Testing the new Bowazon synergies and my findings

PTR Feedback
1

I’ve been playing around with some test bowazon builds offline to test out how much better the synergies allow the bowazon to perform.

I’ve tested with the following bowazons so far:

  • Fully decked out “Top-tier” level 99 faith + pride build using fortitude and max dex setup
  • Budget level 79 build using harmony and no high end runewords, most stuff tradeable with pgems. A pretty good representation of a bowazon who has beaten hell and farmed/traded a little bit

See the compared results with my previous tests of the same builds in 2.3 below - results are for players 1 cows and players 8 in single player.

Top-tier bowazon, Players 1

Current patch “2.3”:

  • Multishot: 1,402 to 7,216
  • Guided arrow: 1,986 to 10K
  • Run time: 3m19s

[https://youtu.be/EQKI8_usAyg]

PTR “2.4”:

  • Multishot: 1,426 to 8,012 (11% increase)
  • Guided arrow: 1,961 to 11K (10% increase)
  • Run time: 2m50s (17% faster)

[https://youtu.be/XtiZ_Sr816s]

Both runs above using the same map. Note damage numbers include enchant.

Top-tier bowazon, Players 8

Current patch “2.3”:

  • Multishot: 1,271 to 7,128
  • Guided arrow: 1,811 to 10K
  • Run time: 7m20s

[https://youtu.be/4k4GA1ay6dg]

PTR “2.4”:

  • Multishot: 1,426 to 8,012 (12% increase)
  • Guided arrow: 1,961 to 11K (10% increase)
  • Run time: 6m32s (12% faster)

[https://youtu.be/oLl-Hh80QAY]

Both runs above using the same map. Note damage numbers include enchant.

Budget bowazon, Players 1

Current patch “2.3”:

  • Multishot: 578 to 1,629
  • Guided arrow: 870 to 2,453
  • Run time: 7m23s

[https://youtu.be/0J9hxU8Mx7Y]

PTR “2.4”:

  • Multishot: 839 to 2,367 (45% increase)
  • Guided arrow: 1,178 to 3,325 (36% increase)
  • Run time: 6m16s (18% faster)

[https://youtu.be/HBPHVdyL4yM]

Both runs above using the same map. Note damage numbers include enchant.

My initial concerns, mixed in with my findings:

Power creep for ultra end-game

Even in the very best bowazon setup with loads of off-weapon ED, the damage buff is still 11-12% on multishot.

This is still a meaningful boost that’s not really needed for this level of gearing, bowazons or any build for that matter should still struggle with players 8 play no matter how well they are geared up.

Now for players 8 cow runs, the top-tier bowazon setup clocked in at just under 7 minutes.

With the damage boost, it increases the chance of putting monsters into hit recovery or preventing them dealing damage at all, allowing the merc to get surrounded and still survive reasonably well.

For this build, the net result for doing players 8 runs in 2.3 is in the “small challenge but manageable” category. In 2.4 with the current synergies, this will likely turn those runs into the “somewhat easy” category.

Power creep for hell completion

Basically the same points above, but much more compounded.

Budget bowazons look like they will get a 50% damage boost on multishot now. This is a larger boost than removing the 25% damage penalty.

In the budget bowazon cow run for 2.3, I had to baby sit my merc a lot more to make sure he stays alive. In the 2.4 run, I was a lot more mindless of how my merc was doing and overall it felt far too easy considering the play time required to get to this stage is very short - 40 hours at most starting from scratch.

Stat point risk/reward balance

There are some bowazons that go max dexterity, some that go a mix of dexterity and vitality.

On raw numeric terms in 2.3, each 1 point in vitality netted a larger life boost than 1 point in dexterity granted a damage boost, but in actual game play dexterity is valuable to keep kill speeds up and also make the game more thrilling with a lower life pool.

With the 2.4 changes, the risk/reward balance for vitality vs dexterity is now skewed in favour of putting points into vitality. The value of each point placed in dexterity is now further diminished compared to each point into vitality.

A bowazon that goes 50/50 into dexterity and vitality - who can get away with much sloppier gameplay and still survive - can deal fairly close damage numbers to the bowazon who maxes dexterity.

While both builds get the synergy damage benefits, the reward for going max dexterity for a bowazon is now much steeper and less attractive.

PvP balance

This is something I don’t have a particular interest in, but a number of people have expressed concerns about PvP balance even when the first set of guided arrow changes were introduced.

Now with the +12% damage synergy on top of this, this would very much cement those concerns. Those who have interest in this area can express their concerns in more detail, but I think this is going to put off a lot of people.

