You have failed to convince me on how LFD is bad

[Aurumai-grobbulus]

@Elorael-remulos

“You can’t do X unless you first do 100 hours of Y and we removed A and B as alternatives” is literally forcing people to do something they don’t want to do.

Are we talking about alts? Or our main characters? If the former, then no, no one is forced to level/quest again if they don’t enjoy it. People should stop making alts if they hate the alt experience so much. If the latter, then yeah, that’s WoW. If people have a problem with leveling in an RPG, they should probably find something else to play.

Also, I don’t know what sorts of alternatives you might be referring to. There are multiple ways to level up and people are free to choose whichever one they enjoy the most.

@Elorael-remulos

Aside from the cheese and boosting methods you’ve also railed against, what’s “stopping us” is the sheer difficulty at lower levels right now to find dungeon groups.

I’m not sure what difficulty you’re talking about. Perhaps you’re playing on a realm with a population too small to sustain playability? I’m on a very large realm, but I’ve played on multiple small or faction-death realms (one of which was Whitemane) and I haven’t had much issue finding people to run low-level dungeons with.

Let’s also remember that when dungeon carries are broken, the majority of the long list of players you’d normally see sitting AFK at an instance portal will now be leveling as intended instead of exploiting.

@Elorael-remulos

@Aurumai-grobbulus

Why would I campaign for those things to be removed?

Because checks notes:

@Aurumai-grobbulus

A large world is an intended part of that game. Large worlds take time to traverse.

Those things don’t remove or trivialize the distances in the world. Which is precisely why so many people are always incessently whining about wanting dungeon finder’s teleport. Those all require some kind of investment such as gold for faster mount travel or playing a class that brings that utility to the table, or requiring two people to travel to a summoning stone before others can be teleported. They speed up the process of travel in exchange for some cost, but they don’t remove it from the equation when you need to get to a dungeon.

Those don’t belong in the same category as something that checks notes not only instantly teleports the entire group into the dungeon regardless of where they’re all at, but also costs nothing to do so and can be used infinitely.

If you really do think they belong in the same category, then from here on out I expect you to completely reject the idea of a dungeon finder teleport because you would definitely think that it would be redundant to have that on top of all those things you listed.

[Haraath-tichondrius]

God I wasn’t even gonna bother, but my bear would legit complete gundrak solo in less than 40 minutes. I’d be hard pressed to any group comp of any skill level players who would get stuck in any wrath dungeons for 40 minutes.

I’d happy drag along 4 absolute dregs if it helps them enjoy the game and still complete the run in efficient time.

Is it ideal - not if I’m gearing myself and trying to maximise efficiency but adding 10 minutes to my run isn’t going to ruin my life when I probably would have spent longer than than in lfg forming a group

[Haraath-tichondrius]

Consistency is key

[Haraath-tichondrius]

How does rdf kill server identity if there is no cross realm raiding…

And I quote

@Promaori-arugal

If you have no reputation, yes. The gear gets you in the door, the skill keeps you in as a regular…

Server identity means nothing if you’re geared enough and class knowledgeable enough to have to right spec etc… to get your foot in the door.

Showcasing your said abilities keeps you in raids and builds your identity.

You don’t need dungeons to build a reptuation it was such a flammable strawman a gust of wind ignited it.

[Bubbleherph-ashkandi]

@Promaori-arugal

RDF is garbage because you can’t ignore the bottom of the barrel players who don’t put in effort to learn their class and gear/play appropriately.

No one is forcing you to use RDF if its in the game.

@Promaori-arugal

Your notoriously crap player list can be found by playing the game with others and finding the ones who fit the genre sir.

Imagine keeping a list of everyone you ever group with and rating their performance. Go outside, touch the grass, and feel the sun. You need a break friend.

@Promaori-arugal

RDF makes it easier for casuals and tourists to find a group

Once again, go outside, touch the grass, and feel the sun. You need a break friend.

@Promaori-arugal

Basic mechanics being ignored because someone is there to carry them.

How do they learn and practice these skills, by doing dungeons. If only there was a system that enabled them to run more dungeons more efficiently…

@Etc-heartseeker

But even if I accept that premise, we’re talking about dungeons and that is a pretty appropriate place to learn mechanics like interrupts, CC, etc.

