Yrel and “Lightbound” Deep Dive; Not 100% Right. Not 100% Wrong

Lore Story Forum
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After some discussion and reconsidering, this is my stance on the whole Yrel and AU Army of the Light. Note; they’re not officially called “Lightbound” in the lore, that’s what the Mag’har call them according to Geya’rah, I’ll use that name for ease of classification. While the Lightbound are more right than wrong, there are a couple of big issues. I think there’s a lot of directions their story could go, but a one-dimensional “fanaticism/dogmatism” arc would be poor writing and wasteful.

What the “Lightbound” get right;

  • Legitimate grievances with savagery and the Orcs: They have good reason to call the Mag’har savage due to their experience with the Iron Horde, plus the non-Iron Horde tribe the Laughing Skulls were violent xenophobes and Gul’dan’s now-extinct tribe was vicious (except for the shaman). There’s Mag’har who still skin people in the beginnging of the Mag’har recruitment scenario. The other cultures are quite warlike and aggressive from the Gorian Empire to the Botani. The united Mag’har are less advanced than the Draenei but not primitive – around the Industrial Revolution. Wanting to make Draenor safe and unified is a good thing.
  • Their higher power: Unlike most religious disputes irl, the existence and abilities of the higher powers aren’t in question (in-universe) for either party. Following the Light is as viable as the elements, and it clearly has power.
  • Teamwork and lack of cruelty: Yrel and the “Lightbound” don’t have backstabbing and sadism, the former something even the Mag’har aren’t free of.
  • Leaving some culture alone: Yrel’s group clearly aren’t trying to wipe out the Orcs as a race, and the only change they pushing for is following the Light. They’re not taking away the Mag’har language, their architecture nor customs besides their shamanism (given Auchindon, the “Lightbound” might even give leeway for the Orcs ancestor worship).
  • Permitting Arcane: Since people can use Arcane and Light, as Lightforged Draenei can become mages, it’s possible the “Lightbound” still permit arcane and would get along with arcane beings such as Aluneth or the Titans.

What the “Lightbound” get wrong

  • Join or die: The big one, and the one that makes certain fans ignore everyhing the “Lightbound” get right, due to the violation of free-will by conversion under duress (claims of brainwashing currently unproven). In light (pun not intended) of the point below, followers of the Light can’t make the “my way is the only” claim so can’t make. The Light canonically isn’t solely responsible for the creation of the universe, so doesn’t have exclusive ownership… though it’s not clear cut since the Light is the first cosmic power (maybe until we learn more about the First Ones).

  • Forced Culture Change: Depending on what’s being changed and why. This point is under protest but a point conceded, because the Mag’har are likely being forced to give up their shaman abilities. But not being forced to give up much else, so this point is iffy.

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I can’t tell if serious or troll. Ugh, fine I’ll bite.

You just posted a list of “here’s all the positives!” from a group that has “join or die” on their resume.

When we left Yrel after WoD, the Orcs and Draenei lived together in peace. This was after the defeat of the Garrosh-led Iron Horde and the expulsion of the Legion (led by… you know… an evil Draenei). Over the next few decades, more naaru came, and under the leadership of the Light Mother (and following her will) they began forcibly converting the Orcs to the Light or killing them if they resisted.

If we’re going down this rabbit hole, there’s really no end in sight.

The Burning Legion was founded to fight back the Void. Yes, they wanted to scour all life from the universe, but they wanted to do it so the Void would lose and maybe uncorrupted life would come into existence. Humans, Gnomes, Dwarves, all afflicted by the curse of flesh by the Old Gods. They converted folks to join their ranks (unwillingly often, but still) and those folks may have respawned in the Twisting Nether when they died, so even death was merely a setback. All we had to do was join them or die.

Heck, the Void tried to recruit us as well, offering us the power to beat back the ever-increasing powers of “Death.” And you know what, they even warned us about a lot of future problems we faced. Come to think of it, they saved Azshara and her people from dying (yeah they became weird snake/fish horrors, but they lived). All we needed to do was join them (or, you know, die) and they’d help us fight against other powers.