So, rather than adding these synergies for bowazons, here are a few suggestions:

  • Buff immolation arrow damage instead of reducing the cast delay. The fire bow skill tree needs buffs more than physical bowazon skills. More details in the post below.
  • Address lack of usage for crossbows for game progression and end-game. Some suggestions:
    • Make crossbows specifically deal more crushing blow damage. Increase the damage from 1/8 to 1/6 for normal monsters, 1/16 to 1/12 for bosses
    • Add auto mods on crossbows for Amazon only: Critical Strike, Penetrate, Pierce, Magic Arrow, Multishot, Guided Arrow, Strafe
    • Increase the base damage of crossbows on a case by case basis.
  • Address guided arrow specifically as this and the ability to deal single target damage is the main weakness for bowazons. Some suggestions:
    • Add a small chance to ignore blocking on guided arrow. For example a 12% chance at level 1 and +2% chance per level thereafter. Make this mechanic PvM only
    • Make its ability to track for targets better again (this was a nerf from some patches ago)
  • Address some general balance issues around itemisation for casters vs melee characters. More details and suggestions in this post:

Thanks for your time and consideration.

5 Likes
2

So budget phys zon now have 45% more damage with multishot? good, that’s exactly what it needed.

I honestly don’t care about 10% increase in super high tier gear damage, as it won’t change anything at all for 99% of players.

but i do agree that Pvp needs to be balanced with the new changes in mind

3 Likes
3

Except that it isn’t needed as explained and shown above.

The main issue with game progression with bowazons are:

  • Getting a good bow at late normal to mid nightmare
  • Attack rating issues going into hell

Both of these things have been addressed with the other changes in this patch via Insight for bows, and the large strafe buff before the synergies.

But it will affect ALL bowazon gear tiers before this. The bar for making players 8 play too easy will be noticeably reduced.

Previously you needed faith, forti/enigma, pride and good max damage adders to manage in players 8, now you probably won’t need half that stuff.

1 Like
4

I understand what you mean, but i think you are overthinking the problem.

All they need to do is allow us to gamble exceptional items in nm and maybe make them available in the shop as well and it would solve the bow issues. Actually, this change alone would help Most physical builds in the game while leveling or starting the ladder.

3 Likes
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Update: Just did a players 8 cow run with the same Faith GMB setup. 6 minutes 54 seconds on the first attempt. Single player, no Atma’s scarab.

These synergies really feel over-powered…

I’m not sure if this only applied to hell or works in nightmare too, but…

From level 29 you can gamble Hunter’s Bow for a chance to roll a Razor Bow, but the chances are very slim at 0.1%. At level 38, that increases to 5.1%. Level 45 to 11%.

So yeah not great, but I think this will be a hard and time consuming thing to balance.

6

I think the changes are fine as-is.

Playing a self-found physical bowazon is an exercise in frustration. It was always my favorite class pre 1.10. After that I stopped even making one until I had a stash full of goodies to twink. It’s not until I find a Buriza, WWS, Lycanders, or Goldstrike Arch that I even think about making a physical bowazon.

Yes, the same can be said for lots of builds. The entire playerbase shouldn’t be require to play the same 3 builds to farm gear for everything else. I’m sick of having to always make a hammerdin, trapsin, or blizzard just so I can eventually play something else.

These changes will help the most when a bowazon hits late nightmare/early hell. Right when they need it the most.

5 Likes
7

Happen to have a Windforce to test with? I think the 2.4 changes will have a greater effect on Windforce than Faith no? Higher Base damage with lower ED.

Think the changes will honestly just promote Vita Zons and Windforce more that dex stack and Faith. Same clear speeds but twice the life.

8

The insight bow addition and particularly for your case the strafe damage and attack rating buffs should be enough for now to address your issues.

Bowazons are in my opinion one of the most balanced builds in the game except that there were some steep progression issues as mentioned above.

Yes Windforce will feel the changes the most, but Faith builds with the right gear still come out on top even though the gap has narrowed now.

That’s sort of my point in one of the points raised above, yes. The risk/reward for going full dex now is steeper.

I probably will still stick with max dex since I’m for the thrills and the game will be indirectly safer now anyway since monsters die quicker or get in hit recovery more often.

UPDATE: Added the 2 players 8 videos which went live 40 minutes ago.

You can see the differences in run times between the 2 videos based on one having the synergy bonuses, one having without.

What’s less obvious is the 2.4 video with the synergies not only was faster, but it felt easier… less effort to keep the merc alive, felt more safe because monsters are in hit recovery more often.