He doesn’t want them to be able to run more dungeons the improve their craft, he wants them to start the game with all the knowledge and skill to play their class.

@Promaori-arugal

it’s 100% about server identity

These mega servers mean you have no server identity. This is a tired argument.

@Promaori-arugal

I have no issue with RDF when you get to vet the group first.

With RDF in the game, you can still create your own groups. This functionality still exists.

@Nachodaddy-sulfuras

If a Gundrak takes 40-120 minutes to complete it’s more than just 1 person it’s likely the whole group, leader included.

This!

@Dumbcake-westfall

I think he’s making up silly problems that nobody has ever had to deal with.

Its the only argument they have against a system that makes the content more accessible.

@Dumbcake-westfall

They were cakewalks. I don’t think you actually played in wrath.

I am convinced he is the tourist into Classic lol.

@Promaori-arugal

Class and raid knowledge gets you a spot.

But we are talking about RDF, not raids.

@Promaori-arugal

You’re forgetting all the core mechanics of the game that the average player does fine that would ensure that achievement be done successfully.

You’re forgetting the level of difficulty in Wrath heroics…

@Promaori-arugal

Server Identity.

Is not real…

@Promaori-arugal

10 man Naxx with 8 players - the content itself is easy for switched on players, but then adding additional difficulty of losing 2 dps to complete it?

What does Naxx have to do with RDF?

@Promaori-arugal

You learn how to play your class in the open-world and dungeons.

So you would agree that people learn their class abilities and mechanics by running more dungeons, therefore, RDF would allow them to run more dungeons efficiently and get more practice.

@Promaori-arugal

Server identity. For god’s sake. RDF removes server identity so that doesn’t happen.

This argument holds no weight. There is no such thing as server identity.

[Lilkursis-wyrmrest-accord]

@Piezuri-benediction

If RDF exists, fewer players want to manually group.

Then it’s very popular. You aren’t saying people will be ‘forced’ to use it are you?
If they were to keep the once daily badge as a reward, you could still assemble a group and queue up. If they don’t add an initiative then there’s no reason to use it, since you’ll still have your LFG tool. If you decide you must use it and complain, that’s on you. You have options.
Besides, I was under the impression that you ‘anti’ folks have guilds and lots of friends to play with.

[Piezuri-benediction]

@Lilkursis-wyrmrest-accord

Then it’s very popular. You aren’t saying people will be ‘forced’ to use it are you?

You do realize my entire point is that the reason anti-LFD people don’t want LFD is because they don’t want other players to be able to play the way they want, and instead want players to play a specific way that allows more control over other players?

I’m pro-LFD. I’m saying a negative thing about anti-LFD posters because that is the position they hold, not me. I made that pretty clear.

[Elorael-remulos]

@Aurumai-grobbulus

If people have a problem with leveling in an RPG, they should probably find something else to play.

If people want to play an MMO, they want to do it where all the other people are. 100 hours of “boring as a desk job” RPG as a precursor for a new player, is a barrier to entry, and something Wrath can ill afford. In Vanilla that was the game, and you were surrounded by people doing things in the same world you were levelling in. So it felt alive and populated. In Wrath they intentionally changed that so that you could find other people to play with far easier, by adding RDF, meaning new players got to experience an MMO earlier. You’re right, if people don’t want to level by questing alone, they can go play another game. But do you know what that means? Insufficient players to justify Classic. No Wrath Era servers. They’ll make a Cataclysm build, force everyone over to it, watch it die, and then end the Classic experiment there, keeping Classic Era servers alive purely as an IP protection.

For Alts, Wrath was the “alt-friendly expansion” and was supposed to be again. If endgame is the only alt-friendly aspect, many fewer people will make alts, meaning that those new players who want to experience multiplayer aspects, won’t even be able to find people by the old chat methods, because no-one will be there to help them out. Encouraging alts so that new players have someone to play with, is an important part of keeping a critical mass of players in the game.

This obsession with “If you don’t like it, go elsewhere” is not only hypocritical because we’re talking about changes to the game that were demanded by anti-RDF people, but is actively detrimental to the life and enjoyment of the game by the players.

@Aurumai-grobbulus

Those things don’t remove or trivialize the distances in the world.

