You cannot fake numerical values, I'm sorry

Community General Discussion
21

We also don’t know the inner workings of why some staff are being paid more or less than others for ‘the same job’. We don’t know what contracts are being signed, it looks bad on paper based on what is being reported, but honestly none of us here have any idea what is going on. Until the courts have had their day, only than will we know what is going on.

There may also be laws we are not aware of, for example I live in Australia and a non contracted position has to pay the same for everyone working, but a specific contractual agreement can be anything for anyone, you agree to the pay, you sign the paperwork and that is that. The later may be the same for some states in the US, which is why some companies prefer to setup their company and higher in certain states because of certain laws or tax exemptions that benefit the company.

It’s a crappy thing to do to higher in another state because you can pay someone less for the same job, and I cannot believe I am saying this, but don’t hate on the rich or the large companies for exploiting the laws that are in place, instead you need to hate on the federal and state governments for having these loopholes in place and allowing this to happen to begin with.

Like if the US federal laws were done in a way to ensure everyone is treated equally than Jeff Bezos wouldn’t be qualifying for child support payments. Instead he does qualify, but is also still able to afford to pay to go into space, that’s not a Jess Bezos issue, that’s a government issue that lets him do that.

And no doubt any one of you also do what you can to get more benefits at tax time, we all do, none of us want to pay a cent more than we are owed, unfortunately for 99% of us we are not in a position to write off our taxes and still look poor.

Blizzard are no different to anyone else, find the loopholes that benefit them and Bob’s your uncle.

Sad thing though is that there are probably going to be negative consequences for Blizzard and instead of cutting the pay from the big wigs, they are just going to let some staff go and say some crap like “Now we cannot afford to pay all our staff and some will be without a job” to make them look like the victims.

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only by some people. wonder what kind of people those tend to be.

citation needed, and don’t come back with some evopsych nonsense about hunters vs gatherers

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23

if employee A (with tech skill) does X amount of work and gets paid $50 an hour.
Then employee B (with the exact same tech skill) does the same amount of work and gets paid $30 and hour.

If the only difference between A and B is gender, then you have a problem.
It’s up to the state to point out as many examples of this disparity as possible to prove their case. This all depends on the examples they find.

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24

I understand the point your trying to make here and in a vacuum I agree.

But in context I find it hard to believe that enough Blizzard Women were slacking off or underperforming compared to the Blizzard Men that it would actually skew their data to display as gender based discrimination if nothing of the sort were going on.

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By actual economists, you mean.
Not to mention many statistics you see, will either not compare the exact same job, but will compare a CEO to that of a Elementary school teacher and determine there is a pay gap.

They will compare the “exact” same job, but omit details such as education, hours worked, specialization, years worked, and personal negotiations with the boss. One of the apprentices I worked with in the past, earned more than me, why? Because he have actually worked as a bricklayer before, he have experience and only just started taking a professional education to get more indepth. He have more experience than me as a bricklayer and thus he could negotiate for a better pay. We are both men, by the way.

The common tendency for men to be more aggressive in their pursuits. And I have to mention, a common tendency does not mean all mean, all it mean is that it is more common for a man to be aggressive and confrontational, so they are more likely to ask for raises and promotions.

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Except that wasn’t my point at all. I was only showing that the OPs assumption that this is something you can determine from some “end of the year earnings” report is false.

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27

So what you are saying. If the company just had a union all this would be nonsense?

Job title , with years seniority package worth. Then add a base pay per hour average, but…
Unions have rules and company’s bottom line the amount of time to support.
Then you get paid by net worth.

You just want every Joe off the street to make the same as Jain the owners fam. Without regard for net worth.

So everyone is a contest winner.
Step right up Johnny. Spin the wheel to see what job you do today.
Ha ha haha ha…
And you are

28

Every time I see this particular line of argument, I’m always reminded of Women’s soccer for some strange reason…

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29

many guilty have been set free…many innocent have been put behind bars.
the courts arent infallible…or free of corruption.
So I take any instruction in here to wait on a verdict with a bottle of salt.
Even if blizzard gets out of any real punishment, that doesnt nullify their guilt…which is BLINDINGLY clear to everyone who actually took 5 minutes to examine anything about this case.

:+1:
Exactly what many in the business, including men, have been saying the last few days.

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30

That men ask for promotions/negotiate salaries more often than women is a common idea, agreed by many feminists themselves. Here’s an article from harvard discussing idea of women less self promoting https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/02/men-better-than-women-at-self-promotion-on-job-leading-to-inequities/

Here’s an article of a chapter excerpt from a book on the issue, posted on the world economic forum
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/04/women-are-still-not-asking-for-pay-rises-here-s-why/

If you google the topic you’ll see tons of stuff about it, with some rebuttals. And then those rebuttals have counter rebuttals. I’m not invested enough to post all of current research, but the idea is there, many women seem to agree, so it’s not an otherworldly concept. Though, whether it’s true or not, I cannot say.

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31

There is a depressing irony in the idea that a company whose game is being crushed under the weight of player metrics is routinely ignoring employee metrics in favor of buddy system promotions.

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32

:face_with_raised_eyebrow:
wait…wut?
If its a myth…it doesnt exist.
but you then tell us WHY it happens, thereby admitting that its NOT a myth, but quite real.

