I've figured out the whirlwind breakpoints for slow bases

I hero edited some small charms with power of 2 attack speed boosts (1-2-4-8…), then i whirlwinded on monsters a bunch, recorded the audio (luckily i can turn off all the audio in the game except combat sounds) and analysed the intervals between hit sounds.

Not sure how to apply this technique for 2-handed weapons because it doesn’t look like they apply. I have no idea how the new whirlwind works for 2-handed weapons.

Here are attack speed breakpoints in 2.4.3 and 2.4 or before, for bases of 20, 10 and 0 base speed

Base at v2.4.3 :point_right: 20 10 0 v2.4 :point_right: 20 10 0
:point_down:Frames per attack
14 0
13
12 3 0
11 0
10 4 0 16 6 0
9 13 2 0
8 26 13 2 26 16 6
7 46 29 15
6 83 58 39 47 37 27
5 174 125 89
4 79 69 59

First off, it’s clear that on the high end there’s a hard cap of 5 Frames. So a nerf to the power level ceiling of 25%.

Second, there is indeed a big boost without attack speed to “slow weapons”. 20-10-0 bases started before to this at 14-12-10, now they do at 11-10-9. Not so much of a boost to 0 bases, but together with the new increased ED% i think it will make whirlwinding at level 30 doable. You also don’t have to find a weapon with IAS anymore, you can use those Death’s or Sigon’s Glove+Belt combo to skip a lot of early breakpoints! Overall, I think this is a great boost to a playthrough version of a single-weapon whrilwind barbarian.

Let’s look at practical end game applications now.

IK set (weapon speed 10)

Before the change, you started at 6 frames per attack, and could down to 4 (50% DPS increase) with 2 Shael runes or IAS jewels strictly in the maul.

Now, you also start at 6 frames (40 IAS from the maul and 25 from the gloves). However to get to 5 Frames, you need to obtain 60 more IAS. If I were to socket the maul with 2 Shael runes, I would still need 20 more IAS. That’s either 2 jewels in the helmet\armor, or a Highlord’s Wrath or a Cat’s Eye amulet. So you get worse results than before and you are limited with gear choice.

It still can be obtained without socketing the maul, if you want (for example, you could put an Um + Lo\Ber\Eth in the maul) - then you need to socket the helmet and the armor with 3 IAS Jewels and you have to use Highlord’s Wrath or Cat’s Eye Amulet.

In essence this gives you an ability to have open wounds on the IK barb while being 20% faster than before (5 frames vs 6). My desire was to do ubers on IK barb (open wounds is mandatory for mephisto and lillith that cannot be poisoned), but i don’t feel like I’d be able to take down mephisto with this setup anyway, because I won’t have free sockets in my helmet or armor for Lo runes (to increase the lightning resist). Wearing 2 wisps projectors would probably help… but honestly with this many sacrifices I’d prefer the old 6 frame attack speed (wisps is crazy rare and doesn’t give attack rating)

BotD

My favorite BotD base was Ghost Spear. I just like spears, what can I say. Whirlwinding with a spear looks odd though… spear would get stuck in the enemies. Still looks cool, I’ll suspend my disbelief. On top of that if you make BotD Ghost Spear you could use it on most amount of characters - barb, druid, merc and amazon.

Prior to this just the 60 IAS on the BotD Ghost Spear would let you have max speed of whirlwinding, i.e. 4 frames per attack.

Now you have to have 81, and with the unfortunate 81 IAS breakpoint for 0 speed base means you’ll need to wear 2 IAS pieces to max the attack speed. Cannot just do away with a highlords, have to have a goldwrap, for example. You could ofcourse just wear m’avina’s helmet or treachery, but those item slots are way too valuable for that.

What about BotD war pike? well… it’s in the dumpster. Nobody’s getting 174 IAS. You’re doomed to spin at 6 FPA, which you could do before without any extra IAS gear, and now you’ll need 2 pieces for +23 more on top of the BotD.

Conclusion

New whirlwind still needs a lot of analysis, like how dual wielding works, and what’s gonna happen with faster weapons, and need to actually try the playthrough version.

But on the 2-handed end-game side of things, on the IK side of things… looks like a moderate nerf to me.

My IK barb (2xShael in the maul, angelic rings+amulet) on HC Ladder is still playable though. I can just unsocket those Shael runes from the maul now, cuz they aren’t doing anything at all (65->105 isn’t a breakpoint).

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I made tests during my break by counting hitchecks with highlord’s lightning on shenk’s mob. There are several interesting combos I put together in single player for testing. Sadly, my timer wasn’t captured so you can’t see the clear times:

Skilling: lvl99 barb
20points into sword, axe and polearm mastery
20points into ww

First impression:

  1. It seems like IAS table for normal attack is being used for WW fpa breakpoints. Where usually 10fpa attack is located in normal attack table you get your 4fpa attack with WW. For weapons like War Pike and Thundermaul for example, it’s impossible to reach 10fpa normal attack. Two handers with 0 speed were nerved hard (194ias needed) for GPA and Ghost Spear.
  2. Good news is I noticed odd BPs for WW. At where 11fpa normal attack is located you get 5fpa WW. Yes, an odd number 5fpa attack but still much better than a 6fpa attack with a heavy hitter. Edeath Champion axe is a really good 2handed WW weapon now if you can reach 11fpa normal attack speed for 5fpa WW.
  3. Dual Wield was buffed hard which means 2x edeath ettin axes hit really hard and can reach last WW bp.
  4. Primary hand does seem to accelerate offhand but I am not sure because I didn’t have time for extensive testing. I’d like you guys to try out grief pb + edeath colossus sword combo with 55ias in total (grief ias + offhand ias) and tell me whether you get the appropriate hitchecks with 0 ias on edeath CS.
  5. Holy freeze and being frozen affects WW hitchecks by a lot! A holy freeze council member is life threatening in hc now.

