You just couldn't resist it, could you Blizzard? Torghast was too good to be true, so you had to add a timer

I know you’ve said you don’t agree with this, so forgive me this hypothetical rhetorical question.

But what is the point of pre-emptively trying to correct, manage, or change behavior that may or may not exist on live for content that is absolutely not tuned at all in any way and is not reflective of how challenging it will or will not be on live?

I feel like Blizzard are not being forthcoming about why they are adding Torments and the “stop to wait on cooldowns” is just a red herring. If they don’t want people to spend a lot of time each week in Torghast then they should just say that and tell everyone that the original plan for Torghast to be infinitely repeatable content is no longer true. Instead they have decided to make it another daily or weekly you can finish in 30 minutes and move on with your day.

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Prove and show ample amounts of evidence people will be taking upwards of 3 to 4 hours on Thorgast runs or go away.

I, personally, would spend a lot of time in Torghast, if the following things were true: Torghast is fun and everything else is boring.

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I spent a bit over two hours in there today on alpha across two runs, totaling 33 floors, going from 1-15 and 1-18. First run ended when I got a broker floor where the vendor was surrounded by traps and I couldn’t interact with him without dying, then the Tarragrue spawned and that was that. Second run I finished easily.

I tried another run starting at floor 19, and I spent about 20 minutes trying to clear just the first floor because my initial anima powers were garbage. At 18 floors per clear, 20 minutes per floor is 6 hours.

It would be much faster with a 5 man and a tank/heal/3dps comp, where everybody can specialize their anima powers to their role, but 3-4 hours is far from outside the realm of possibility, especially if you are talking about runs starting at floor 31 or something.

Yes I would too, but I wouldn’t be waiting half an hour for each difficult trash pack for bloodlust. That’s just pure nonsense.

If I’m spending 4 hours playing a mode, I would spend it playing the mode, not AFKing most of my run. That’s just absurd logic.

Who wouldn’t tire of that kind of crap after a few attempts?

Yes, but that was you playing thorgast. I’m talking about people literally AFKing for 4-5 hours waiting on bloodlust on each pull for an extra floor.

Not a single sane person would utilise their playtime like that.

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Right, that’s exactly what people said about spam MoS in Legion too.

I question the sanity of the people that did it, but there were definitely people doing it.

People are crazy and do weird stuff in this game for any perceived edge.

There was a guy in a PC bang in China (maybe South Korea? it’s been a while and I’m fuzzy on the details) who died playing WoW because he never got up to eat or sleep or anything for multiple days in a row.

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So one guy in China justifies ruining exploration for an entire mode for millions of people. I can see you would be well suited for a job at Blizzard development.

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First, I think timers and torments are a bad idea that detract from Torghast in a big way and make it less fun. I’ve stated as much dozens of times across a handful of threads today. All of my comments based on my own testing, not just on conjecture and outrage from secondhand reports, watching streams, or reading interview transcripts.

Second, I don’t want an exploration mode at all. I want one mode, and I want that mode to be exploration friendly.

Third, I have made a number of suggestions as to how this problem can be fixed without anything resembling a timer, like keeping the mandatory weekly capped progression at lower floors that can be done quickly and leaving the higher floor rewards for more basic gear, cosmetics, and prestige; spawning a treasure goblin or similar at the end of the floor with a 15 minute despawn timer to provide an incentive to go fast, rather than a disincentive to go slow; and a few others I can’t remember right now because it’s 4am here.

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Except, you know, Bellular Gaming actually stated that he was seeing folks doing that. So, you know, clearly you haven’t been paying that much attention.

This just helps show how it could be a very small portion of the player base, and NOT the steamers or content makers. There are those going into Alpha to test and see what ways will be the best to get what they want. That means if some find the waiting for every CD to be the best way to go, they will do that.

Ideally, you should not have to have big CDs for every pull, but even if you don’t, there will be those that do it anyway because for them it is not about challenge, it is about maximizing reward while pushing risk to 0.

It could come down to: “hmm, scary looking pack ahead, better have my CDs up so I can smash through it fast” cs “hmm, pack looks bad but I am moderately geared and skilled, I’ll try it without the CD”. I’d be one laughing if the one who waited for the CD got creamed but the one who did not breezed through it. Big CDs should be used to enhance play to help over rough spots, not serve as a substitute for gear and/or skill.

If modern WoW has taught folks anything, it’s that they will do whatever the best players do in order to get the ‘best possible results’ when taking a crack at certain content. Look at talents for example. Icy-veins creates guides for optimal talents, which are written by top-tier players. They do their parses and their other checks and balances and then they say X talent is better than Y or Z.

What happens then? Almost every player picks talent X. Not because talent X is fun or it’s something that clicks for them, but because this guide or this streamer says it’s the best of the three.

So if it becomes common knowledge that the ‘best way forward’ in Torghast is to wait for CDs after every pack and to come with an insane amount of drums if you don’t have a shaman or a mage with you. Then that’s what players will do, because they will follow the leaders who say it’s the best thing to do.

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Timer is there because esports.

