Zovaal teams up with Murozond?

“Norazdormu warns us of Murozond, his double old god corrupted version of himself who stops at nothing to END REALITY by UNMAKING the timelines.”

Didn’t Zovaal open his portal and tell his minion, Anduin, to come along to witness reality’s end? Is there going to be a dragon’s isle patch (9.2)? and sepulcher (9.3)?


While I don’t see a team up, it’s possible that Zovaal’s actions could cause that cascade effect to make Nozdormu snap and become Murozond to prevent whatever victory he foresaw Zovaal having. That or simply foreseeing an all out cosmos war between the powers occurring in the fall out from the Jailer’s side, and the Void getting to him in that moment of war to help set the deck on their favor.

After all the Hour of Twilight would stop Sylvanas from being able to do anything with her deal with the Jailer since she’s off the board as a maddened echo. Plus Zovaal can’t claim the soul of Azeroth if the void gets to it first, and since the machine of Death is will running smoothly at that point all those souls are going to their appropriate place, instead of the Maw.

Murozond disappears in Cataclysm… it’s a bit hard to grasp, but the End time dungeon is a self resolving classical paradox, it turned itself into an alternate reality by happening and the event which causes it according to the end of the dungeon also resolves it (us coming in contact with Nozdormu and him taking us to the End time).

"Nozdormu says: At last it has come to pass. The moment of my demise. The loop is closed. My future self will cause no more harm.

Nozdormu says: Still, in time, I will… fall to madness. And you, heroes… will vanquish me. The cycle will repeat. So it goes.

Nozdormu says: What matters is that Azeroth did not fall; that we survived to fight another day.

Nozdormu turns away from where Murozond died and looks up at the Hourglass of Time.

Nozdormu says: All that matters… is this moment."

Rick and Morty, Marvel, DC, Doctor Who etc have all done something similar where the events undo themselves before they even begin or even in some of them the end actions are what started the loop.


The problem with this theory is it assumes that Blizzard Writers actually know who Murozond is.


If it were not for these forums, I would have forgotten that the Dragon Isle’s was suppose to be a thing.

There’s no real connection between any dragons and Zovaal. And Murozond is dead now. The Jailer isn’t looking to unmake timelines or delete reality, he wants to essentially get the power to chain the universe and other cosmic orders to his rule of domination.

It’d also be a complete waste of the Dragon Isles to use them in SL, and a totally weird left field too because we’re not even on Azeroth right now. The Sepulcher is 9.2, we know that’s where he’s headed and the Primus is making a key so we can follow him there.

Yes and no. Nozdormu is still alive and he will become Murozond. We don’t know if Murozond tried to do any time altering stuff between his transformation into an infinite dragon and the first time we saw the infinite dragonflight “chronologically” (aka Old Hillsbrad Foothills). I mean their second attempt at ensuring the Hour of Twilight (to our knowledge) was to stop Medivh from opening the dark portal. That event predates Thralls escape from Durnholde Keep, yet the infinites interference happens after their attempted interference with Thralls escape.

But when it comes to time travel, I shall quote a guy who had to run around a sewer (multiple times) without a pair of pants.

“The more you think about it, the more it hurts the head”.

They wasted Nazjatar and Ny’alotha in BFA. The only thing we see of Nazjatar is what exactly? Coral forests, a small section of Zin’Azshari, a few naga buildings and Azsharas’ “Palace”. Meanwhile Ny’alotha ended up being 3 buildings, Il’gynoths rectum and N’zoth.


There’s also the question of whether that death truly happened at all, since technically by occurring at the End Time, it was part of a false timeline - i.e. a timeline that didn’t actually happen. Meaning everything in the End Time - Deathwing’s death atop Wyrmrest, the deaths of the faction leaders whose “echoes” we fought there, the failure to prevent the Hour of Twilight - were all false events that didn’t truly occur, and remained so by virtue of us stopping Murozond’s effort to force that future into permanence. Yet our defeat of him taking place then and there made the fight itself part of that averted future, meaning the very act of “undoing” the End Time could have simultaneously undone the need to undo it in the first place. In effect closing off the loop of events by way of the same act that prevented it occurring sequentially also removing the localized agency that was actively preserving it. No End Time means no such future existing at all for Murozond to attempt to force any more, meaning no Murozond making that attempt any more, and therefore no Murozond present in that nonexistent future for us to kill, possibly resulting in Murozond himself being temporally elsewhere (and “elsewhen”) instead.

Moreover since they could traverse the timeways, it remains possible that any given Infinite Dragon (and really any Bronze Dragon as well) could still persist as their past self removed from their respective defeats within other moments in time.

And in a similar vein, for all the evidence that the Bronze Dragons lost much of their power over time at the end of Cataclysm, it’s never been properly justified why we couldn’t still run into a past instance of Aspect Nozdormu or fully empowered Chromie visiting the true timeline in the modern day.

The order in which the Infinites attempted to alter events in CoT dungeons is also uncertain. Players encounter them in a certain order, but really that’s only tied to the order in which the Bronzes detected the alterations. It doesn’t necessarily have any bearing on the order in which the Infinites chose to attack those particular events, or for that matter, the particular chronological points of origin from which each respective incursion was launched.