Death even wanted us on their side. Even when Death killed us for not joining, we got resurrected (as undead abominations, but still). Death is probably the nicest of the groups out there. They gave us the choice of “join us or die and be resurrected and join us.” Pretty generous if you ask me. And we could get a front row seat for remaking the cruel universe that included demons and void abominations.

Algalon on the other hand murdered trillions because they didn’t put up a good fight to stop him. Do not trust the Titans. It wasn’t even join us or die, it was defeat us or die. They’re awful.

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you lost me at Orcs are “savage” and that’s “a legitimate grievance” for genocide… NE’s are considered “savage” too…

Where do we draw the line?

also “savagery” has very colonialist undertones, which again would paint the Lightbound as evil, or at the very least xenophobic themselves. Is savagery a legitimate grievance? I dunno about that.

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Unlike the “Lightbound”, the Legion want to destroy the universe, are a major environmental hazard and are full of sadism and backstabbing.

The account of events form the Mag’har scenario is full of holes, chief among them no one mentions the Iron Horde and former Iron Horde leader and war criminal AU Grom is now leader of the Mag’har. Can you explain the leaps in logic between those events?

Death is the nicest by offering the choice of “serve us in life or serve us in undeath”? Really?

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Um. Yes they did. It was called the Kaldorei Empire. It was led by Azshara. And they were a world threatening racial supremacist empire that nearly destroyed Azeroth by summoning Sargeras.

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Uh, that’s not genocide.

If you want to go down that rabbit hole, the Iron Horde has racial supremacist (even post Iron Horde Mag’har have their cycle of revenge with the Ogres), imperialist (“We will never be slaves. But we will be conquerors!” AU Grom) and anti-migrant overtones (their treatment of the Draenei)

The AU Draenei are only on Draenor because they’re fleeing presecution of the Legion and their vessel crash-landed, then the locals formed a group to enslave or kill these Draenei refugees…

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How is “convert or die” not a form of genocide? It doesn’t matter what the Iron Horde did; you shouldn’t be comparing to them as a baseline for whether or not what the lightbound doing is bad on its own.

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How is converting to another religion genocide? By force, yes, but that’s not a genocide.

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It’s a cultural genocide. And it becomes the classic version as well when you append “or die” as the victims’ alternative.

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As a note, this is the number one reason I want to see the Lightbound return. I want to see how they not only react to other demonations of Light practice, but also (especially) how they react to Elune Worship. Because as you said, NEs are also portrayed as “savage”, and Unity under a single faith and vision of the Light should take issue with NE cultural practices too. Its gonna be fun.

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Apart from their connection to the elements what are they losing? Not their art, not their language, not their history, not their architecture… they might even be able to keep their ancestor worship if Auchindon is any indication.

Compare this to an actual cultural genocide in WoW - the Mogu’s treatment of the Pandaren under Thunder King Lei Shen. The two situations are very different.

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I think the fact that you even have to add “Apart from their connection to the elements” is proof enough that you know. And you’re still comparing one genocide to another. Sure, one might look relatively “better” at a glance but that doesn’t make it good, and shouldn’t be an excuse.

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You are making bold assumptions that a crusade of Unity under a single vision of the Light will happily allow for the diversity of language, culture, art, literature, and lifestyle that would naturally work to change and divide that vision. Because “facets that comprise culture” aren’t quite as self-contained as you seem to think. Things tend to bleed into on another. And if “Unity” and “Order” are the goals (as that sermon specifically states) … then why would they allow for so many opportunities for disunity and disorder to manifest from even the Light Worshipping Draenor Indigenous?

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We have a lot of real world examples how the expansion of Christianity and it’s many crusades damaged native culture and committed mass genocide. Take residential schools as a most recent and a prime example. Millions of children died, due to abuse or neglect, is that not comparable to a genocide?

Religious indoctrination and opression isn’t historically a fun and friendly process.

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While I think Christians should not have been involved in or supported residential schools (I never have), citation needed on the “Millions of dead children” figure.

You know the most famous crusades began as a belated defensive response to unprovoked Muslim aggression against Christians at the time (look up Byzantine-Seljuk wars, the Sultan Alp Arslan and the history of Jerusalem)… then again, belated response to unprovoked aggression sounds similar to the Draenei and the Mag’har.