Not true at all.
Just because men are more aggressive, it does not follow that IF women also get aggressive that they too will be treated equally.
If anything this current case against Blizzard proves on every level that women ARENT being treated literally as equals on the job.

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33

one more reason I have always HATED partiality.
It doesnt belong in the workplace. it doesnt really belong anywhere.
If my child is a murderous savage, they should get no better treatment from the system than your child would.
Yeah, I love mine more…as you do yours, but justice should actually BE blind when its being dispensed.

On the job we’re there to WORK. To do the job. Partiality just turns a workplace into a daytime soap opera more than anything else. I lost count of the times Ive chewed some manager out over showing BLATANT favoritism in front of a group of his underlings. Such a disgusting thing to see where you know one employee is excelling at their job…working hard and long hours and doing really great…only to be ignored by this clown of a manager who gives a job to some moron who cant tie his own shoes right or get to work on time more than once in a calendar week.

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They are referring to the people who presented the data in a false light and claimed the difference was purely due to gender, instead a host of many other factors. Although, even when you account for that host of many other factors, there is still a disparity between genders. But that disparity isn’t “50-70 cents on the dollar!”

Stuff like that kinda irks me, because if people kept to the facts they could probably effect a change that works. Instead, they go with hyperbole and undercut their own position.

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35

You cannot fake numerical values, I’m sorry

If you actually believe that I weep for the future.

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36

Yes. But it happens less because:

  • When women manage to overcome being socialized since birth to not make waves and get along and not ask for what they want and do directly ask for promotions and raises they’re seen as “aggressive” and “bossy” and “ungrateful” by their managers and peers and pay a social cost in lost networking and natural promotion opportunities (study conducted by LeanIn.Org and McKinsey & Co)(Bowles et al, Carnegie Mellon)(https://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/lean-out-the-dangers-for-women-who-negotiate)
  • And then when they do ask, they still don’t get them (Artz, Goodall, Oswald, Warwick Economic Institute) so they get discouraged and stop trying (https://www.vox.com/identities/2016/9/29/13096310/wage-gap-women-negotiate-lean-in)
  • Also men get unasked-for raises and promotions more often than women and are routinely assigned higher profile and more lucrative work than women (touched on in a couple of the studies and articles above)

Which are said rebuttals you mentioned :laughing:

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37

Yeah, you are absolutely correct.
It is just a slip of the tongue when one says that the pay gap is a myth.
It is not so much that the pay gap itself is a myth, it is just that the reasons given for the pay gap are usually a myth.

Women are not paid less because they are women, is basically what some hails as the reason for the pay gap, that reasoning is the myth, not the pay gap itself.

That said, companies are usually set to make money, not be moral compasses. It is up to the consumers to determine whether we agree or disagree with a company’s policies.

We do not like that big clothing companies uses sweat shops in other countries to make their clothes? Stop buying the clothes.

We do not like that big gaming corporations abuses its customers with heinous monitization schemes? Stop buying the video games.

If a woman has economical value to a corporation, if she perform exceptionally well and she can show that she brings big money to a company, then she has negotiation power, same with a man.

The thing is, men are more likely to take advantage of that. Men are also more likely to be ready to just switch jobs right there and then.

Men are also more likely to find work in private sectors where the power to aggressively pursue and negotiate is even more so important.

Personally, I don’t think that is something that laws and governments should change. I personally think that governments should ensure that everyone is paid a minimum salary that allows an individual to live a dignified life as a sheer minimum. That is being able to pay your rent, at the very least buy a cheap tv and/or pc (Not necessarily both at the same time) and pay for phone bill and pay for insurance when living in America. That is the government’s duty - anything beyond that the government should not involve themselves in.

People should then be able to negotiate higher salaries on their own whims.

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Hey now don’t use facts and studies, that’s not playing fair :stuck_out_tongue: lol.

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39

if only it where all that simple. I like where your going with some of your logic. However it’s just not feasible. You are dealing with capitalizim and if it can make a extra few million a year just by looking the other way on these social in-equalities that are baked into the industry and into our collective subconsious it sure as well will. For as long as they can before people get wise to it. If it can be skirted under the rug, they will do it for as long as they can. They will mis-direct you away for as long as they can. Because they value money alone and they will never ever pay attention to it until they are given no choice but too.

That also would be why we have a island made of plastic bottles. Cause if you think you procrastinate, honey you have nothen on capitalizm.

40

Cheesus crisps these studies are silly.

One of them pretends that one can be a full-time home parents while also expecting to get a long, massively succesful career as a CEO. It requires more than 60 hours of work each week to be hyper-succesful in your career.

No, you can not expect to be a full time mother (nor a father) and have that kind of work hour.

Furthermore, yet again it bows into: “Uuuh, but women feel pressured to do tis or tat” yeah and so f- what? Men do too, and men push forward despite the adversity.

There is still this presumptuous attitude of, which is also given away in these studies, that men are just handed everything on a silver platter. Helvete no, most of the men work through the hardships, they risk the rejections, they build connection through chatter, hell… some even cheat the system.

Gah, these studies bothers me.

“Women are so often rejected and called names they are discouraged, we gotta hold our hands over them and protect their little hearts.”

Cry me a river.

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