You are not meant to max the skill. It has an abundance of synergies so it can fit into any elemental build. However, I am fine with an ar or ias boost.
Source?..
Trying to spin 80 points of synergies as a positive lol
It has an abundence of synergies to waste all your skill points on a very mediocre skill thatās even weaker if you donāt get the synergies.
My fix for Vengeance is simpleā¦let it hit up to 5 targets as you level it up (same as Zeal). Boom, done, voila. This way you get a physical focused Zeal with more damage and attack rating, vs an elemental focused āZealā that may hit less and do less physical damage, but makes up for it if you synergize with whatever elements you want.
I know, Iām a genius.
Lolā¦ your idea for making vengeance competitive with zeal isā¦ making it Zeal lol
Nah
Iād rather have Unique mechanic skills rather than copy paste with different colours
Also, itās fundamental to remove the āextra physical damage as elementalā and replace it with āincreased elemental damageā
Such change empowers a whole new branch of weapons rather than the same for every melee builds
Yep, I go for mixed, max resist light if Iām using dreams. ~10 salvation. rest mixed into fire and cold
for pvp I usually donāt go salvation at all. People see the dreams and get their light resist gear on. and i kill them with fire and cold and physical 
If you donāt understand, that is your problem at this point. Iāve already gave an example, go ahead and cover your eyes. Itās literally the same concept as dual element sorcs, they donāt master all synergies either.
Lol, yeah, Zeal with less attack rating and far less physical damage, especially once Sac synergy is taken into account, let alone needing far more skill points to get the most out ofā¦so yeah, uh, just like zeal, or something 
You donāt understand why a subpar, extremely weak melee skill shouldnāt take 20 skill points + 80 for synergies + another 20 for the right aura? Are you joking?
It requires way too many skill points in the synergies, itās not comparable to a ranged sorceress which does a lot more damage, is ranged, has teleport, etc
If whirlwind required 100 points of synergies just to get the damage it has now, youād be right there defending it; arguing against change just for the sake of it
Iād rather Vengeance be unique in what it does. It would nice if it also increased all elemental damage you did on melee hits so that you could use Glimmershred throwing axe and elemental damage charms to min-max your damage instead of using Grief and all the usual stuff.
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Vengeance isnāt as bad as some people are acting. Itās one of the few melee skills where Grief is a bad choice, which is maybe why people think itās unimpressive. However, I do agree that itās synergy requirements are overly burdensome.
At the very least, I would like to see one of the synergy bonus done away with and merged into Vengeance. Salvation is the only one that makes sense to me. That both makes the skill itself stronger for people who want to use it just as a secondary attack, and frees up points if its a main-attack.
Itās a largely useless build for PVE especially hardcore.
Yep
Thatās the spirit of the proposed changes
Make it unique in its mechanics and itemization
I hit 99 yesterday and after playing a Hammerdin for a gazillion years I respeced to a vengeance paladin, to take advantage of having every skill point available. It feels like it has the potential to be good but its just not worth the skill point investment. No AOE, single target damage isnt that good either. Ultimately I think rn the only time it is more or less worth it is for a Dream Paladin or Dragon/Hoj but even then zeal might be better.
Vengeance is imho the skill that really shows how bad the synergy system is
It really stretches it to a point it magnifies itās flaws and cracks
Synergy system didnāt bring anything positive to the game, it only served as a skill point wasting system
Which it was about skill effects rather than power
It could convert all damage sources to elemental and this would make items like azurewrath and djinn slayer very desireable.
The problem with that would be, Items like those arent balanced for it. There will be one that will be strongest by far. Iām thinking gimmershred, You get that and thats it. nothing beats it so azurewrath and djinnslayer wont be desirable. Also there wont be room for crazy rare find like eth rare fools swiftness wep as they would hold no value.
and since small charms can go up 2-99 lightning dmg. There is no way to balance this. Unless they change all items that have elemental dmg.
Need I reminds you that grief existsā¦ any counter argument talking about weapon balance is therefor irrelevant lol
true.
I do hope they nerf grief but thats a whole another topic.
What I mean is blizzard is currently just tweaking skills.
Have they reworked a skill fully in d2r? I mean this would be too big of a change. that will require too much balancing in my opinion.
Grief does not work with vengance. 2-99 light damage scs are super rare maybe the rarest ele dmg sc.
yes grief doesnāt work with vengeance, he meant its OP (unbalanced) for every other melee skill.
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