They retconned them to an extent, but the point still stands that everything post it has just been a confusing pile of garbage.
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I don’t know, I’m a huge, long time fan of the lore and I think that statement is a bit hyperbolic. There are huge gaps in the lore for sure but that doesn’t make it a pile of garbage. We only have a small piece of the puzzle to form an opinion on the overall picture and that would skew anyone’s assessment of the story.
They way they tell the story in chunks and broken up into over a dozen racial, faction PoV’s doesn’t help the process. They need to start writing a linear story and not a fragmented one. It’s the fragmentation that causes fandom discourse.
The story is predictable in that even the predictions of the biggest letdowns (like AnduinXSylvanas and that sylvanas will become queen of stormwind) is gonna be miles better than what we are going to get.
this is the first I’m hearing of this lol wut? where does this theory even come from can you elaborate? (is this relating to those weird Scarlet Crusade pamphlets about them being secret lovers? you know those were just one crazy Scarlet’s opinion right?)
Their back and forth in those shadowlands cutscenes etc, she truly seems to care for him and stuff. But then again its less of a theory and more that it will probably make more sense than whatever we will get.
No I am not referring to the scarlet propaganda. But It wouldnt surprise me as they have kept using the “Prophecy” and hints of what is to come etc.
she does care about him for sure. She knew Anduin Lothar, the guy Anduin was named after. She knew Varian, liked him enough to go to Stormwind as an ongoing pledge to serve the Alliance. i think that angle of lore needs to be played up more than the fictional suggestion of romance between them because that was just a joke the writers wrote to make fun of fandom.
Robert Brooks wrote both A Good War and Son of the Wolf and I think he makes thematic parallels between Anduin and Sylvanas and I wouldn’t put it aside that he also helped Christie Golden write these new cinematics between Sylvanas and Anduin. They want us to see a parallel between Anduin and Ranger-General Sylvanas for the emotional pay off down to road of Sylvanas possibly saving Anduin from the Jailer. Anduin is a projection of her better self. I wish more people talked about the writing instead of whining about the writing in every single thread.
She has this emotional line in A Good War where she says “I died for that Banner!” about the Alliance… I think that needs more explanation before Alliance characters can sympathize with her. She believes she died for the Alliance cause, yet that was only a footnote in a novella that was not required reading. They need to expand on that to make her more humanizing.
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Now that you mention it, all of my replies got thanos snapped.
Oh well. They weren’t worth much anyways. Just arguing with Kaleon.
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Isn’t there a book?
I think Luxio is referring to the whole notion that what we DO know about her has been so heavily retconned/rewritten to jam the Jailer in to her narrative, it’s hard to know what’s true about her life in general.
I could be wrong though.
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WoW is just in dire need of some sort of continuity oversight.
The Sylvanas in Edge of Night, and the Sylvanas in the Silverpine questline are antithetical to eachother and that short story leads directly into that narrative.
You could to a point say she was just playing politican and was lying through her teeth about caring for the Forsaken and their sacrifice. But then there’s a point where she is leading them into battle. Like, literally, at the front heading the charge. That’s not the behavior of someone who’s stated goal is to put as many undead bodies in between her and danger as possible.
Then again maybe the MM Hunter who thought it was wise to powerslide at a Frost DK also doesn’t understand you’re supposed to get behind bulwarks.
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Sylvanas was always terrible and looked out for herself and betrayed everyone around her if it helped her out.
The one and only good thing about BfA is that Sylvanas was consistent. She was just out in the open now because she had to be rather than hiding in the shadows.
Her fans seem to ignore this because they like her evil acts but not facing repercussions for it, like she seems to KIND OF be now.
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Because the players are faceless, voiceless, avatars who by default do not and cannot push the story forward on their own. We are basically half-characters in the story. Avatars with literally zero story agency who are marched around by actual characters to progress the story forward.