Warlock Summoning doesn’t trivialize distance, but Summoning Stones do? No I know you’re either trolling or suffering from cognitive dissonance.

[Haraath-tichondrius]

@Elorael-remulos

This obsession with “If you don’t like it, go elsewhere” is not only hypocritical because we’re talking about changes to the game that were demanded by anti-RDF people, but is actively detrimental to the life and enjoyment of the game by the players.

It’s also completely anti-social and completely condradicts the crap they keep spewing about community.

What kind of community are the servers going to have if you alienate a large portion of the playerbase by making the game less fun.

Oh wait you can already see, it’s the toxic wasteland called TBC where people only do content for compensation.

[Aurumai-grobbulus]

@Elorael-remulos

100 hours of “boring as a desk job” RPG

That’s extremely dramatic. No one should be playing a game (an entertaining pastime) if they view it as being “boring as a desk job”. We simply have a disagreement on reality in this case; I’m never going to be on your side of the fence of thinking that anything about WoW feels like it’s so boring that I should be paid to do it. That’s literally the antithesis of what a video game is for, and anyone who genuinely feels that way about WoW, I can’t bring myself to find any pity for. Play what you enjoy.

@Elorael-remulos

In Wrath they intentionally changed that so that you could find other people to play with far easier, by adding RDF, meaning new players got to experience an MMO earlier.

Towards the end of Wrath’s content, sure. And as I’ve said many times, in many places here, I wouldn’t complain if they phase-gated it to ICC’s patch as they did originally. I’d be perfectly happy with people getting exactly the same experience that they did before.

@Elorael-remulos

You’re right, if people don’t want to level by questing alone, they can go play another game. But do you know what that means? Insufficient players to justify Classic.

Yeah, I don’t care. I’d rather have this game feel like it was originally designed to, than to appease the people who are too lazy and strip away aspects of the game that I love. Even if it means that a bunch of tourists will leave.

@Elorael-remulos

For Alts, Wrath was the “alt-friendly expansion” and was supposed to be again.

And nothing is changing about that. Even without dungeon finder, Wrath is still by far the most alt-friendly era of the first three. I personally don’t feel like dungeon finder even specifically helps with alts, anyway.

@Elorael-remulos

This obsession with “If you don’t like it, go elsewhere” is not only hypocritical because we’re talking about changes to the game that were demanded by anti-RDF people

I only mean that when people just have absolutely no love for the game at all. If they genuinely don’t like the game they’re playing, they should do something more productive with their time than to torture themselves playing something they dislike. And if dungeon finder is the make or break aspect that makes them enjoy the game or not, then I don’t see why just playing Retail isn’t a perfectly fine solution.

Some of us don’t look at this as a “change” to Wrath, but rather the reversion of a negative change that was made back in the day. And again, I’ll reiterate that I’d be fine with ICC-phase dungeon finder. That is literally the only middle-ground that can exist for many of us who see that the game was never intended to become what it did, and who want to see it remain true to its original vision.

@Elorael-remulos

Warlock Summoning doesn’t trivialize distance, but Summoning Stones do? No I know you’re either trolling or suffering from cognitive dissonance.

You’re confused, friend. I never said either of them do. Actually, the opposite:

@Elorael-remulos

@Elorael-remulos

And yet you’re not campaigning for Flying to be removed. Or summoning stones. Or Warlocks.

@Aurumai-grobbulus

Why would I campaign for those things to be removed?

Because checks notes:

@Elorael-remulos

@Aurumai-grobbulus

A large world is an intended part of that game. Large worlds take time to traverse.

Those things don’t remove or trivialize the distances in the world

Nothing in the game before dungeon finder completely trivialized and devalued the aspect of distance in the world. There are things that greatly cut distances into down, but nothing allows you to avoid distances in the game completely for free.

Mounts and training for mounts cost money, boats have to be travelled to, flight paths have to be traveled to and cost gold to use, Warlock summons and Mage portals both require reagents and also a commitment to playing one specific class, summoning stones require at least 2 party members to make the full trek and it’s level-specific in most cases, the Dalaran ring costs a ton of gold. That’s all of the major distance closing features off the top of my head. None of them are free. Dungeon finder teleports are free and can be used infinitely. They effectively delete the distance between you and the dungeon, which is completely backwards in the context of WoW’s design.