All of this just some raw testing, nothing is sure so I wouldn’t say my finding are set in stone.
The other interesting point.
a balrogblade has got different normal attack frames compared to gpa which are both base 0 speed weapons. In the case of an oath blarogblade, you can reach 4fpa with just 138 total ias. To do the same for a GPA, you’d need 194ias. That’s ridiculios. IK set is hot potato garbage tier then.
I used this calculator to determine ias needed for different breakpoints:
https://planetdiablo.eu/diablo2/calcs/speedcalc/speedcalc_english.php

You can reach 4fpa with 194ias.

good test overall is hard too be 110% accurate , i will say is a minimun of 25% nerf , because he are agree ww need more ias gear ,mean you are stuck using ias gear compare ed% gear , also mean you stuck with a isa build so your character suck . because you can not make mf build of pvp build ect, or you will lost ias mean dps .

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with what base?

with 0 base this is how 194 FPA sounds like: https://i.imgur.com/mQit5st.png

that’s 5 FPA

im afriad you are right , i can not hit the target 4 time with 2 hand anymore . compare 1 hand np , this feel like diablo 3 ww , add faster run your ww will travel faster ,anyway im just so discorage the dev are just clueless

With old WW, short whirls could get you decent attack speed even with a pike. New WW has a shorter delay between attacks, but with the loss of the 2 free hit checks, it’s actually slower in practice.

So for all of the botd players, as long as you have a 2h weapon that is “0 base” for attack speed, you just need highlords and laying of hands and you’ll hit the 4 frame bp, very doable. Mostly will be ghost spear and greater poleaxe.

you’re not hitting 4 BP, 5 is max

Using a ghost spear or greater poleaxe? Thought I read in your post that you need 81 ias to reach the 4 frame breakpoint. Is 4 unattainable now completely? And it’s actually 5 you reach?

Using botd gs or gpa?? Can you edit your post? Post Says you hit 4.

why you think blizzard hide the new formula :slight_smile:

The answer is in the table at the very beginning of the post

Can 1h reach 4 frames? Or are they capped at 5 also?

lmao yea big expert you look funny now dont look too sure

yes you reach 4 frame with 1 hand :rofl: :rofl: :joy: :joy: :rofl: :rofl: :joy: :joy:

I never said I was an expert, learn to English. Yes it’s 5 instead of 4, I said 40ias instead of 41ias. Testing is testing. Don’t be so butthurt over a post Charley boy.

Where did you extract it from?

Additional tests, fanatism works in WW now. I checked whether you could do huge damage by getting free hits using a BOTD Thundermaul with very short wws with 125ias in total. Then I let an act1 faith merc accelerate Ebotd with a level 15 fana aura:

It seems like the first two hits at frame 4 and 9 are free, independent from weapon speed. With faith merc my longer WWs became better but I didn’t clear much faster than before.

On a side note, WW sin is back with a bang:

She is viable now.

This is disingenuous. You are actually 25% slower (5 frames vs 4 frames). You only needed an additional 30 IAS in IK maul to reach 4 frames. This means you would use two ed/ias jewels to max WW damage or go 2 ias jewels or shael runes if you couldn’t afford some ed/ias to reach max frame.

You are actually picking up Bleed at a cost of 25% DPS (not counting the weapon damage loss from ED/IAS jewels) .

The other issue is that IK lacks survival to run Ubers. The set barely gives you max resistance with just a single point in natural resistance (8 with BC and +skills from IK set). You are effectively at uncapped resistance of 98 fire, 70 cold, 101 lightning, and 80 poison. The DR on the set is only 20% and the armor defense is barely equivalent to a 117% ED on a sacred armor.

Wisp is rare but is exponentially cheaper than a Um + Lo/Ber. In fact you can get 2x 35% ed/15 IAS jewels + a Wisp for less than either a Lo or Ber…

i`m not butt hurt i just smile of you , you come too other topic too discredit them showing you know the answer ,and after showing you dont have a clue of what you talking ,and looking for answer

Beast is garbage. The weapon damage can’t even come close to BOTD or Grief.

Going with A1 Faith merc over A2 might merc with Pride is also a major damage loss.

Where exactly are the gains?

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Dude, why are you attacking me? WTF is your problem? I am testing setups with the new change. I am not the one making those changes. Did I say those changes are good or should be kept?
Learn English and some manners first. Go to feedback forum and cry to blizzard employees. I AM NOT ONE OF THEM.
I won’t answer to you ever again.

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