The difference between complaining about a character and a non-character is huge and to try and conflate the two to make people criticizing Sylvanas look like hypocrites is disingenuous AT BEST.
You know, I’ve said before I want Sylvanas’s fate to be that of Scar’s from the Lion King with the Forsaken playing the role of the hyenas.
But honestly - if there’s any silver lining to her inevitable redemption storyline it’ll be that people like you will be more mad than me.
Pretending there was never anything interesting or nuanced about Sylvanas is just materially incorrect. You’re allowed to have just never cared for the character. Not everything can be everybody’s cup of tea. But saying she was always purely reprehensible and had no complex characterization is a dishonest or delusional take.
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If you could point to where I said those things I’d appreciate it. But you can’t.
Because that’s absolutely not what I believe and you can find me saying as such as recently as two weeks ago on a different thread on here:
Sylvanas was always awful. Always self-serving. Always willing to betray literally anyone and everyone if it meant getting ahead herself. Even when she was alive she was arrogant and cocky. She has not changed since Frozen Throne in this regard. And the one thing BfA did good, as I said, was to keep that part of her consistent.
The thing people have always hated about her is that she has immense plot armor that prevented her from facing any consequence for her actions. And it took 17 years before they started even SLIGHTLY having her face backlash for her own actions. Thrall’s Balls (Ugh I hate that I can’t swear here) they built auto-lives for her INTO THE STORY.
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This is incorrect and clearly a misguided attempt at dividing the two. The issue at question, what was being brought up, were the actual actions involved. Anyone with consistency can see that. Their context is different, but it was an objective complaint rather than a contextualized one.
And what is it at worst? Lol
Always people with a weak stance that immediately cry disingenuous.
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I just hate that the moral of her short story of “she didn’t need to kill herself because she still had something to unlive for” turned into “and that something is taking orders from the Death Satan who empowered the man who ruined her.”
Kinda gives me an ugly impression that the game’s accidentally saying “yes, the world would be better off if you killed yourself” in Sylvanas’s case.
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no? there is a sentence of her meeting Anduin Lothar in Tides of War. There is a flashback chapter in Arthas Rise of the Lich King that just deals with Arthas’s assault of the elfgates and the moments leading up to her death. In edge of Night there is one flashback to her ordering a dozen Farstriders to stay behind on a ridge so that they can by time to evacuate more civilians. There’s nods to her time as Ranger-General. One of the biggest in game nods is the Blood Elf Heritage armor quest which shows Ranger-General Sylvanas as a selfless hero. There’s Renthar Hawkspears own personal opinion of Ranger General Sylvanas in Shadows of the Sun, where he paints her as a human sympathizer but he was also possibly in love with her. And Koltira’s dialogue in Shadowlands where he remarks that “She gave her life to save her kingdom, her people, and for her efforts she was raised into undeath.” so really there’s no bad opinion on Ranger-general Sylvanas. But there’s literally very little content of her life pre-undeath.
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Its not at all. You exactly tried to argue that people were not upset that the players had done ‘terrible’ things but are only upset when Sylvanas does it. Clearly implying people are being hypocrites.
The players are not actual named characters in the story. There is not a named Commander of Draenor, there is not one named wielder of the Heart of Azeroth, there is not one named Maw Walker. They are faceless, voiceless, avatars who do not push the story forward on their own. They are tools the other actual characters use to do so or have to stop from preventing them from doing something.
There’s a reason stuff like Chronicle credits raid/dungeon clears to nameless champions of the Horde and Alliance.
That you’re being intentionally obtuse to obfuscate the issue because you’re upset people are criticizing Sylvanas.
To be fair, I did complain about the horde player character canonically having to be part of BFA. Like, a hell of a lot. It was enough to ruin even the non-faction war parts of the expansion for me, because everything was fogged over in a cloud of “your character is a bad person.”
It was enough that I scoffed at Magni’s final line about the player being the hero of Azeroth because narratively it felt two-faced.
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