[Elorael-remulos]

@Aurumai-grobbulus

And if dungeon finder is the make or break aspect that makes them enjoy the game or not, then I don’t see why just playing Retail isn’t a perfectly fine solution.

This is the bit where your position doesn’t make sense to me. Because I’m not saying they dislike the game. Many love the endgame only. But new players can’t get to the bits everyone loves (raiding and arenas etc) without going through a horrible slog.

Which means people who would otherwise have loved the endgame never get to see it, because the path there is dark and full of terrors.

@Aurumai-grobbulus

Nothing in the game before dungeon finder completely trivialized and devalued the aspect of distance in the world. There are things that greatly cut distances into down, but nothing allows you to avoid distances in the game completely for free.

So take the FFXIV model then. You can’t RDF a dungeon until you’ve been to it’s entrance. So when you’re teleported, summoned or RDF’d in, you know where in the world this place is.

[Aurumai-grobbulus]

@Elorael-remulos

But new players can’t get to the bits everyone loves (raiding and arenas etc) without going through a horrible slog.

What you call a “horrible slog” is literally the game. And luckily in Wrath, there are more avenues for leveling than before, so the people who don’t enjoy the gameplay of older eras aren’t forced to level exactly the same way.

I just lost The Game.

@Elorael-remulos

Which means people who would otherwise have loved the endgame never get to see it, because the path there is dark and full of terrors.

I don’t know who you’re referring to. How many people aren’t able to make it through the “horrible slog”, and how badly does that affect the game? You’re making claims of things that I’ve never witnessed in all my time playing the game. Even the worst players are perfectly able to hit level cap (I’d know because I genuinely used to be one of them xD)

I can’t imagine that it’s very common for people to literally never hit level cap because they just couldn’t handle any specific aspect of WoW. Unless you’re talking about people who try the game and just realize it isn’t for them. In which case, it’s working as intended.

@Elorael-remulos

So take the FFXIV model then.

I don’t want a model from another game. That’s why I’m playing this one.

@Elorael-remulos

You can’t RDF a dungeon until you’ve been to it’s entrance. So when you’re teleported, summoned or RDF’d in, you know where in the world this place is.

Yeah, that still seems bad in the context of WoW to me. A very minimal one-time cost for an infinite use feature that deletes distance? No thanks. It’s not about knowing where the dungeons is (that’s important too, but not at all the point). It’s about having to travel to where you’re going. Travel takes time, and usually some other investment of effort or resources. That should be retained in Wrath.

[Elorael-remulos]

@Aurumai-grobbulus

What you call a “horrible slog” is literally the game.

No, it really isn’t.

It’s what Vanilla and TBC’s intros were. Even in Vanilla, the majority of “the game” was spent at max level. In TBC it really became “Levelling is what you to do get to the good stuff”. And in Wrath it was “Levelling is the thing you have to slog through to get to the real game”.

We aren’t in Vanilla any more. Treating it like Vanilla in Northrend is going to detroy the new player experience.

@Aurumai-grobbulus

That’s why I’m playing this one.

And yet, you’re asking nay, demanding, and then receiving actual changes. You can’t have it both ways. “I want this to change, but I don’t want changes anyone else thinks are good” is basically hypocritical.

@Aurumai-grobbulus

A very minimal one-time cost for an infinite use feature that deletes distance?

As opposed to summoning stones that some people will always get summoned from and never go to the entrance? Seems like you’re fighting for an theory, not a reality.

@Aurumai-grobbulus

Travel takes time, and usually some other investment of effort or resources. That should be retained in Wrath.

Vanilla in Northrend again. Wrath was literally where they removed that mindset. The whole point was to make the game more accessible especially during levelling.

You don’t want “some other game’s model”. I don’t want some other expansion’s model.

[Aurumai-grobbulus]

@Elorael-remulos

No, it really isn’t.

Yeah, it really is. Whether you hate low-level content or not, you’re playing a video game when you’re doing the quests in the starting zones and queueing for sub-cap BGs and running dungeons. How much you dislike it or how many times you’ve done it are irrelevant in the context of WoW’s content. If you hate it, that’s fine, but it’s a personal problem and you should deal with it personally by doing something else with your time that you actually enjoy. If low-level content wasn’t part of the game, they’d remove it. It remained a necessary part of the game throughout TBC and Wrath and Cataclysm because it’s part of the game. No one is forced to play alts if they don’t like it.