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EXACTLY THIS!

This is why most Roguelike games do stuff like that, create optional areas that have small challenges, be it endurance, speed, whatever that reward a player for choosing to put themselves in a tougher situation off the beaten path.

In one of the other threads on this topic I commented on a few of my favorite Roguelike games and mention how none of them have timers in the general game but a few have special events/optional events that can be timed and reward you for doing something quickly, precisely, or even surviving for a certain amount of time.

To give on example here, in the Roguelike platformer game “20XX” there are challenge rooms that if you successfully clear them within their parameters you get rewarded with a bonus piece of loot. These rooms come in many different types ranging from “Avoid getting hit” “Race the clock” and “Obstacle Courses”. Beating these OPTIONAL rooms grant you an extra piece of loot for overcoming the challenge and nothing if failed. They are entirely optional side challenges for those willing to take the risk to attempt them.

Obviously WoW was not built as a Roguelike and it has its own obstacles to tackle but I can not agree with the Blizzard proposed changes. They can say that its not a negative aspect, that its not a timer, but if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and feels like a duck then its a duck.

I really, strongly, disagree with the idea they are pushing forward and really think that they should look to other Roguelike games for inspiration on these things. As I said before, just as Garrisons were Blizzards version of “Player Housing” and fell flat I really do not want to see Torghast suffer that same fate as Torghast by their ideas of giving a Roguelike the “Blizzard Touch”. Torghast is a refreshing breath of fresh air in the game and has the potential to be amazing but I worry that Blizzard is far too cautious for their own good with this idea of falling back on what they know.

The primary portion of Torghast should have an imposed “timer” mechanic on it, no matter how its packaged and masked and pitched as something else. There are ways to create content inside the tower that could use a timer to incentivize challenging yourself like with other rogue games.

Right now, in the Tower, there are several segments of “dead end” rooms that reward you for making it through traps or enemies you do not have to go through. I think that those could easily be repurposed into challenge wings. Put a door that can be opened there and upon interacting with it pop up a dialogue box that informs the player “By opening this door you will begin a challenge event, do you wish to proceed?” and if the player chooses to they can and if they successfully make it through the event they are rewarded and if they don’t they are not.

Creating an optional challenge incentivizes you to try and push yourself in small bursts without making the entire run feel punishing.

I am not saying that every side passage or wing should be that way but they could add features like that. Trap rooms you need to navigate quickly, combat rooms/gauntlets you need to survive/make it through, heck they could even re-purpose the Mechagon Dungeon sneaking section to create a room you need to sneak through to the end without getting caught.

There is so much potential that could go into making this tower absolutely amazing on top of how fun and fresh it already is.

I really hope that Blizzard honestly reconsiders their decision here and considers other paths with Torghast and how to handle it.

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How would you be climbing and sitting in the same spot for a hour?

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Its subterfuge by those who want to discredit that Torghast is just a dungeon, when everything is said and done.

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I personally don’t enjoy timers. Maybe they will change their minds thinking it is a necessity. I do believe they should get more people in there to test. They also shouldn’t completely dismiss those that do not have access to the content. I understand the ones doing the content would have more insight. Still you can’t completely discredit opinions…I don’t want them to go down that path again.

I already mentioned long ago I would’ve went a different way with Torghast. Which would encourage more interaction with other players. Maybe if I had it my way a little too much… the bigger the group the more fun/craziness. (Which a lot of people might not like.) Still I feel like should encourage normal size groups more than solo.

It doesn’t feel like they care much for promoting group activities, More like for competitiveness and ego. I think Torghast has potential to do both. The ability to cater to both audiences. If they do it right… now is a timer that much of a hindrance? I am not sure. I see a lot complaining about it already, but I haven’t played it myself. All I know is I would like to actual enjoy the content and not feel rushed… maybe add a type of item that enables a timer? You would also need to give a better reward for people wanting to play this way.

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From what I understand, if it’s a single-player capable activity, then what’s the actual harm if someone chooses to take hours to do it? They’re just slowing themselves down by doing so, but at least they’re having fun.

Going back and playing Halo games on heroic and legendary recently reminded what I like in a challenging game - the ability to strategize, to try again if you fail, and not feeling pressured into doing any one thing. The goal isn’t to succeed before something happens, but merely to succeed in itself, leading a different kind of design where the encounters themselves discourage being aggressive, and encourage being precise, calm, and careful.

Even without timers, these games are still very hard on these higher difficulties, and still make one feel accomplished for getting through them even if takes them hours.

Timers, even if generous, often make games feel like there’s only one correct way of doing them, and that is the most efficient/quickest way, all driven by a fear of not meeting the timer. It’s just the very nature of time trials in video games - there’s nothing wrong with time trials, I still very much like mythic plus, but there are more ways to make things difficult and engaging than to slap a time limit on it.

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It doesn’t have a timer, it just gets harder the longer you take. You can still take your time, it’ll just be more difficult than someone who slams it.

Except for the two torments that function as a soft enrage, where if you take too long on a floor, elites will oneshot you.

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