength (and better boots) can mitigate the slow effect of armour.
These type of interactions between Attributes and Specific Affixes can be very interesting to play with.
Giant Chest Plate of Heaviness
+X
+Y
- 15% Movement Speed
+ 15% Movement Speed (requires 150 strength)
It can be a way to encourage the player to get that Strength level unless they are ok with a reduced 15% speed.
When affixes are done in this way, they anot only fit nicely into a dark fantasy world but they are also elegant and engaging. They create tradeoffs and sacrifices, Gains and Losses, Pros and Cons, etc and engage the player to think more deeply about itemization before there is even any hint of complexity (that comes unique items, runewords and the game changing affixes they may obtain later on in the game).
And this type of affix interactions should continue to endgame. There should be no point where the player just straight up stacks a bunch of Resists, for example, and no longer has to worry about any more resists. No, gear should be strong in certain areas and should be weak in others.
The Fur Coat for example. The highest level fur coat should infact be more flammable (ie lowers fire reist even more) than low level fur coat because the player is eventually going to get more strong er + to fire gear. So you always want to create a situation where the player cannot get everything he wants.
He is constantly sacrificing one affix for another throughout the whole game.
20. Runescape and Diablo
Sacrifice
Sacrifice is important to Dark Fantasy Horror game like Diablo.
In Runescape, your hero just levels up, everything is at 1 then you level all your skills to 99.
You acquire armour that never breaks. You can max out all skills.
This is high fantasy.
Diablo is dark fantasy.
Investing into one skill requires sacrificing other skills.
Investing into certain attributes requires sacrificing other attributes.
In Diablo, your equipment breaks.
Durability on armour and weapons exists but has not been a meaningful part of the game in previous Diablo games.
Zelda - Breath of the Wild does durability in a more meaningful way, where the item just breaks and you must find another.
Now Zelda - Breath of the Wild is not a dark fantasy game but its idea of Item Impermanence is a Dark fantasy system. The idea of getting the best items and then losing your best items… that is dark fantasy horror.
Horror
Diablo 1 was scary because there was no running. You had to walk to escape, which increased the stakes of engagements.
How to create horror in gameplay -
Tension, when the player feels tense and when that tense feeling is directed towards e.g. a Monster, this combined with eerie music and dark horror aesthetics, that creates Fear.
Tension comes from Hitstun, and the ability of monsters to always pose a threat to you in groups, regardless of how weak they are.
Tension comes from consequences, when your actions and choices have dire consequences.
In Runescape the wilderness felt dark and scary because you could lose your items and either never get them back or have tough time getting them back.
The wilderness took an otherwise pleasant game and made it into a horror game, where at any moment you could lose something of great value.
That created the tension and made the player fear the wilderness.
Diablo’s world needs to feel like the Wilderness, where the tension comes from the Monsters, the players, sometimes both.
21. Important Nitpicks
These are small things that can add up to massive changes in the vibe of the game.
Horses Do Not Take Damage
Why cannot Horses be damaged? This is not realistic and does not fit the theme of dark fantasy. Dark fantasy embraces the idea of impermanence - dying and death. Let the horses get slaughtered.Flashy Ghost Horse
One of the mounts you guys showed - the Flashy Ghost Horse - looks fake and over the top. Try to keep the aesthetics earthy. That flashy spirit effect on top of the skeleton is unecessary and makes the horse look like it belongs in a high fantasy world. Keep the horse in its skeletal form and put a saddle and reins on it to keep it grounded in a dark fantasy world.Auras on Elites
I am not a fan of Auras on elites. It hides the detail on the monsters. If your worry is that the detail level on the models, are not suited for the increased size of the elites, then reduce their size.Give them other visual indicators of being powerful - they can wield a banner, or have an alternate skin or wear more armour to indicate more HP. Something visually differnt in their model, that indicates their high status amongst the monters.
Dexterity Player
This phrase "dexterity player" sounds troubling. If by "dexterity player" you mean an agile class, quick-footed with clean lethality, then everything is good. But if "by dexterity player" you mean someone who is going to ignore Strength, and other Attributes and invest all points and gear into dexterity then that is very troubling.Flamethrower Spell
The flamethrower beam spell when it moves around so fast it looks fake. Slow it down and bring it back down to earth.UI/ HUD
Minimize the UI elements, keep it simple.Remove all text and allow player to add the text where necessray e.g. the HP and Mana numbers in Diablo 2 are off by default but can be turned on/off by the player.
