For those who don’t know its a new addon that gives you a M+ score kind of like Raider .IO. It seems ok but there are a couple of issues I have with it.
All interrupts are counted so if you are saving interrupts for priority casts in a pug you are going to score very low. As its 1/3 of your score as a dps I think this is going to cause players to waste interrupts on any cast they can use it on as soon as its off CD in order to score better but this is by far worse play. I haven’t checked but I don’t know if it also counts attempted interrupts as this to would punish pugs far more than it would premade groups if it doesn’t.
The weighted dps values used are lower for lower dungeon levels, so if you need to boost your score you can run a +8 and massively inflate your score. The problem here is over the course of the season this is going to inflate the average and mean values of those dungeons and cause players that are supposed to be running +8’s to be undervaled.
Doesn’t count uses of pots as wowlogs removes them from the overall damage. This is one of those things I guess I kind of feel should be given a bonus or something as I’d rather take someone using pots over someone who doesn’t if they have similar scores.
There is no score for utility. Whether this is things like poison dispel, stuns, vortex etc. I know logs can pull uses but than just counting uses is going to cause the same artificial inflation problem that interrupts have. I don’t think there is any way to determine if utility is used well but this is one of the things that make +10’s easier and becomes mandatory in higher keys.
The website tracks depleted/timed/left keys but it doesn’t show that information in game. But as it relies on logs this might be to prevent people from dropping keys and deleting the log to pad their stats.
For a first go of it I do like it quite a bit but it definitely needs some issues ironed out. I hope the authors keep up with it.
I don’t know much about it yet, but it sounds interesting if we need more metrics. I hope it does an adequate job with tracking boss and trash encounters accurately to prevent padding stats when things are the least critical.
So far I don’t think it does that. From what I can tell it aggregates a mean value of the key level for your spec and than ranks you based on your damage done to that mean.
So the more people that pad the less your numbers will look good. Thats probably another issue worth bringing up.
I’m all for it. If I’m pugging, the more information I can get on my potential group the better, even if that information needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
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It’s just getting started. I don’t use it but it may become the new standard and if it does I’ll get it.
I’d hate for the addon to encourage bad behavior like aoe stopping casts that are ok to go off just to have stun DR prevent me from stopping a deadly channel.
But stops and interrupts needs to be reworked so maybe if it gets really bad things will change.
Wait and see is where I am now.
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If it relies solely on Logs, then it’s useless. Almost no one logs M+ runs especially in the low to mid key levels. Even in high keys they are rarely logged. This requires that people upload logs for every run for it to be accurate. The reason RIO works is because it pulls directly from Blizzard’s API and logs every run that Blizzard captures.
Definitely can’t go wrong here. BIG /s. People who don’t know what they don’t know rating other players?
“Successful Route Planning”? Lol.
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My thought is it just makes me feel good about my decision to never engage in any of the gameplay that relies on these kind of things.
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i’ll support this statement.
first, M+ isn’t logged that frequently from what I can tell.
I had more than 1500 m+ runs in DF. I doubt if more than a few dozen were logged by someone. I don’t log runs myself.
Secondly, and this is the key for this project, no one is going to submit their failed keys. it makes them look bad, too, even if they weren’t “at fault”.
the system is a premise that will disprove itself or people will only submit logs where they looked really good.
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I’ve run hundreds of keys this season and I think people uploaded like 10 logs total?
Lol. 100%
Cherry picked to the max.
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Imagine if Blizzard adopts this into the game like they did Raider IO. 
The audience its made for is very specific for the 8-12 range. I’m pretty sure it doesn’t score any runs below that. As far as the log issue yeah its a bit of an issue at the moment (3 of 19 groups listed don’t have a score currently) but if it gains traction the people who want to use it can or would start logging their runs.
As far as the rest I can see those being goals but I don’t know how well they are currently achieving those. Routes for sure is not counted anywhere but I’m sure its going to check the pulls against standard pug pulls. In the 8-12 range in pugs there typically isn’t to many. Hell we often see people complain that all you have to do as a tank is press W. Although it could just be talking about not over pulling and killing your team. I guess we’ll have to see how that shapes up.