@Elorael-remulos

the majority of “the game” was spent at max level.

That changes absolutely nothing. Leveling is part of the WoW experience and that’s why it was created, and why it remained a mandatory part of the experience until Activision got their filthy hands on Blizzard.

@Elorael-remulos

We aren’t in Vanilla any more.

No we’re not. We’re about to be in Wrath, where leveling was still a mandatory part of the experience.

@Elorael-remulos

And yet, you’re asking nay, demanding, and then receiving actual changes.

Wait, what?

@Elorael-remulos

“I want this to change, but I don’t want changes anyone else thinks are good” is basically hypocritical.

I don’t dislike your wants because they’re yours. I dislike them because they’re bad.

I’m not opposed to changes being made to the game.

@Elorael-remulos

As opposed to summoning stones that some people will always get summoned from and never go to the entrance?

Yes, as opposed to that. Summoning stones function perfectly in line with the design philosophy of the game, whether a few selfish people exploit their party members or not. There’s nothing wrong with the way that dungeon traveling functions now. If there are people who are adamant about being a dead weight to their parties and the other 4 players are willing to put up with it, then I don’t see a problem here.

@Elorael-remulos

Vanilla in Northrend again. Wrath was literally where they removed that mindset.

Correction: 3.3.0 was when they removed “vAnIlLa In NoRtHrEnD”. And the devs rightfully see it as a mistake in hindsight.

@Elorael-remulos

I don’t want some other expansion’s model.

That’s rich, because not having dungeon finder is more true to Wrath than having it by any and all objective measures. <50% of the lifetime and <25% of the content. Unless theres some other objective measure you can think of?

[Novum-kirtonos]

Here is the idiot response that always has to take the argument to something it isnt. Yku cant stick to the argument because you have realized you are in the wrong side. So instead you go with what if this and what if that. You campare it to something else and then debate the something else. Stick to rdf and thats it. Its not instant gratification.

[Jetfuel-netherwind]

@Illüm-grobbulus

Please explain to me why it’s so bad for the game. I experienced it firsthand in wrath and felt like it was a good fit.

Course you did. You’re a tank. Try making a frost mage and seeing how good the system is.

[Novum-kirtonos]

Nope havent failed. Was never given the opportunity. Bkizz was quoted saying " according to the players they spoke to". That is the problem. They spoke with who? Who is this moron that they spoke to? Did they have another person that had a different view? You know they didnt. Because every single issue that is brought up by anti RDF is easily destroyed and PROVEN to be false.

[Vaithe-herod]

@Jeddite-grobbulus

“Shut up,” explained the highly-qualified Lead Designer.

“Enough people in my guild on Classic Season of Mastery want RDF removed, so I’m going to remove it. Also, don’t blame me, blame my boss, because I was only 75% of the decision.” A synopsis of his twitter replies on the subject.

[Euphorazine-pagle]

@Novum-kirtonos

Yku cant stick to the argument because you have realized you are in the wrong side

There isn’t anything to argue. RDF doesn’t ADD anything to the game, it just lets people run dungeons more frequently. It doesn’t ADD content. There isn’t any reason for it to exist. It’s just a quality of life improvement that isn’t necessary. With or without RDF, the game will still function.

Without RDF, Questing is still probably faster for most people than running dungeons
With RDF, dungeon spam is probably faster for leveling.

Without RDF, the most consistent way to earn badges is to have a social group to work together with, and being apart of a consistent raid group
With RDF, you can grind enough dungeons to satisfy your badge needs

The only arguments for RDF is to help people who play by themselves. Every MMO on the market has automated grouping. It’s not going to kill classic to be the one MMO who takes a chance and leaves it out. Vanilla and TBC did fine without automated grouping. WotLK will be the same.

[Evelýn-faerlina]

@Euphorazine-pagle

Vanilla and TBC did fine without automated grouping.

Its sad how common this delusion is. Small group content is definitively not fine in TBC classic, and hasn’t been for quite a while. But it takes being empathic with other people and looking outside one’s bubble.