Btw Diablo 2 has the best UI out of the 4 games, with Diablo 1 being a close second.
In the trailers, when the game as being showed off without he UI, it looked ways better than when there was text all over the screen.
So get rid of the text, and allow the player to add it back in if they wish.
Diablo 4 UI and Font
The Font is too neat and organized to be Dark Fantasy. I understand it is a game and things need to look clean. I would say Diablo 2 looks clean but their fonts (aside form 5-6 numbers) is really gritty looking. Their UI and layouts and their graphics are very gritty looking but still clean.Diablo 2 UI has weight to it, it has visual depth, nice stone texture and satisfying sounds when clicked. One look at the UI and you immediately understand what kind of theme the game is going for.
Diablo 4 on the other hand looks modern and sleek.
Which one is more dark gothic fantasy?
Isolation
What sold me on Diablo 4 was the lone wanderer wandering through the deserts, dungeons and dead towns. But imagine a hundred lone wanders walking through the map with you. It kills the vibe of Diablo.In towns, it is ok to see hundred people because it is a town. But outside of town I want to be mostly on my own.
Diablo is a Horror game, which plays best Solo. I do not wish to see any other player and would rather play isolated.
Don’t get me wrong, I love to play in parties. That was my preferred style of play in Diablo 2 and 3. If the player wants to play as a Party, that should be manually chosen. The default should always be the isolation vibe that the trailers set forth.
I want to be the lone wanderer.
World Bosses
A hundred lone wanderers gathered around a kaiju trying to take it down. It sounds comedic but that's what we are seeing with Diablo 4's world bosses right now. The trailers sets the vibe so well but then completely breaks it and goes against itself everywhere else.If the game has a strong Horror/Isolation vibe overall, then World Bosses are not an issue. But if the game is relying on “epic” experiences of fighting as 100v1 against World Bosses then that worries me.
Keep ‘Horror’ at the Heart of the game, not ‘Epic’.
Diablo 2 Stamina
Stamina doesn't work when you only use it for Run.But Diablo 4 has Run, Jump, Evade, Climb and Jump. Stamina can be a resource for such actions.
Some people hate Diablo 2 stamina but look at what happened with Zelda - Breath of the Wild and how they implemented Stamina in such a cool way.
Do Not Ignore Features of Diablo 1 and 2
There are features in Diablo 1 and 2 that you guys are completely ignoring, whereas other successful games are actually implementing them in a better way than Diablo has done in the part.People think Item Durability is pointless in Diablo but look at how Breath of the Wild makes Durability a core part of its gameplay loop.
Since when did we care about the weapon sandbox in Zelda - Wind Waker? But Zelda - Breath of the Wild has it and it is much more awesome as a result.
Diablo 3 removed the weapon sandbox and paid a price for it. Do not make the same mistakes in Diablo 4.
Item Size
Items in Diablo 4 don't have any weight to them. If you look at items in Diablo 1 and 2, they have a visual weight because some items are larger and other smaller, and they take more or less space in the inventory. This roots them in reality and gives them a concrete feeling. They feel like tangible, weighty items in your bag.22. Do we want a Diablo 2 clone?
When we talk about Diablo 2, then some people think we want Diablo 2. We don't, and now we even already have the remaster for that.The reality is that that we are saying, “Can we at least have the level of quality of Diablo 1/2?”
We are wishing, “Please make Diablo 4 at least as good as the first two because the third certainly fell way short of that.”
We want Diablo 4 to go in the same direction as Diablo 1 and Diablo 2 but be even better but currently Diablo 4 is going in a different direction, which I believe is not the right direction.
The aesthetic of Diablo 4 is in the right direction but the gameplay systems, the skill effects, the attributes, and so on, all the things I talked about above, have been a massive disappointment.
I hope that with this thread, I have shed light on these issues, and I hope that I have inspired you to take a closer look at these systems and caused you to think more carefully about them.
Thank you for reading.
If you are a Blizzard employee and you made it all the way to the end, then I’ll consider myself hired. 