For all we know, every attempt could have been planned and initiated concurrently with the intent of overwhelming the Bronzes’ efforts to fix them with a bunch of disruptions taking place “simultaneously” across the timeways, so to speak, rather than any of the intrusions having occurred as follow-ups to a prior attempt’s failure.


I do wonder why there are hourglass symbols in Oribos. The way time works in the Shadowlands is different but there isn’t any time-based magic there. Symbols of time and Fatescribes being able to see/affect everyone’s fates feels like Void shenanigans and even if it’s not it feels out of place. I feel like it’s hinting to some sort of involvement there. Or it’s Blizzard’s Rule Of Cool not taking into account such implications.


:sob: :sob: :sob:

I believe Murozond was outside of time (the lore description he has implies this). Meaning that his death is something that is always going to happen. Even Nozdormu states this.

The “hourglass” and Father time have a limited association with death and mortality, so much so that Father Time is sometimes depicted holding Death’s scythe. Fate, death… same thing; all mortal things are doomed to die.

There are hints of this in Battle for Azeroth. Zul’s apprentice (the guy we kill in the temple in the Zandalar campaign quest) says “Shadows twist the strings of fate.” There seems to some kind of fate manipulation at play and since N’Zoth’s whispers were able to successfully predict what was to come. It seems like the Old Gods have the biggest connections to Fate.

The Fatescribe dialogue is another hint “Gods fall at the turn of a key.” maybe hints that Zorvaal was using the Fatescribes to possibly assist with the heroes defeating N’Zoth by releasing him. No concrete evidence at this point but only interesting coincidence and speculation.

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While my speculation is still we are going to use the Dragon Isle to go back in time and create an AU Azeroth…

… I think the main thing so far that separated Zovaal and the Infinite Dragon Flight was that the Infinite Dragon flight go back in time to change things in their favor.

They go back and influence events which already took place.

Zovaal doesn’t want to go back in time per say, but rather hit the reset button.

For example, Zovaal’s not trying to go back and change who got Frostmourne in hopes of increasing his chance to succeed.

Also, while the timeline could change now… Murozond was corrupted by the Old Gods, as seen in the CUiling of Stratholme instance. They wanted to stop Arthas from purging the city and prevent his decent into madness…

In a sense, you can see this as them trying to stop the Jailer. :slight_smile:

# N’zoth did nothing wrong.


See, that’s a problem. Nothing is truly outside Time. Not even Nozdormu. If he were, then he couldn’t be fated to anything, including his own death. Because having a fate is itself a function of Time. For something to happen to him that’s fated to happen, it would have to occur within the constraints of events as determined by the flow of Time. That being the case, said event becomes subject to whether or not it occurred as part of a false timeline or the true one. And the End Time Moruzond was artificially stabilizing was a false timeline that ceased to be when we halted his effort to keep it viable.

Something to remember is that technically the Infinite Dragonflight’s efforts in CoT weren’t really meant to produce alternate historical outcomes that would better serve the Old Gods in and of themselves. By the way Time works in WoW, such potentialities were fundamentally doomed by virtue of being false events that were divergent from the true timeline.

They were trying to impose such false events - irrespective of the specifics of those events - upon the true timeline not because those events’ resolutions were better for them, but because doing so would compromise the integrity of true events and destabilize the proper flow of Time, threatening the fabric of reality.

It was a matter of the universe needing a stable paradigm of true events to function, and the Infinite Dragonflight creating threats to that stability in order to sew chaos that would distract the Bronze Dragonflight and thereby weaken one more safeguard the titans had placed on the Old Gods’ confinement. The consequences of them succeeding wouldn’t have been Azeroth’s history being replace by a different one; it would have been causality falling apart and the ordered flow of Time collapsing from the forced introduction of false possibilities in place of the true actualities.

Though the Infinite dragons seemed legitimately invested in their efforts actually upending everything and unraveling fate, it’s uncertain if they were fully aware of the Old Gods’ real, less immediate reasons for wanting the timeline threatened. While they served the Old Gods’ schemes with their attacks, Murozond and the Infinites were never outright portrayed as taking orders from them, so they may have just been let loose in their corrupted state to act upon their own agenda to dismantle the proper order of events, with their efforts - even in failure - suiting the broader goals of the Old Gods.


I thought it was more so like Alternate Universe Draenor.

The Old Gods see thousands of possibilities, and they influenced (encouraged?) the Infinite Dragonflight to alter key points in history that would have the most prominent outcome, resulting in their success. (Corruption of Azeroth or a Titan)

This wouldn’t undo the fabric of reality, but more so create an Alternate Universe where Azeroth got corrupted and we finally had a Void Titan within reality.

This Void Titan could then swap between Alternate Universes, much like we did, (Mag’har do?) and corrupt everything.

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Aman’thul is Father Time, he’s not associated with Death

Well… if he is “Father Time” than in mythology, he should be because every single major figure in real-world mythology associated with Time is also associated with Death.

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I think the opposite. Zovaal’s remaking of reality may be a part of the “true End Time” Murozond mentioned. In the “Three Sisters” comic, the Void whispers to Alleria about Sylvanas serving the “true enemy.” The Void Lords may know about the plots of Zovaal and the Nathrezim. We may have another war between cosmic forces.

  1. Argus is the Death titan
  2. We know Blizzard’s adaptations of real life mythology aren’t always accurate, and they don’t have to be