Its got issues but at least some of them are pretty easy to work around.
This isn’t true and their own website breaks it down into three categories. Starting at 8-12.
This wont stop players from cherry picking which logs to upload to skew their stats. This entire operation is flawed from the foundation.
Yeah I see it extends to 15 now, swore it was only +12 when I looked last week. So 8-15. Low keys though still are not scored.
There are a couple of things that can prevent this.
First if it gains traction even if you delete the key someone else in your party may be logging it.
Second even if you delete keys to try to get the best possible score you still need to play to that best score. Sure some people might be able to do 100 mechanics, dps and interrupts and now have that perfect score and than try to never log another run but that is not the vast majority of players. The other problem here is that you have no idea when a pug is going to be logging and so will still need to play to a consistent level or the second key you run is going to tank your perfect average if you don’t score another 100%.
I think the real value this is going to have is going to be dependent on how many players are going to pick this up and start logging their keys. As to how many that will be I can’t say but it does seem to be quite a few people at the moment (720K unique characters although many of these people probably have no idea the addon exists yet because it only has 93K downloads.)
There’s just too many variables for something like this to be accurate.
- Requires logs. Yes someone else can post it, but still not guaranteed.
- People will do “parse runs” to jack up their score.
- How does it track interrupts through stops? Details doesn’t track those and I don’t believe logs do either (could be wrong).
- Then you have the score for “route planning”. What does this even mean? Do tanks who make their own non-meta route get knocked?
- Giving healers score based on HPS is also bad because this means bad groups will get higher score than groups that actually do the mechanics.
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I think the authors know it’s not going to be 100% accurate, and it doesn’t need to be. It’s a secondary score that adds more information than raiderIO alone. An approximate average or mean DPS is still better than no data. If you find a category inaccurate or useless, you can press Shift to view individual scores and make your own judgment. Even if people game the system, it’s just additional data. How much weight you give it depends on your own experience.
There are potential issues, which is why I’m posting this, to share ideas and see if others think the same. Still, it’s better to have the system than not, and feedback should help improve it.
As far as healers I have no idea how they will do that (and yes it would be very difficult to model.) I can see that being far more of an issue than the other two roles. The easiest way I could see is a ratio of hps to over healing. However this would still have a ton of issues, I’m interested in seeing how they attempt to solve it.
Edit: Hmm if I can find where I can give feedback I might also suggest allowing the players to weight individual scores with a slider in the addons main menu options. This would allow you to give more weight to things you care about while ignoring values you don’t think are weighted properly without having to do it in your head.
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If Wowop becomes the new raider-io standard, I’ll look more into it. Right now I don’t like how interrupts are tracked because seems like if you aren’t doing X interrupts per pack you will look like you aren’t interrupting enough, so people will just interrupt non prio casts.
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The new payers to WoW don’t use a kick tracker, don’t know what skull target means, don’t single target the dangerous mob so they can pad, and don’t let the tank lead.
You think WOWOPio is going to “improve” the player-based problems with m+? Honest question.
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It pulls data from WarcraftLogs. Just FYI.
It only takes 1 person in the group to log it for all 5 people to get a score, so the logging issue isnt as much of an issue as you think it is. Currently, its set up so that you can only see the detailed scores of people you have played with, rather than the score that shows in game. I’m also going to point out that while cherry picking the logs will be a real thing, it wont work as well as you might think it will. With this system, you can be in an absolutely terrible key that goes 15 mins over time, but still have an exceptional individual performance where you failed no mechanics, and out up 90th percentile scores in all the categories, so you’ll still upload it. However, in a run like that, the odds that the other 4 people performed that way are basically zero, so their bad peformances are going to show up. I can tell you from experience with this, is that its more common than you think.
I’m also going to tell you that this addon, or one performing a similar function is coming. Everyone I know who runs keys, has almost instantly started using it. The ability to weed out people who fail mechanics frequently is huge. One person linked it in out guild discord, and there is now 20 people in the guild who have downloaded it and are busy uploading everything they run. Also, it only counts your most recent 15 runs, so there’s no long term consequences when you’re first learning dungeons in a new tier or just coming back to the game.