The Crusades ended centuries ago, and everyone involved has been long dead for centuries… get over it. And if you think that’s only limited to Christianity or religious people, you need to do more research (ie; the Ottoman Empire, Soviet Russia).

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Just “get over” humanity’s own long history of violence? No, reflection on the past helps us grow as humans. Progress is worth looking back at what historically we did wrong.

You are right I fact checked myself 2,800 kids died in residential schools but millions have died worldwide due to religious oppression.

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There’s a difference between reflecting on history to learn form mistakes and deliberately refusing to move on from history by using historical grievances involving long dead people as fodder to justify prejudice.

On that note, religious wars make up a small fraction of wars in human history (a number that drops even further if you don’t count examples involving Islam).

There are Mag’har still alive who are part of the Iron Horde and they’ve rallied behind AU Grom who has lots to answer for; was AU Grom imprisoned for his crimes leading the Iron Horde? He clearly wasn’t executed for them.

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I’m saying that you trying to find the positives within a group that subscribes to the “join or die” mantra is akin to listing positives within those other groups. I’m not suggesting the Burning Legion, Void, or Scourge are good guys. I’m pointing out that, yes, you might be able to pick a few qualities out of them (i.e. the Void points out many future issues we will face and offers to help us fight them) but they still have “join or die” as their recruiting poster. Regardless of any positives, “join or die” is a pretty big evil.

You may have an issue with Grommash leading the Mag’har, but again, the Draenei worked with the Orcs (who had been misled by a time-traveling mustache twirling villain) to fight off the Burning Legion (capped off by a giant evil Draenei). Then they live in peace. Both sides have reasons to understand the influences that played a role in the threat to Draenor and both sides eventually rallied together and formed a peaceful existence. That’s not much of a leap in logic and it is canon.

The “join or die” mantra likewise doesn’t seem to be much of a logical leap for the Lightbound. We see in Legion where a prime naaru decides that Illidan needs to lose his free will and become what the Light wants him to be to fight back the Burning Legion. That’s the Light. They’re fanatical. They tossed aside Alleria when she wasn’t following their script.

Trying to advocate for “join or die” is akin to advocating for the Jailer saying “join or be made to serve.” Actually, join or be made to serve is a bit nicer. Dying is … you know … dying. At least Anduin may (likely will) be broken out of his service at some point.

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Thank you for explaining what you meant.

We don’t see Orc and Draenei forming that understanding in the game or the lore; your idea of how it happened - albeit well-formed - is just a theory and doesn’t account for the fact that the Orcs chose to do these atrocities or the Draenei who lost homes and/or loved ones (including Yrel herself).

I’m getting tired of debunking the fan theory that “Lightforging = brainwashing/takes away free will”. Xe’ra was trying to swap Illidan’s Fel powers for the Light, not make him her mind-controlled drone. Turalyon was Lightforged and disagreed with Xe’ra in person when she was alive, ergo, Lightforging isn’t brainwashing.

As for Alleria, she was on the Army of the Light’s ship, so their rules stand. Alleria said to Xe’ra she wouldn’t use the Void… then did so; while it can be said Xe’ra’s response was disproportionate, Xe’ra had every right to be angry at Alleria for lying to her/breaking a promise while on Xe’ra’s own turf aboard the Xenedar.

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Correct. My theory of “why” peace occurred in Draenor is no more than rationalizing it. It’s based mostly off of the fact that Yrel and Grommash do work together and Velen (though from a different universe) does express understanding for how the Orcs were tricked by the Legion.

With that said, while I understand that I’m rationalizing how it occurs (and I would say pretty fairly but reasonable folks can disagree), it does occur.

As to brain-washing, I’m not sure if that’s addressed to me or not. I don’t believe they brain-wash folks, but their followers (and especially the Naaru leaders) do routinely exhibit a fanatical approach. The actions against Illidan fit that pattern. Turalyon is free to act of his own volition, he isn’t mind controlled, but his first action following Illidan’s rejection was to bring his weapon to bear against Illidan (who grabbed it with one hand).