9

I will split my review in PVM and PVP.
PVM
Physical Bowazon has been made cheaper with the multi shot synergy. You can achieve very high damage with Windforce, no need for faith + pride in PVM. Even the end game setup in PVM is a 8fpa Windforce. Bowazons have a choice to invest more into their HP instead of being a fragile dexazon which is a good thing. I tested the endgame zon with multiple setups she isn’t OP in P8 with optimal gear. The required point investment is a good tradeoff. By investing more point to get physical damage, possibilities to make hybrids diminish which is the right balance. Also, to get guided arrow to full power, multi shot has to be maxed. Multi shot’s mana cost skyrockets at lvl 24, not cheap either. So, there is a specialization in the specialization, you have to either choose to max multi and guided to use strafe as your main mob clearance or just max guided and use multi as the attack to go.
Elemental bowazons are still subpar but playable.

PVP:
Multishot + Guided arrow buff together with the fixed d/a/e animation make her overpowered in the sense that she can have the hp of a melee fighter like a paladin while dishing out insane amount of dps from afar. She can even ditch fortitude alltogether and teleport around with enigma while shooting everything with guided arrows/multishots.

10

Alll I see is abysmal p8 clear speed with a bow zons compared to Meta. You actually think sub 7 minutes is reasonable with BIS gear? :rofl:

6 Likes
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Alll I see is abysmal p8 clear speed with a bow zons compared to Meta. You actually think sub 7 minutes is reasonable with BIS gear? :rofl:

Yeah, I was confused, too. Physical bowazons are probably one of the two worst setups to play untwinked (right next to any type of barbarian, though barb’s probably a bit worse). Lower gear level physical characters all needed a massive buff in general.

2 Likes
12

Been a while since I’ve seen an Annihlus listed as “budget” gear :wink:

Anyway, the real question is how this would stack up against other A tier builds. Offhand, the new 2.4 run times don’t seem to eclipse what I see on youtube for comparably equipped builds.

2 Likes
13

I’m not overlooking that about the meta builds. So yes, it is reasonable because no build should be able to clear players 8 content this well.

To say that these builds should exist is to say that Diablo 2 should be made easy enough for a toddler to clear. That’s ridiculous.

I could have self found like 60+ anni’s in single player if I wanted to. It’s not hard. As of 2.4, getting an Anni online won’t be hard either.

1 Like
14

Thank you for this detailled explanation. I agree with you 100%. We want to stop the power creep now.
The changes need to focus on mid game.

I’m currently playing a SSF physical bowzon in 2.3. I just finished nightmare and at this point, I’m doing ok, even using a crapy rare normal bow. I might have some problem in hell, but in 2.4, just because insight will be available in bows, it’s going to be a piece of cake…

1 Like
15

Unless you plan on Nerfing meta builds, there is nothing OP about bow zons :rofl:

2 Likes
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Yes, that’s precisely what the goal should be, and I believe will happen once the devs have a better grasp of the game. That’s why they’re starting small and creating an “inclusive” balance patch to kick things off.

IF the goal were to buff all non-S tier builds to S tier level, the devs would have said that from the outset and we would not be having this discussion.

17

Why does everybody always compares every build to hdin, blizsorc, and javazon?
Yes these builds are OP, does it means all builds need to be as strong as these? What a boring game it would be if all builds would be as strong as the top tier are now. I dont know for you, but I think the game is already too easy. I would like to keep just a bit of challenge. I would prefer if a toddler coudnt clear Ubers with telekinesis.
Is everybody playing competitively? If not, can’t you just play the build you want and ignore the Easy mode (playing hdin, blizsorc, …)

1 Like
18

Yes, I actually got an Ann on PTR within the first hour of this new patch being released. Of course, that proves nothing since that was undoubtly just due to the test settings being arbitrarily low. (For that matter, I logged in with another character 30 min later and got another.) Single player is a bit different than the ladder, and we have no idea what they will set the 2.4 threshold to when the ladder becomes live. I suspect it will be at least as hard as Torch farming (arguably not exactly a budget item either since you won’t have that until you’ve farmed enough wealth to have keys or trade the equivalent).

19

From your stats, I’d suggest you can’t argue the bowazon is “S” tier now. It’s perhaps A with bis gear and B without. Again, test against the power level of those builds before you single out this one.

20

I got 2 torches for free in a giveaway and see plenty more people trading low end torches for mid level runes or pgems. If that’s still a sticking point, then the anni can be replaced with 4x max damage small charms and won’t affect the overall performance of the build anyway.

I’d be more than happy to see other people post up or link to videos of other builds, though I won’t be preparing these personally myself. The philosophy is the same though: no builds should clear through players 8 easily.